Author Topic: Is this normal ? Is my front wheel loose ? HELP !  (Read 6882 times)

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Offline Viktor.J

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Is this normal ? Is my front wheel loose ? HELP !
« on: April 21, 2013, 05:23:45 AM »
Hey everybody !

I've come to a problem that I can't solve on my own.
I've restored the front brakes and changed the front forks oil seal.
Now that I've mounted everything on the bike the front feels very loose, is this normal ?

When I lock the tire between my leg I can move the bars maybe 1-2 cm on each side !?!?

On the movies the bike is on its centrestand, and only a little oil on the forks. But is this "rotational move" normal ? Have I done anything wrong when I assemblied the forks ?

So to sum up.

- All the bolts are at least as tight as they should be.

- The axle is sequred and installed as mentioned in the shop manual ( which I have)

- The frond fender was missing one bolt. I did know that and draw the conclusion that all this flex can't/shuld not depend on this bolt. I installed the bolt and it's a little stiffer but the front is still quite flexible.

- I have and are using the D-washers for the top clamp.

Thanks for the help so far guys !

honda cb750 front loose
CB750 front "loose"
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 11:45:40 PM by Viktor.J »
Please ! Take a look and give me feedback in my project thread, its much needed :)
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=112745.0

Honda CB750 K2

Offline 70CB750

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Re: Is this normal ? Is my front wheel loose ? HELP !
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2013, 05:29:45 AM »
It looks like you did not tighten the tripple tree brackets?
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Offline Viktor.J

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Re: Is this normal ? Is my front wheel loose ? HELP !
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2013, 05:33:08 AM »
How much should I tighten them ? Since my top tree is newly welded after the PO broke it I dont know how much I dare to tighten it. And the under tree is "tight" is there any chance you trash the threads ? I mean I can still thread the bolts a little more with some force.... is there any torque table ? I cant find in the shop manual
Please ! Take a look and give me feedback in my project thread, its much needed :)
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=112745.0

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Offline trueblue

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Re: Is this normal ? Is my front wheel loose ? HELP !
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2013, 05:42:33 AM »
Is the nut on the end of the front axel tight?  If it isn't it can cause a wobble like that.
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Is this normal ? Is my front wheel loose ? HELP !
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2013, 05:44:48 AM »
Well I went to PC from the iphone and it still looks like the tripple is the culprit.  I would take the wheel out and check the fork - hard to tell from here, but the bottom bracket from the tripple tree seems to be lose.

If bolts are tight, don't try to to tighten them more, the whole subassembly should be pretty stiff when finger tight.
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Offline Viktor.J

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Re: Is this normal ? Is my front wheel loose ? HELP !
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2013, 05:49:03 AM »
Is the nut on the end of the front axel tight?  If it isn't it can cause a wobble like that.

You mean the 2 screws (on each leg) that secure the front axle to the front fork right ?
Yep they are tighten hard.

Well I went to PC from the iphone and it still looks like the tripple is the culprit.  I would take the wheel out and check the fork - hard to tell from here, but the bottom bracket from the tripple tree seems to be lose.

If bolts are tight, don't try to to tighten them more, the whole subassembly should be pretty stiff when finger tight.

I Have dual discs so to remove the wheel is a pain in the ass. And what Do I wan't to see from there ?  All the screws are tighten as hell, what more should be tighten or done to stiff the whole front ?
 Im qlueless !
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Is this normal ? Is my front wheel loose ? HELP !
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2013, 05:56:15 AM »
I hear you :) - dual disc is a #$%* to take apart.

In troubleshooting, step back to the stage when everything worked is often very helpful.  If you want to keep the wheel in - and  I dont blame you with dual disc - try to find what is moving against what.  Did you leave any fork dumpener parts out?  I am sure it is something very simple.
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Offline Viktor.J

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Re: Is this normal ? Is my front wheel loose ? HELP !
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2013, 05:58:41 AM »
God to know that im undertood :D But I cant really understand what it is that stiffens up the front I guess I could try to move only the uperlegs to rule out the top tree.

But what is it that prevent The upper forks to "spin" inside of the lower forks ?
Please ! Take a look and give me feedback in my project thread, its much needed :)
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=112745.0

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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Is this normal ? Is my front wheel loose ? HELP !
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2013, 06:07:17 AM »
The lowers are hold in position by the front axle.  That's why you dont have to align the top in assembly because the lowers rotate freely on uppers.
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Offline Xnavylfr

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Re: Is this normal ? Is my front wheel loose ? HELP !
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2013, 06:32:16 AM »
In your ORIGINAL picture of the bike you had a single disc! Did you change front forks from a CB750F Super Sport to have DUAL DISC? If so the forks are on the wrong sides ,the SS forks had the brake calipers on the back of the tubes. When you bought these forks did you measure the DIAMETER of the tubes to make sure they were the same as the SINGLE DISC tubes???

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Offline Dream750

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Re: Is this normal ? Is my front wheel loose ? HELP !
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2013, 06:33:16 AM »
Looks like the fender bracket is loose in the second video?

See if these torque charts can help get sorted out: 

First pic is from the 1977 –78 CB 750 F model shop manual.

Second pic is from the CB750 K shop manual.

Third pic is correct axle cap orientation.


Offline Viktor.J

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Re: Is this normal ? Is my front wheel loose ? HELP !
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2013, 07:05:14 AM »
Ill read your replys when I get back from The garage. But to be clear, I have a cb750 K2. Everything stock except The dual disc setup.
Please ! Take a look and give me feedback in my project thread, its much needed :)
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=112745.0

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Offline Rigid

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Re: Is this normal ? Is my front wheel loose ? HELP !
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2013, 10:40:57 AM »
"Newly welded top tree". i suspect some expansion occurred during the tig welding and it was filled with rod, rendering oversize ID. 
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Offline 754

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Re: Is this normal ? Is my front wheel loose ? HELP !
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2013, 10:59:09 AM »
On our 71 and 72,s at speed the lower forklegs often rocked back and forth, if there is a lot of wear the fork will get sloppy., If wheel is off you can check this by pulling and pushing lower fork leg..while handlebars are straight..

 Did you mean that you could rotate the steel forktube, even after you had clamped the triple trees?
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Offline Johnie

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Re: Is this normal ? Is my front wheel loose ? HELP !
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2013, 11:28:50 AM »
I saw the same thing dream750 did...in the 2nd video it looks like the fender brackets are not tight or missing the bolts. Should be 2 each side. That will help to secure both lower fork legs.
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Offline strynboen

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Re: Is this normal ? Is my front wheel loose ? HELP !
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2013, 11:41:35 AM »
yes  the front fender stabilices the legs..you have to mount all stuff to get a real test resultat...thats why its only cafes who drive witaut frontfender..and  vith car tires.. ;)
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Offline Old Scrambler

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Re: Is this normal ? Is my front wheel loose ? HELP !
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2013, 12:05:01 PM »
+1 on the loose front fender...............but before you tighten it..............prop the motor or frame to lift the bike to take all weight off of the front forks........then loosen everything from the top-tree to the axle and start the process as stated in the shop-manual.  Do you have the 'D'-washers for the top-tree?  If not they are a must.  I assume you have properly spaced the speedo-drive to accommodate the double-disk.  Start the assembly by snugging the axle as shown.....then the tighten the fender-brace and final tighten the axle.  Rotate the wheel to check clearance and centering.  If all is good at the wheel, lower the prop so the wheel is on the floor and check the top of the fork-tubes for proper position in the  top-tree and tighten the LOWER-tree to 20-ft.lbs.  Then snug the top tree to no more than 12-lbs.

This looks like an interesting project.  Let us know how it turns out.
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Offline Fritz

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Re: Is this normal ? Is my front wheel loose ? HELP !
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2013, 01:26:04 PM »
Quote
How much should I tighten them ? Since my top tree is newly welded after the PO broke it I dont know how much I dare to tighten it. And the under tree is "tight" is there any chance you trash the threads ? I mean I can still thread the bolts a little more with some force.... is there any torque table ? I cant find in the shop manual

Do yourself a favor and stop wrenching until you bought a torque wrench in the proper range and downloaded the workshop manual from the first thread in this forum.
The numbers are all there. And read about the "D-shaped washers" for the tripple tree that you will break again, if you don't put them back in.

Cheers
Carsten

1976 CB550F

Offline Viktor.J

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Re: Is this normal ? Is my front wheel loose ? HELP !
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2013, 01:53:39 PM »
"Newly welded top tree". i suspect some expansion occurred during the tig welding and it was filled with rod, rendering oversize ID.

The top tree was clamped to a 35mm solid rod and have still a 35mm inner diameter. So that shouldn't be the case...



On our 71 and 72,s at speed the lower forklegs often rocked back and forth, if there is a lot of wear the fork will get sloppy., If wheel is off you can check this by pulling and pushing lower fork leg..while handlebars are straight..

 Did you mean that you could rotate the steel forktube, even after you had clamped the triple trees?

Ill try to check that, but the 100 km I put on it after I bought it and before the winter came I didn't really feel these tendencies. But def worth checking.

No the upper forks are solid.




I saw the same thing dream750 did...in the 2nd video it looks like the fender brackets are not tight or missing the bolts. Should be 2 each side. That will help to secure both lower fork legs.
yes  the front fender stabilices the legs..you have to mount all stuff to get a real test resultat...thats why its only cafes who drive witaut frontfender..and  vith car tires.. ;)

That's correct I mounted the last fender bolt and the outcome is pretty much the same. A little bit stiffer as I calculated but it's still quite flexible. hmmm..





+1 on the loose front fender...............but before you tighten it..............prop the motor or frame to lift the bike to take all weight off of the front forks........then loosen everything from the top-tree to the axle and start the process as stated in the shop-manual.  Do you have the 'D'-washers for the top-tree?  If not they are a must.  I assume you have properly spaced the speedo-drive to accommodate the double-disk.  Start the assembly by snugging the axle as shown.....then the tighten the fender-brace and final tighten the axle.  Rotate the wheel to check clearance and centering.  If all is good at the wheel, lower the prop so the wheel is on the floor and check the top of the fork-tubes for proper position in the  top-tree and tighten the LOWER-tree to 20-ft.lbs.  Then snug the top tree to no more than 12-lbs.

This looks like an interesting project.  Let us know how it turns out.


Ill see what I can do. I don't have the ability to lift the bike as suggested. And as I mentionded before, double disc is a pain in the ass to install . But if that's what it takes, sure Im up for the task.
I have the D-washer installed on both sides, Some how PO still managed to brake the top tree :(

I have a Project thread where you can read about my slow progress, thanks !




Quote
How much should I tighten them ? Since my top tree is newly welded after the PO broke it I dont know how much I dare to tighten it. And the under tree is "tight" is there any chance you trash the threads ? I mean I can still thread the bolts a little more with some force.... is there any torque table ? I cant find in the shop manual

Do yourself a favor and stop wrenching until you bought a torque wrench in the proper range and downloaded the workshop manual from the first thread in this forum.
The numbers are all there. And read about the "D-shaped washers" for the tripple tree that you will break again, if you don't put them back in.

Cheers
Carsten



The only thing I don't have is a torque wrench and Ill probably have to buy one. That doesn't solve the problem though. But thanks for the input Carsten.
Please ! Take a look and give me feedback in my project thread, its much needed :)
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=112745.0

Honda CB750 K2

Offline Viktor.J

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Re: Is this normal ? Is my front wheel loose ? HELP !
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2013, 01:57:28 PM »
So to sum up.

- All the bolts are at least as tight as they should be.

- The axle is sequred and installed as mentioned in the shop manual ( which I have)

- The frond fender was missing one bolt. I did know that and draw the conclusion that all this flex can't/shuld not depend on this bolt. I installed the bolt and it's a little stiffer but the front is still quite flexible.

- I have and are using the D-washers for the top clamp.

Thanks for the help so far guys !
Please ! Take a look and give me feedback in my project thread, its much needed :)
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=112745.0

Honda CB750 K2

Offline Don R

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Re: Is this normal ? Is my front wheel loose ? HELP !
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2013, 09:18:34 PM »
If you have a Hot rod magazine there is a coupon for a torque wrench at harbor freight for $10. they seem to be quite accurate, tests have been done and they compare to snap on in accuracy.
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Re: Is this normal ? Is my front wheel loose ? HELP !
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2013, 11:31:29 PM »
Can't watch the videos but it is possible to put the front axle nut on the wrong way round and then the axle is loose on the wheel so the wheel can slide sideways
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Offline Stev-o

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Re: Is this normal ? Is my front wheel loose ? HELP !
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2013, 05:27:05 AM »
If you have a Hot rod magazine there is a coupon for a torque wrench at harbor freight for $10. they seem to be quite accurate, tests have been done and they compare to snap on in accuracy.

I doubt there is a Harbor Freight in Sweden?
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Is this normal ? Is my front wheel loose ? HELP !
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2013, 05:55:05 AM »
I could use a smaller torque wrench and found this:

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00932513000P?sid=IDx01192011x000001&kispla=00932513000P&srccode=cii_17588969&cpncode=31-125018743-2

price is right and whatnot, but accuracy +/- 4% out of 80? ;D?
Prokop
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Offline Viktor.J

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Re: Is this normal ? Is my front wheel loose ? HELP !
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2013, 06:49:00 AM »
Thanks for the input about the torque wrench but I doubt that the issue Is loose bolts so that doesn't solve the problem though :)
Please ! Take a look and give me feedback in my project thread, its much needed :)
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=112745.0

Honda CB750 K2