Author Topic: stumped, bike stumbles after short ride  (Read 1872 times)

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Offline thelastvintage

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stumped, bike stumbles after short ride
« on: March 12, 2013, 08:04:21 pm »
Hello forum, Ive lurked on this site since first buying my 1978 cb 750f. It's pretty much been a cafe conversion after a mechanic tried taking me to the bank to do simple fixes. (fork seals, replace cables, oil change set points).So my current problem is stumbling after a short ride, maybe 5-10 minutes. I adjusted the valves,adjusted the points put new plugs. the bike starts fine, idles great and the first few minutes rides amazing. no problems throughout the powerband(plug chop reads great). At random after a few minutes of riding the bike will start stumbling from idle to about 3000 rpms where it really doesnt want to climb anymore. Adjustments are all in spec, carbs have been cleaned and are currently shimmed at the needle, jetted to 130's with roughly 2 turns out on the idle screws. no change on idle jet. Bike does have uni pod filters and a straight pipe that has a 1.65' i.d   baffle

please any suggestions would help im stumped.

Offline ekpent

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Re: stumped, bike stumbles after short ride
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2013, 08:44:40 pm »
Fuel lines routed correctly,tank lid vent and petcock clean and flowing enough fuel ?

Offline thelastvintage

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Re: stumped, bike stumbles after short ride
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2013, 08:48:51 pm »
yes, tank is venting(from what I can tell, tried running it without the gas cap as well same problem) fuel line is router correctly , new fuel filter and it's getting gas. I should also note, that If i park it for a while then start it back up it will run fine then after a few minutes do the same thing.

Offline ekpent

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Re: stumped, bike stumbles after short ride
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2013, 09:03:19 pm »
Still sounds like fuel starvation a little,did you say you installed an inline fuel filter. It still has points and not a Dyna set-up correct. Are all 4 head pipes equally hot as in sizzle a wet rag easily ?

Offline thelastvintage

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Re: stumped, bike stumbles after short ride
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2013, 09:10:33 pm »
yes, i put a new in line fuel filter . It also is still on a standard points system.  I checked the pipes today after giving it another go all pipes are equally hot and all 4 plugs are a mild white/black color indicating an okay burn.

Offline ekpent

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Re: stumped, bike stumbles after short ride
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2013, 09:13:51 pm »
Lets see if an ignition condenser expert rolls in here sometime to give an opinion or maybe search what the symptoms of a bad one are,think I have been lucky with all mine..

Offline dirtdawg

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Re: stumped, bike stumbles after short ride
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2013, 09:57:32 pm »
Coil could be breaking down. ???
78 CB550k
2000 gl1500 CSC TRIKE

Offline lucky

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Re: stumped, bike stumbles after short ride
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2013, 01:29:39 am »
The coils are not the problem, they almost never fail. Forget that.(Poodle with a pink bow?)LOL..lol

The F models were very stingy with the gas. EPA type II system.
But a 130 main is excessive. It had 105 main jets -stock. Try 115's to start.
Your bike has pods.
Straight pipe with baffle. (What kind? Fiberglass stuffed?
I would bet money that nothing was done to the slide needles.
You cannot just open pilot/ mixture screws 2 turns and think that will cover the midrange problems. It won't.

Does it pop or back fire at any time?
The needles on the F model are not adjustable.

You are going to need to put shims/washers under those slide needles and
increase the idle jet from #35's to #38's?  I would start there.

I would go with one .020 shim on the slide needles and make sure they sit on top of the pocket in the bottom of the slide. The pocket is .012 deep so that would raise the slide needle .032 thousandths total Ot try to get some 1976 slide needles and make sure to compare them to the F model slide needles and check the taper of those needles. At least with some needles with clip grooves you will not have to use shims or washers.

Turn the mixture screws down to one turn.

When you say stumble you mean trying to give it quick throttle it wants to bog down or quit. Right? It is because it is lean from 1/4 throttle to 3/4 throttle.
There is some cross over of the main jet into 3/4 throttle but by then it is too late.




« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 01:44:52 am by lucky »

Offline trueblue

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Re: stumped, bike stumbles after short ride
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2013, 03:48:17 am »
The condensers tend to cause running issues in higher RPMs and it usually gets worse as the engine heats up.  To test the condensers you need an old style analoge ohms meter, connect one lead to the body of the condenser and the other to the lead of it.  The needle should jump towards zero then climb to infinity, if it doesn't then the condenser is crook.  What the condenser does is smooth out the voltage ripple caused by the colapsing magnetic field in the coil.  This ripple when unchecked causes the points to arc and effectively reduces the dwell time, which is what causes the issues at higher RPM.  Normally the engine will still idle fine if you have a crook condenser, but I have seen one that wouldn't run at all because the condenser shorted out completely.
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Offline trueblue

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Re: stumped, bike stumbles after short ride
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2013, 04:17:40 am »
Pull the hose off the carbs, hold it in a container, turn on the fuel tap and see if it runs free.This will tell you if there is a fuel blockage ;).
1979 CB650Z
Nothing can be idiot proofed, the world keeps producing better idiots.
Electronic Guages for your SOHC 4

Offline Ridgerunner

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Re: stumped, bike stumbles after short ride
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2013, 05:32:15 am »
Replace the condenser.  It's a cheap fix even if it doesn't cure the problem.  I've experienced this twice in my life.  Once the thing failed only after the engine ran for 20-30 minutes.  I spent hundreds on the wrong parts.  The next time it went in my favor.  I bought rare, normally expensive car, at a very low price because they couldn't get it running.  I replaced the condenser ($2.00? back then) and it ran just fine. :)
"Good sense is the enemy of creativity" Pablo Piacaso

Offline thelastvintage

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Re: stumped, bike stumbles after short ride
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2013, 01:07:03 pm »
i switched around the condensers and put a single piece of tube from the petcock to the carbs(no filter) , i went for a ride and i was able to push the bike for about 20-30 miles keeping it up in the higher rpms. after those miles it started acting up again same symptoms but took way longer to happen. one of my points is sparking a bit so i went ahead and ordered new points and condensers . they should be here tomorrow. thanks to those who posted ill chime back in

Offline steam-powered man

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Re: stumped, bike stumbles after short ride
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2013, 01:21:14 pm »
these bikes like/need a good, strong spark.  maybe the battery is fine for starting, then loses it's oomph after a bit of running?  spark advancer functioning well, and clean?   i'd check the charging system performance at various rpm's (and listen to lucky). 
searching for a dr350se

Offline thelastvintage

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Re: stumped, bike stumbles after short ride
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2013, 01:49:57 pm »
hey Lucky thanks for the reply, i missed part of that reply on my phone viewing
id have to order 115's , i only have 130' 140's and 105's in my spare parts bin.
as far as the needles go they have two .02 shims making it .04 - the .012
i made the baffle which is 8inches long, flutes from the 2.2 id to 1.65id then back to 2.2 flute. it's wrapped in course stainless steel scrubber material.
 there's no popping or backfiring which use to happen before the cafe conversion, it was jetted with 135's, shimmed the same. Also when i say stumble , yes i mean bogs down and wants to die.

Offline thelastvintage

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Re: stumped, bike stumbles after short ride
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2013, 06:12:31 pm »
so i went ahead and replaced the condensors and re checked the point adjustment.also turned the screws in 1 turn. everything seems great. bike starts and idles fine runs for a few miles then bogs down and cuts power.  I went on a short 5-10 mile ride and it  started bogging as i approached a stop. at the stop the bike cut out wouldn't start , no power at all. after about 20 minues on the road side waiting, i kick started it and rode it another 3 or so miles before it started showing symptoms. it would hesitate when twisting the throttle to the point of dying out. are we leaning more on a coil now?

Offline Vinhead1957

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Re: stumped, bike stumbles after short ride
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2013, 06:18:29 pm »
Check all electrical connections. I had the same problem and chased it down to what I should have checked first the battery ground was loose from riding!

Offline lucky

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Re: stumped, bike stumbles after short ride
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2013, 07:27:14 pm »
The problem with this motorcycle is that all of the remedies are all over the place.

No logical thinking.
Like...Try this,no try this... like a squirrel going back and forth all over the road.
Electrical was attacked first. (new plugs)

1. Before ANY work is done with the carb,all other issues must be resolved.
2. Points and condensers should be replaced as a set ,together at the same time.
A volt ohm meter even analog cannot measure how many microfarads the condenser
has or is left to be used.

Lets start from the beginning.

Engines can have these manifestations from being lean and trying to seize up and popping or banging intermittently while idling can be from a bent valve.
I am not saying that is the problem with this bike.

So starting from the bottom: DO NOT SKIP STEPS!

Compression check.
Valve adjustment.
Points adjustment.
Make sure the advancer is not rusted up. Easy to see and test.

Gas tank clean.
Fuel valve will produce a flow of gas.
Check all 4 float bowl drains to make sure fuel is going into each carb.
Just loosen the float bowl screw a little with a rag held under the carb and make sure fuel flows when you loosen the screw.

Make sure all mixture screws are open the same amount.
With the air cleaner off make sure all 4 carbs slides will open when you turn the throttle. Make sure they all start to open at the same time.

Re attach the air filter and start the bike.
Get the motorcycle to idle.
 Make sure that it is not popping or back firing while idling.


FACTS: 1978 CB750F

Uni pod filters.
"Bike does have uni pod filters and a straight pipe that has a 1.65' i.d   baffle."
This could be the problem because if 4 tubes all dump into one 1.65 inch tube it is very restricted.

He does not say it is a 4 into 1 exhaust.
Floats 14.5mm No mention of this at any time. Previous "mechanic" ????

Some F models during this time had the accelerator pump and nozzle system.
No mentions of this at any time in this thread.

Stock main jets 105mm  (told you they were stingy with this model)
Idle jets #35 stock.
Needle non adjustable. EPA type II


Questions:

Is this a 4 into 1 exhaust or a homebuilt something or other?
Do these carbs have the accelerator pump and nozzle system?
Were the floats set using a measuring device?
Were the float needles replaced at any time?
If they were just "polished" all bets are off.


This is my conclusion: You may not like it.
All of the parts that you have replaced like spark plugs and points and condensers
were a good investment.

The carbs need to come off because there are too many unknowns (float levels) including the previous mechanics abilities.

The float needles if all metal need to be replaced and if they are the metal needles they need to have new seats too.
If they are the rubber tipped needles then just the needles need replacing.

The accelerator pump system if it has it must all be in good working order and squirting fuel.

We need to know what the exhaust system is. A photo or something.
The baffle is ok but the part between the baffle and header pipe is unknown to me.

BTW none of this is your fault.
You inherited these problems because of other people that have worked on the bike.
Like...Too many cooks in one kitchen.


There needs to be consistancy and linear thinking.
A checklist mentality not skipping any steps at all.

One other thing...
If there are two shims on each slide needle it is going to be too rich probably.
You did not say if the shims sit on top of the pocket.
Getting a shim that sits in the pocket but will fit the needle is doubtful.
Some general confusion here.
It would be great to have a photo of those needles.
Measure all of the shims and see if they were deburred and if they al measure the same thickness exactly. Maybe someone just put washers/shims on without checking the thickness.

Trust me - if you go step by step you will run head into something that is messed up.
Never fails.

"So and so told me he thought it was ok" That kind of thing.



















« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 08:09:01 pm by lucky »

Offline lucky

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Re: stumped, bike stumbles after short ride
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2013, 08:14:54 pm »
Check all electrical connections. I had the same problem and chased it down to what I should have checked first the battery ground was loose from riding!

You are so right.
Simple things like this can drive a good mechanic crazy.
A visual inspection of the battery cables may not reveal if they are loose!!!

Offline thelastvintage

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Re: stumped, bike stumbles after short ride
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2013, 10:19:30 pm »
thanks guys, Ill get some pictures and measurements of the shims this friday(ill drop the shimming to 1) ill post some thorough info along with it. I'm three weeks away from police academy so my time is pretty limited.

Offline lucky

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Re: stumped, bike stumbles after short ride
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2013, 12:47:35 am »
thanks guys, Ill get some pictures and measurements of the shims this friday(ill drop the shimming to 1) ill post some thorough info along with it. I'm three weeks away from police academy so my time is pretty limited.

Thanks, and good luck at the police academy too!

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: stumped, bike stumbles after short ride
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2013, 12:58:25 pm »
Serious question- did the bike run OK in stock form before you started hacking it up?
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