Author Topic: Coil Questions  (Read 8312 times)

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750Man

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Coil Questions
« on: May 16, 2005, 01:46:12 PM »
Hi, I have a few questions about coils.

1) How do you test the primary and secondary resistance of the stock coils, I have tried from a couple places but I can't seem to find any resistance.

2) If I were to replace the stock coils how much stronger would the spark get. If I were to replace them what coils would you reccomend, coils from a newer bike, Dyna coils, Accel coils? Also what resistance should I buy?

3) If there is a lot of sparking at the points would that reduce spark at the plugs. Should I replace the points and the condensers if there is sparking at the points?

4) Finally, I was reading in the FAQs that by wiring the battery directly to the coils with a 12 volt relay improves spark. How well does this work and is it worth doing?

Thanks for all your help!
« Last Edit: May 16, 2005, 01:52:05 PM by 750Man »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Coil Questions
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2005, 04:07:54 PM »
Primary connections are black to yellow or black to blue.  The stock coils measure about 5 ohms.  There are replacement coils available in 5 ohm and  3 ohm primaries.  This will give you a higher voltage/hotter spark.  But, they also draw more current and decrease the life of the contact points.
The secondary of the SOHC coils are from ignition lead to ignition lead as two plugs fire at the same time.  I don't remember what the resitance of the 15000 turns of wire is there.  But, there should certainly be continuity between them.  Note that the spark plug boots/caps are supposed to have resistors in them.  These can go bad (open). So, for checking the coils, unscrew the caps from the wires.

Sparking at the points is somewhat normal and not normally a concern by itself.  However, the sparking can cause the points to pit and or carbon up.  So, the points are considered expendable and replaced during a normal tuneup of the bike.  Experience tells when they need to be replaced.  But, if you look at new set for comparison, you ought to be able to make a reasonable judgement.  If the old points have very high peaks and valleys burned into them, then replace the condensers as well.

As for question # 4...  If I was too lazy to clean all the wiring system connectors to keep these voltage losses down, then, I suppose, direct wiring the coils with a relay could be an effective alternative.  I'll have to go look for that FAQ, though, to establish a context.

Perhaps you'd be interested in a little post I made some time ago..

The Honda SOHC4 ignition coil is just a simple transformer.

If that doesn’t mean anything to you, then understand that this one is a
device that changes low voltage from the battery to high voltage for the
spark plugs.

The coil has “gazinta” connections and “gozouta” connections. 12v is
applied to the small “gazinta” wires. And, the spark plugs connect to
the bigger “gozouta” wires.

With a multimeter set to measure continuity, the two “gazinta” wires
should have continuity between the center conductor of the wires.
With a multimeter set to measure continuity, the two “gozouta” wires
should have continuity between the center conductor of the wires.
With a multimeter set to measure continuity, any “gazinta” wire should
NOT have continuity to any “gozouta” wire.
With a multimeter set to measure OHMs, the two “gazinta” wires should
have about 5 ohms resistance between them, give or take an OHM.
Ideally, the “gozouta” wires should have the plug caps unscrewed and
removed from the ends for the above tests.

Functional test.
If your spark plug boots are still installed, insert a spark plug in
each one and arrange them so that the threads of each plug are touching
the other. Each time you apply and disconnect 12v to the “gazinta”
wires, both spark plugs should display a visible arc between the center
electrode and the plug body electrode.

If your spark plug boots are removed, arrange the “gozouta” wires so
that their ends are about 1/8 inch apart. Each time you apply and
disconnect 12v to the “gazinta” wires, there should be a visible arc
between the “gozouta” wires.

It is best to keep personal anatomy inventory well away from the
“gozouta” vicinity during the functional test.
The coils believe you are a conductor, regardless of whether or not you
have lead an orchestra, or handled tickets on a train, and will deliver
a strong message to you if you provide the opportunity.


The 12v source should have a current capability of at least one amp.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2005, 10:19:44 AM by TwoTired »
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

750Man

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Re: Coil Questions
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2005, 04:25:50 PM »
Thanks!
That really helps a lot. I'm going out to check the resistance of the coils right now.

Offline SteveD CB500F

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Re: Coil Questions
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2005, 03:32:46 AM »
A great explanation TwoTired - do you mind if I paste it into the FAQs?
SOHC4 Member #2393
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Offline CB750F2

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Re: Coil Questions
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2005, 04:51:38 AM »
Good explanation from Two Tired. The only additional info I can add is that the resistance of the secondaries measured between the secondary leads with the caps removed is approx 15000 ohms. Pat from Nth Qld
Regards
Pat from Australia

Offline Jonesy

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Re: Coil Questions
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2005, 05:10:58 AM »
I've also heard complaints from people that install 3 Ohm coils that their batteries seem to run low most of the time, due to the increased current draw.
"Every time I start thinking the world is all bad, then I start seeing people out there having a good time on motorcycles; it makes me take another look." -Steve McQueen

Offline dusterdude

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Re: Coil Questions
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2005, 05:42:40 AM »
now is a good time to ask my question.what should the ohm reading be on the plug caps.thanks
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3

Offline Einyodeler

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Re: Coil Questions
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2005, 06:28:43 AM »
The stock caps should be right around 10 ohm and the replacement NGK caps are 5 ohm. ;)
« Last Edit: May 17, 2005, 07:59:37 AM by Einyodeler »
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Offline dusterdude

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Re: Coil Questions
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2005, 06:51:43 AM »
groovy,thanks
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3

gerstle

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Re: Coil Questions
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2005, 08:44:13 AM »
two cents:

a cb mechanic friend of mine has had cb's on dyno's and compared using accel coils and stock coils.  According to him, on a properly tuned bike, the extra spark introduces no performance gain whatsoever.  He talked me out of buying new coils and into getting a big bore kit instead.

by the way, the mechanic friend makes some kick ass bikes.  He'll do all sorts of work for these old beasts - you should see his cafe racers.  sweet.  But one really cool thing he does is drill out your front disc brake rotor to remove the horrible cb squeak.  check out his site: caferacers.net

Offline dusterdude

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Re: Coil Questions
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2005, 09:18:58 AM »
speaking of rotrs,does anyone know if a drilled rotor is available new for a k1.thanks
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3

MotoDave

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Re: Coil Questions
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2005, 11:01:05 AM »

I've got a cross drilled front rotor and it squeaks something terrible... Have even tried different pads.

The cross drilling reduces weight and looks great, however.

Offline dusterdude

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Re: Coil Questions
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2005, 11:30:33 AM »
dave,where did you find your rotor
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3

Offline dusterdude

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Re: Coil Questions
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2005, 11:32:49 AM »
hopefully this is the last question i will need to ask on this subject.do i need to check resistance on the coils with them hot and if so what temp should they be.thanks
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3

MotoDave

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Re: Coil Questions
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2005, 11:44:18 AM »
As for the coils, I would check them cold and hot to see if there is a difference.  The resistance values should be very similar.

My bike came with the rotor drilled.  I bought it from some guy who had the bike in his backyard for years.  It had some cafe stuff on it like old K&N pods, a 4 to 1 exhaust, fiberglass fender and seat cowl, clubmans, and the drilled rotor.  Many, many hours and $$$ later it's becoming a cool bike (it had weeds growing in it when I picked it up.)  I intend to match drill another rotor for a dual disk setup.

-Dave

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Coil Questions
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2005, 11:50:12 AM »
Wow.  Lots of activity.  I'm glad people think it's a usefull post.

For SteveD CB500F,   Sure, post what you think is appropriate into the FAQ.  Interested in a carb tuning/setup entry for 500/550s?

For CB750F2,  Thanks for that info, I'll try to remember that.  However, I reasoned that the functional test and seeing the spark might gain more confidence in the coil rather than obsessing over an ohm reading difference for the secondary.  Further, I'm not sure what the guidlines should be for rejecting a coil based on a secondary ohm reading.  What if the reading was below, say, 14000 or above 16000.  I don't know what the factory tolerances were.  Or, how much internal insulation breakdown must occur before the spark is unreliable.  And, of course, I didn't specify any accuracy or precision of the test equipment, either.   Feel free to offer any insight or experience you can provide about this!

For Einyodeler and dusterdude,  I believe the stock caps were indeed 10K ohm.  NGK does, or at least did, offer caps in 10K, 5K and 0 ohms, perhaps even more varieties.  Local stocking or shopping sources would determine availability.  I think an important note might be when to apply the different ohm selections.  The stock plugs used on the old SOHC4's with the points ignition did NOT have resistor plugs.  To suppress Radio Frequency Interference (RFI), the plug caps had the resistors to soften the inductive spikes produced by the coils and radiated over the ignition leads.  With the widespread use of resistor plugs (usually there is an R in the plug number) I think it is important with these old coils that only one resistor is used either in the plug or in the plug cap, but probably not both, as the resistors do absorb some of the energy you'd like to have to jump the spark gap.   Why do you want max energy at the plug?   This kind of bleeds over towards the subject gerstle introduced.

Performance gains with high energy spark.

-The spark voltage needed to jump the gap increases with the increased chamber pressure.-
If you change (increase) the compression ratio or change cam timing valve lift to create higher chamber pressures you can make more power in an internal combustion engine.  To realize that power you may need higher spark voltage to maintain a spark at the electrode gap of the plug.  The high energy ignition does not create the added power but it can enable it.

-At some marginal voltage levels, new plugs arc more easily or energeticly than old plugs.-
New plug electrodes have sharp edges and spark more eagerly radiates from these sharp edges.  As these sharp edges errode and become rounded, site origination of the spark becomes more erratic or slightly delayed.  Combustion may not be as complete and the engine not as efficient with the fuel as with newer plugs.  However, with higher spark voltage, such as those produced with modern high energy ignitions, old worn plugs fire with the much the same zeal and efficiency as new ones.  Therefore, it can be said that more power is created with high energy (Higher voltage) ignitions for the duration of the time between spark plug changes.

Lastly for Dusterdude.  Check coil resistance at normal ambient temps.  However, there are failure modes where the expansion/distortion of the various components can change overall function.  If you are encountering problems related to heat, then do check them at the temps where a problem is noted.

Whew!  Let's go ride, shall we?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline dusterdude

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Re: Coil Questions
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2005, 12:34:21 PM »
thanks lloyd,i guess what i was looking for should i put them in the oven at say 200 degrees or so and check them that way
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3

Offline dusterdude

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Re: Coil Questions
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2005, 01:21:04 PM »
lloyd or anyone else,do you know the part number of the 0 ohm plug caps if they are available from ngk.
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Coil Questions
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2005, 01:38:28 PM »
dusterdude,
I don't have design specs for the coils as to what temps they should withstand whithout damage.  And, I've never heated one to destruction.  Considering where they live on the bike...like... right next to the gas tank, I'd hate to think it was 200 degrees F.  But, then I've never probed that area during operation, either. Perhaps it does.

Anyway, what's your impetus for a high temp test? Are you experiencing a problem where the engine cuts out when hot?

You will let us know where pieces start melting won't you?

I don't know the NGK part numbers you requested, sorry.  I will say that all street bikes should have RFI supression resistors as a courtesy to others who share our planet.  But, then, I'm long past my rebel years, I supose.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

750Man

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Re: Coil Questions
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2005, 05:05:13 AM »
I tested the coils and the primary and secondary resistances were very close to what they were supposed to be, but when I touch the threads together on the plugs and connect the 12volt wire going into the coils I see a spark at these wires and not at electrodes on the plugs. What could the problem be?
Thanks

Offline dusterdude

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Re: Coil Questions
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2005, 05:31:24 AM »
lloyd,yea its just a curiosity i guess.i had a high speed cut out on either cyl 3 or 4.but when i took the coils off and took them home,i was playing with the 1 and 3 coil and the plug boot for the no. 3 wire fell slap off the end of the wire,so i guess that kinda answers my question anyway.thanks for the good info and ill probably be asking more questions.
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3

Offline Dennis

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Re: Coil Questions
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2005, 05:47:42 AM »
750Man,
check your plug caps and be sure that you are using "good" spark plugs

Offline Raul CB750K1

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Re: Coil Questions
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2005, 06:19:40 AM »
750 man, that small spark is normal. It is the spark that generally happens at the breakers, but this time, as you connect the wire directly, happens at the coil.

Coils are transformers. They have a primary winding and a secondary winding. The ratio is very high, say 1:1000, that is, there are 1000 thousand wire turns in the secondary per each wire turn in the primary.

In DC (Direct Current), a wire have almost no resistance. But if it is long enough, it gives some resistance. If you remember your science class, a wire winding through a piece or iron makes an electromagnet. The primary winding is made of thick copper wire, to withstand the high current due to the low resistance. It generates a magnetic field, and the high current draw is the culprit of the spark in the connection.

So, once the coil is energized, the secondary winding is among a magnetic field. No voltage is generated then, but as soon as the magnetic field ceases a high voltage is generated in the winding. The generated voltage is not dependent on the strenght of the magnetic field, but on the amount of variation. The same principle applies to alternators.

If the high voltage is put together through a small air gap, the air will ionize and the spark will happen. Same principle that lightning.


The key is that a transformer can transform either current or voltage, but the transferred power will always be less than the applied power. So, if Power = Voltage * current,  Low voltage and high current in the primary will be converted to High voltage and low current in the secondary, but always with less total power.

Raul

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Coil Questions
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2005, 10:40:12 AM »
750Man,
Unscrew the plug caps from the ends of the ignition wires, and tape them to a board so that the ends are 1/8 inch apart.  Apply and remove the 12v to the primary wires and there should be a spark across the ignition wires.  If not, then your 12v source is too weak or the ignition coils or wires are faulty.

Measure the resistance of the spark plug caps. 10K-5K ohms is ok. 

If your plugs are carbon fouled you will get no spark.  When the center post insulator becomes coated with carbon, it can form an electrical path between the electrodes and bypasses the expect jump between the electrodes.  Best to replace the plugs with new ones unless you have access to an abrasive blast machine to thoroughly clean off the center conductor insulator in the plug.

If this latter condition is the case, you have yet another task of correcting the over rich condition which is the cause of carbon fouling.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Mikeshonda750F

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Re: Coil Questions
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2005, 04:41:33 PM »
To further comment on lower resistance coils, I have tried several different SOHC/4 coils all with the same result (no difference)... I have also tried a pair of coils I nabbed off of a CB900. The idle was smoother, the acceleration was incredible, and the exaust was "turn me on" loud! The only reason I dont use them is because I still run points and dont want the hassle of replacing them constantly... tho here lately.. its tempting!