Author Topic: The story of Zinc, and why SOHC4 engines need it in oil.  (Read 24468 times)

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: The story of Zinc, and why SOHC4 engines need it in oil.
« Reply #50 on: December 03, 2015, 11:14:03 am »
The tech paper on 4405 states not to use it with wet clutches.
Which leads me to ask what ZZDP additives are safe to use with wet clutches on our bikes? And does their tech paper state that specifically?

Sadly, most of the ZDDP additives also include a long-chain slicker (much like the old STP) to carry it. These are pretty easily recognized in the bottle: ZDDP additive alone is like water (5w oil, almost) while Rislone is about 20w-like oil. I have some "pure" zddp in little 2 ounce bottles, and it looks like water.
The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: The story of Zinc, and why SOHC4 engines need it in oil.
« Reply #51 on: December 03, 2015, 01:56:04 pm »
That sucks. There are no Spectro distributors within a 100 mile radius of KC.  >:(
What's a kid to do these days with an old CB and nothing but gasohol and oil with no zinc/Ph??
This is frustrating.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: The story of Zinc, and why SOHC4 engines need it in oil.
« Reply #52 on: December 03, 2015, 03:31:57 pm »
That sucks. There are no Spectro distributors within a 100 mile radius of KC.  >:(
What's a kid to do these days with an old CB and nothing but gasohol and oil with no zinc/Ph??
This is frustrating.


I hear you about the Spectro. It is EXCELLENT oil, but it seems to be real hard to find.
An engine I just rebuilt showed very similar lube traits, though. I asked the owner what oil he has been using, and he said it is the AMSOIL motorcycle oil (not the "V-Twin" type) synthetic in 20w50. His tranny looks like it has maybe 5000 miles on it, but the speedo showed over 67k. The valve guides had finally worn enough to leak a little oil, so he had me to a rebuild. Heck, even his cam chain feels young!
The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline ofreen

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Re: The story of Zinc, and why SOHC4 engines need it in oil.
« Reply #53 on: December 03, 2015, 08:16:21 pm »
That sucks. There are no Spectro distributors within a 100 mile radius of KC.  >:(

I don't know anything about the dealer, but this came up on Spectro's dealer search.
Greg
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Re: The story of Zinc, and why SOHC4 engines need it in oil.
« Reply #54 on: December 04, 2015, 03:52:26 am »
I found Spectro at Leesburg, VA dealer yesterday - $9.99 a bottle.   I think I will stick to Valvoline for Summer and Delvac for Winter.

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: The story of Zinc, and why SOHC4 engines need it in oil.
« Reply #55 on: December 07, 2015, 09:59:33 am »
Thanks for the help ofreen- my search went poorly since I only searched on the Kansas side.  :P
I actually tripped over it yesterday while at the cycle gear near me when I was looking for ZDDP additives that they do not have.
10W40 Spectro mineral and the CB drank it up thirstily. I could have sworn it whispered "thanks" to me as I started it up.  ;)
So it looks like Cycle gear could special order some for you since they had it at my location.
"Well, Mr. Carpetbagger. We got somethin' in this territory called the Missouri boat ride."   Josey Wales

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Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: The story of Zinc, and why SOHC4 engines need it in oil.
« Reply #56 on: December 09, 2015, 08:11:03 am »
Wow. The difference is night and day when I switched from the Castro Actevo to the Spectro. Was having problems riding a few miles on the highway where the fuel seemed to cut out around 4800 rpm. After I changed the oil no cut-out problem and the shifting is smoother. A tune up is in order along with other maintenance items but I was surprised how much switching oil would effect the running of my bike.

I am sold on Spectro.  :)
"Well, Mr. Carpetbagger. We got somethin' in this territory called the Missouri boat ride."   Josey Wales

"It's Baltimore, gentlemen. The gods will not save you." Ervin Burrell

CB750 K3 crat | (2) 1986 VFR750F

Offline HondaMan

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Re: The story of Zinc, and why SOHC4 engines need it in oil.
« Reply #57 on: December 09, 2015, 06:32:50 pm »
Wow. The difference is night and day when I switched from the Castro Actevo to the Spectro. Was having problems riding a few miles on the highway where the fuel seemed to cut out around 4800 rpm. After I changed the oil no cut-out problem and the shifting is smoother. A tune up is in order along with other maintenance items but I was surprised how much switching oil would effect the running of my bike.

I am sold on Spectro.  :)

Isn't it amazing how much the oil affects these engines?
The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline edwardmorris

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Re: The story of Zinc, and why SOHC4 engines need it in oil.
« Reply #58 on: December 09, 2015, 07:42:27 pm »
..........

Isn't it amazing how much the oil affects these engines?
Indeed! My bike has all near new gears with all new SKFs and I didn't think it could shift better during the Rotella break in. Then I switched to Spectro and went "What the hell was I thinking"  :o


I had quite the story to tell about my quest to find Spectro.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,126735.msg1716909.html#msg1716909

Offline Wkni1967

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Re: The story of Zinc, and why SOHC4 engines need it in oil.
« Reply #59 on: December 10, 2015, 08:56:08 am »
Which Spectro are you guys using? The Spectro 4 motorcycle 20w-50 (or 10w-40) non-synthetic, or the Spectro 4 Heavy Duty? Website says the later is made for v-twins. They got a bunch of choices.
Walt

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Re: The story of Zinc, and why SOHC4 engines need it in oil.
« Reply #60 on: December 10, 2015, 09:51:04 am »
VTwin oil IS NOT what you want...it has negative properties for our SOHC/4 motors...

David
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Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: The story of Zinc, and why SOHC4 engines need it in oil.
« Reply #61 on: December 10, 2015, 10:57:58 am »
I bought the Spectro 4 10W-40 this last week. Will be buying more for the V4s in my life even though they seem content with the Synthetic Castrol RS.
"Well, Mr. Carpetbagger. We got somethin' in this territory called the Missouri boat ride."   Josey Wales

"It's Baltimore, gentlemen. The gods will not save you." Ervin Burrell

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: The story of Zinc, and why SOHC4 engines need it in oil.
« Reply #62 on: December 10, 2015, 07:18:19 pm »
VTwin oil IS NOT what you want...it has negative properties for our SOHC/4 motors...

David

Roger THAT! When i put it in my 750 2 years ago, in less than 20 miles I could barely shift it hot. Changing to the BelRay instantly fixed it!
The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline ofreen

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Re: The story of Zinc, and why SOHC4 engines need it in oil.
« Reply #63 on: December 10, 2015, 07:58:31 pm »
Which Spectro are you guys using? The Spectro 4 motorcycle 20w-50 (or 10w-40) non-synthetic, or the Spectro 4 Heavy Duty? Website says the later is made for v-twins. They got a bunch of choices.
VTwin oil IS NOT what you want...it has negative properties for our SOHC/4 motors...

David

Roger THAT! When i put it in my 750 2 years ago, in less than 20 miles I could barely shift it hot. Changing to the BelRay instantly fixed it!

Uh-oh!  I've been using Spectro heavy duty 20-50 in the 750 for the last 90,000 miles or so.  I never noticed the fine print on the label about v-twins.  I hope I haven't hurt anything!  How much longer can I go before I can expect those negative symptoms to show up?  I had better go out there and drain it out tonight before it is too late!!!

 ;)
« Last Edit: March 28, 2018, 04:51:33 am by ofreen »
Greg
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Offline edwardmorris

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Re: The story of Zinc, and why SOHC4 engines need it in oil.
« Reply #64 on: December 10, 2015, 08:02:08 pm »
Greg, I did go and ask the gentleman about FOR the HD oil after reading this post of yours

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,119643.msg1700716.html#msg1700716

and he strongly advised against it. I just used the 20w50 and it has been great so far. Is there any particular reason you prefer the HD? Just curious at this point, I'm pretty happy that I found good oil locally ;)

Edit: not about, for
« Last Edit: December 10, 2015, 08:06:13 pm by edwardmorris »

Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: The story of Zinc, and why SOHC4 engines need it in oil.
« Reply #65 on: December 10, 2015, 08:22:25 pm »
This is da bomb!  Used the combination for 28 years now!  ;D
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Offline ofreen

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Re: The story of Zinc, and why SOHC4 engines need it in oil.
« Reply #66 on: December 10, 2015, 08:23:56 pm »
Greg, I did go and ask the gentleman about FOR the HD oil after reading this post of yours

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,119643.msg1700716.html#msg1700716

and he strongly advised against it. I just used the 20w50 and it has been great so far. Is there any particular reason you prefer the HD? Just curious at this point, I'm pretty happy that I found good oil locally ;)

Edit: not about, for

The chart in the post link below shows a little more zinc and phosphorus in the HD oil than in their standard 20w50, but I doubt it makes a huge difference.  If what you bought is working for you and you like it, I'd say stick with it.  As I said before, I am not foolish enough to claim Spectro HD is the best motorcycle oil, but I do know that sustained use of it has resulted in my long-lived 750 engine, currently at quite a bit over 153,000 miles.  Is sustained use of the heavy duty version of their oil counterproductive in the SOHC4 750?  Clearly it is not.  The case is made that it is exemplary.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,119643.msg1700716.html#msg1700716
Greg
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Offline Wkni1967

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Re: The story of Zinc, and why SOHC4 engines need it in oil.
« Reply #67 on: December 11, 2015, 04:58:00 pm »
For those, like me, looking for Spectro oil and can't find a dealer close by you might want to check out performanceoilstore.com online. They offer the 20w-50 mineral for $5.75 a liter with an additional case discount. No tax unless you're in Tennessee. I ordered a case.  UPS shipping to Texas was $22. Made my cost $7.30 a bottle.
Walt

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Re: The story of Zinc, and why SOHC4 engines need it in oil.
« Reply #68 on: December 11, 2015, 06:54:31 pm »
Which Spectro are you guys using? The Spectro 4 motorcycle 20w-50 (or 10w-40) non-synthetic, or the Spectro 4 Heavy Duty? Website says the later is made for v-twins. They got a bunch of choices.
VTwin oil IS NOT what you want...it has negative properties for our SOHC/4 motors...

David

Roger THAT! When i put it in my 750 2 years ago, in less than 20 miles I could barely shift it hot. Changing to the BelRay instantly fixed it!

Uh-oh!  I've been using Spectro heavy duty 20-50 in the 750 for the last 90,000 miles or so.  I never noticed the fine print on the label about v-twins.  I hope I haven't hurt anything!  How much longer can I go before I can expect those negative symptoms to show up?  I had better go out there and drain it out tonight before it is too late!!!

 ;)


I think the rest of the Spectro's excellent characteristics negate whatever it is in the Valvoline V-Twin (dino) oil that made it so hard on mine. Spectro didn't have the distinction back when I had my own shop: they just sold Motorcycle Oil in 10w40 or 20w50. I think it was called "Golden Spectro" back then?
The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline ofreen

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Re: The story of Zinc, and why SOHC4 engines need it in oil.
« Reply #69 on: December 11, 2015, 08:29:41 pm »
Spectro didn't have the distinction back when I had my own shop: they just sold Motorcycle Oil in 10w40 or 20w50. I think it was called "Golden Spectro" back then?

Golden Spectro has always been their semi-synthetic blend, while the Platinum is their full synthetic.
Greg
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Offline seanbarney41

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Re: The story of Zinc, and why SOHC4 engines need it in oil.
« Reply #70 on: December 11, 2015, 11:56:34 pm »
Why would a v-twin need different oil than any other oil lubricated trans/wet clutch engine?...answer-they don't
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Re: The story of Zinc, and why SOHC4 engines need it in oil.
« Reply #71 on: December 12, 2015, 12:04:05 am »
Why would a v-twin need different oil than any other oil lubricated trans/wet clutch engine?...answer-they don't

The main thing I noticed with the V-Twin Valvoline when I used it was: the oil tank was filled with foam! It has more detergent than their 'other' 20w50 motorcycle oil (which isn't too bad, but does tend to wash the sealant out of the gaskets over time, still). I believe this foam had MUCH to do with the troubles my tranny was suffering, as I had seen this before with other oils I have tried. It was the first synthetic I had seen foam in, though.
The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline seanbarney41

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Re: The story of Zinc, and why SOHC4 engines need it in oil.
« Reply #72 on: December 12, 2015, 12:27:28 am »
I have had no probs with V-twin marketed 20w50 dino of any brand, hell, I share shop space with a H-D dealer mechanic and have been known to swipe a quart or 2 of Harley branded dino oil in 20w50 or even 50sae(no idea who the real manufacturer is, would guess Castrol?)but have noticed the smoother running/shifting offered by Spectro...
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline dave the welder

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Re: The story of Zinc, and why SOHC4 engines need it in oil.
« Reply #73 on: July 18, 2016, 08:43:00 am »
noticed bad things were said about STP.is the stuff you are talking about the stuff  they label (with zddp)???thought this was what we needed.also if this is the bad stuff would it cause my bike to jump in and out of 1st gear under heavy acceleration???
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: The story of Zinc, and why SOHC4 engines need it in oil.
« Reply #74 on: July 19, 2016, 07:19:02 pm »
noticed bad things were said about STP.is the stuff you are talking about the stuff  they label (with zddp)???thought this was what we needed.also if this is the bad stuff would it cause my bike to jump in and out of 1st gear under heavy acceleration???

Yep, STP (and other "motor honey" products like it, like Rislone) coats the cork clutch plates with a gooey long-chain molecule (which is helpful in car engines, but not these bikes) that makes the plates slip. They will hold until the power reaches a certain point, then slip like mad, and if you let up on the throttle the plates will try to grab again. Eventually they slip all the time.

You can wash the stuff off the plates and recover the clutch, you don't have to replace the plates. But to do this, you will have to take them out.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 07:01:36 pm by HondaMan »
The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com