Author Topic: CB350F spark plugs: NGK D8EA vs. Denso X24ES-U - don't like Denso!  (Read 21653 times)

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bollingball

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Re: CB350F spark plugs: NGK D8EA vs. Denso X24ES-U - don't like Denso!
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2013, 06:42:48 AM »
my post goes for all these bikes,,and does apply to all readers,,keep your rpm up somewhat and be better off!keep the engine on the boil,if you let the torque sag off itll be a two gear down shift to reclaim it,,anyone who doubts me is lugging their engine full stop,,period!

Hondaman Thanks
Dave You found my problem I drive a 51 Chevy and that 230 powerglide motor likes the low rpms I have to stop treating my 750 the same way So I am going with the ND plugs and start cruising no lower than 4000 rpm Thanks Ken

Offline flybox1

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Re: CB350F spark plugs: NGK D8EA vs. Denso X24ES-U - don't like Denso!
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2013, 08:36:38 AM »
Spot on, Dave, the kick at 4000 rpm always makes me smile.
Amen to that, brother.  8) ;D
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Offline cosmicvision

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Re: CB350F spark plugs: NGK D8EA vs. Denso X24ES-U - don't like Denso!
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2013, 09:32:51 AM »
Logging onto these forums is always such an educational adventure...learned some great history today just by reading this thread. HM waxing poetic about spark plug design...love it.

And it seems like spark plugs are just like motor oil or guitar strings or orange juice. Everybody's got their brand they swear by. To the OP: with this said, is it possible that the gap of your plugs are a factor to be considered?
-Joshua
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Offline goldarrow

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Re: CB350F spark plugs: NGK D8EA vs. Denso X24ES-U - don't like Denso!
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2013, 04:03:22 PM »
How much of difference between x24es and x24es-u? And could x24es still be used on our bikes 550 and 750?
« Last Edit: April 27, 2013, 04:08:01 PM by goldarrow »
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Re: CB350F spark plugs: NGK D8EA vs. Denso X24ES-U - don't like Denso!
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2013, 10:54:14 PM »
How much of difference between x24es and x24es-u? And could x24es still be used on our bikes 550 and 750?

The X24ES is the "economy" version of the plug. It is widely used in car engines. The "U" series is most easily identified by its U-shaped ground leg (while all others have a bar stock ground leg). The U-shped thing was touted by the American ND distributors in 1973 as being the 'magic', saying it "creates a fireball in the U-groove!" in their ads: this is just dumb. ND finally called the marketers on it in 1976 and made them stop those ads. The real difference of the "U" plugs is their slender ceramic noses and the tips, which are extended further into the combustion chamber as what are often called "extended reach" type plugs. I think (but have never confirmed) that the "U" groove is just there for easy identification in the general marketplace.

One thing that WAS proven true about such grooves though, by Mercury Outboard (boat engines) in the 1980s was this: the spark always jumps from the sharpest edges of the electrodes to the sharpest edges of the ground arm. So, Champion jumped right on this by making very sharp edges on their electrode tips and ground arms by 1984 or so, and by 1988 even the U-groove ND plugs displayed their now-common sharp groove edges. In practice, this is a tiny difference, but in use it actually DOES make them last longer. This is usually more important in cars (with their higher mileage use) than in bikes, or in outboard motors that run at high speed all their lives.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline silentsvn

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Re: CB350F spark plugs: NGK D8EA vs. Denso X24ES-U - don't like Denso!
« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2013, 08:56:01 AM »
HondaMan -

I know your'e talking about 550 and 750's (in this old thread) but just curious what would you recommend for a 350F?

I just installed Dyna S, Dyna 5 Ohm coils and Accel 8.8 plug wires yesterday and I'm running the NGK's DE8A at .030 gap.





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Offline flybox1

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Re: CB350F spark plugs: NGK D8EA vs. Denso X24ES-U - don't like Denso!
« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2013, 09:18:01 AM »
HondaMan -

I know your'e talking about 550 and 750's (in this old thread) but just curious what would you recommend for a 350F?

I just installed Dyna S, Dyna 5 Ohm coils and Accel 8.8 plug wires yesterday and I'm running the NGK's DE8A at .030 gap.
I ran the x24es-u's in my 350F exclusively once reading about it here.

'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
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"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

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Offline silentsvn

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Re: CB350F spark plugs: NGK D8EA vs. Denso X24ES-U - don't like Denso!
« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2013, 11:42:04 AM »
HondaMan -

I know your'e talking about 550 and 750's (in this old thread) but just curious what would you recommend for a 350F?

I just installed Dyna S, Dyna 5 Ohm coils and Accel 8.8 plug wires yesterday and I'm running the NGK's DE8A at .030 gap.
I ran the x24es-u's in my 350F exclusively once reading about it here.

Okay cool Ill give them a shot and see if it makes a difference. I  was just thinking after upgrading the whole ignition make sure I got the right temp plugs.
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Offline KRONUS0100

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Re: CB350F spark plugs: NGK D8EA vs. Denso X24ES-U - don't like Denso!
« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2013, 01:29:41 PM »
interesting thoughts.  i have both ngk plugs and autolite equivalents.  my 750 definitely runs better on the ngk plugs.  looked at a set of denso, but am not sure i really want iridium/titanium whatevers.
MATT
current bikes:  1976 CB750F, 1981 GS1100E
bikes owned:1981 GL1100I, 1990 GS500E, 1981 GS850, 1977 and 1979 GS750, 1974 CB750, 1975 CB750, and a 1982 GS750E

Offline silentsvn

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Re: CB350F spark plugs: NGK D8EA vs. Denso X24ES-U - don't like Denso!
« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2013, 01:46:56 PM »
interesting thoughts.  i have both ngk plugs and autolite equivalents.  my 750 definitely runs better on the ngk plugs.  looked at a set of denso, but am not sure i really want iridium/titanium whatevers.

I have read on different forums the Denso are good for smaller motors and NGK's for the larger boys - might all just be bull#$%*.

Im going to give them a shot though, pretty cheap to test.
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Re: CB350F spark plugs: NGK D8EA vs. Denso X24ES-U - don't like Denso!
« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2013, 06:09:13 PM »
HondaMan -

I know your'e talking about 550 and 750's (in this old thread) but just curious what would you recommend for a 350F?

I just installed Dyna S, Dyna 5 Ohm coils and Accel 8.8 plug wires yesterday and I'm running the NGK's DE8A at .030 gap.







I think that situation depends a little on your riding style? The 350F/400F bikes are super-winders, running for the 10K RPM mark every time they get the chance. This implies a colder plug could be helpful, if it is always ridden that way. But, most of us live in areas where either the speed limits are low enough or the traffic heavy enough that we can't keep the revs up as much in day-to-day riding, lest we just overheat things.

When I had my shop, it was in a small town surrounded by wide-open 2-lane roads through the hills and river valleys, with 65 MPH speed limits until the 1973 Congress clobbered all that with their 55 MPH sledge hammer. These bikes were designed to do...that. Today, we have cold gasoline that will not lube the top end, so going to a hotter plug to increase combustion power causes more stress on the rings and valve guides.

My solution (there may be others) has been to warm up the combustion a little bit, and then add top-end lube in one form or another. This can be done by slowing down the spark advance curve a little bit (trim off 1/2 turn of the spark advancer spring(s) so the burn takes longer at lower RPM and increases the startup heat as you roll through each accel-shift sequence, and the lube helps to clean the piston tops and keep the rings and guides cooler. It was, during the 55 MPH era, hard to keep the D8E(?) plugs clean, even with this technique, and the D8ES-L and the X24ES-U saved the day. Today, unless you're tearing down the road in the 5k RPM-plus range on a regular basis, the colder fuels will not heat up the D8 heatrange, and plug fouling will result. The slower spark advance only helps up to 4k RPM ranges, after which the combustion cools off again and is controlled by plug heat and mixtures. Hotter = more power and MPG, cooler = less complete combustion, carbon buildup, and less efficiency. This is one reason why the "ugly" (say some) Vetter fairing, with lowers, generates the highest MPG on these bikes (always has) and the longest engine life: it encloses much of the engine and evens out the heat across the cylinders, even at hiway speeds. (Craig was pretty sharp...). But today, the ethanol in the gas boils in 100-degree traffic with the lowers, because the carbs get too hot. So, I pull off the lowers and increase the plug heat withthe X24ES-U plugs to balance things out again.

One neat thing about running these plugs that I haven't [yet] mentioned: they let you target the octane to make the bike run the best. For example, with D7E plugs in a 750, you'd better be running premium most all the time, as it will get hot from the plugs in [even] commuter traffic. The premium will burn further down the stroke and spread that heat out into more fins. If you switch to D8EA plugs, it is best to run low-grade fuel to heat up the head more with the shorter burn time, in the hopes of keeping the top end cleaner. If you go in-between with the D8ES-L or X24ES-U heatrange, you can run midgrade most of the time, premium on hiway trips, an regular in cold weather or pure in-town riding, and control the heat yourself. That's what I do. ;)

Has anyone noticed, this looks like an oil thread?
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline 70CB750

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Re: CB350F spark plugs: NGK D8EA vs. Denso X24ES-U - don't like Denso!
« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2013, 06:14:05 PM »
What if I run D7EA and am lucky enough to buy mostly pure gas - no ethanol?
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Offline RFogelsong

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Re: CB350F spark plugs: NGK D8EA vs. Denso X24ES-U - don't like Denso!
« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2013, 07:24:30 PM »
Hondaman, I thought we rode Honda's, you know, the ones that you can put fingernail clippings and barbeque sauce in and it'll run like a top all the way to California and back, ha ha  :P

Didn't know they were that temperamental,  Mine runs fine on crappy ethanol gas with old plugs all the way from freezing to 90 degree days.  I'm running NGK's too, but I need to change them.  Might try out the ND's just to experiment.
-Rob

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SOHC1:'74 CB125, '78 XL125
DOHC2:'71 CB450K
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DOHC4:'81 900F, '01 1100XX
V4:'85 VF1000R, '86 VF500F, '08 VFR800

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Re: CB350F spark plugs: NGK D8EA vs. Denso X24ES-U - don't like Denso!
« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2013, 09:39:15 PM »
What if I run D7EA and am lucky enough to buy mostly pure gas - no ethanol?

I'd sure suggest premium gas, then. I used to run the D7ES in the wintertime when I had no car and only rode the bike to work, short trips. And, after my steed sat 5 years after my cancer stint, I wanted to burn every bit of moisture out of it, and was commuting in heavy traffic at the time. I found some 'real' gas once in a while on that route, and it sure was smoother. The D7E plugs stayed pretty clean in all that 0-30 MPH riding for about 18 months, but on hotter days, if I had midgrade gas in it, I'd hear ping.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB350F spark plugs: NGK D8EA vs. Denso X24ES-U - don't like Denso!
« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2013, 09:51:31 PM »
Hondaman, I thought we rode Honda's, you know, the ones that you can put fingernail clippings and barbeque sauce in and it'll run like a top all the way to California and back, ha ha  :P

Didn't know they were that temperamental,  Mine runs fine on crappy ethanol gas with old plugs all the way from freezing to 90 degree days.  I'm running NGK's too, but I need to change them.  Might try out the ND's just to experiment.

Ha ha! :D

When I read this, my first thought was, "He must have a 500-4". It looks like a 550, from your sig? They are about as even-tempered a bike as Honda ever built. I remember a story of one guy with a 500-4, same model and color as my 1971 was, we used to ride together on Saturday nights for fun. He had gone to an auto paint store in Chillicothe, we lived in Macomb at the time: he wanted a 5-gallon can of extra-hot lacquer thinner to do some car painting. Well, on the way back, one of his carbs had stuck a float or something, and it drained out a bunch of his gas. He went on reserve earlier than expected, about 40 miles out of town, near midnight. You can figure the rest, as the 500-4 went a reliable 25-30 miles on reserve to bone dry: he stopped and noticed the leaking carb, rapped on it and it stopped leaking. Then he added a pint or so of his haul to the tank to make sure he'd make it home. He did, sure enough: when he brought his bike by two days later, it still smelled like something cool was in his fuel! He said it ran fine with a 25% or so mix of lacquer thinner.

In Missouri where I spent summers on the farm, there was also a backwoods acquaintence of mine who made hooch for the local 'shine runners: his Honda 90 never saw real gas, from what I remember. We could always tell when he was upwind, or passing by the house. :)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline silentsvn

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Re: CB350F spark plugs: NGK D8EA vs. Denso X24ES-U - don't like Denso!
« Reply #40 on: July 19, 2013, 05:11:35 AM »
HondaMan -

I know your'e talking about 550 and 750's (in this old thread) but just curious what would you recommend for a 350F?

I just installed Dyna S, Dyna 5 Ohm coils and Accel 8.8 plug wires yesterday and I'm running the NGK's DE8A at .030 gap.







I think that situation depends a little on your riding style? The 350F/400F bikes are super-winders, running for the 10K RPM mark every time they get the chance. This implies a colder plug could be helpful, if it is always ridden that way. But, most of us live in areas where either the speed limits are low enough or the traffic heavy enough that we can't keep the revs up as much in day-to-day riding, lest we just overheat things.

When I had my shop, it was in a small town surrounded by wide-open 2-lane roads through the hills and river valleys, with 65 MPH speed limits until the 1973 Congress clobbered all that with their 55 MPH sledge hammer. These bikes were designed to do...that. Today, we have cold gasoline that will not lube the top end, so going to a hotter plug to increase combustion power causes more stress on the rings and valve guides.

My solution (there may be others) has been to warm up the combustion a little bit, and then add top-end lube in one form or another. This can be done by slowing down the spark advance curve a little bit (trim off 1/2 turn of the spark advancer spring(s) so the burn takes longer at lower RPM and increases the startup heat as you roll through each accel-shift sequence, and the lube helps to clean the piston tops and keep the rings and guides cooler. It was, during the 55 MPH era, hard to keep the D8E(?) plugs clean, even with this technique, and the D8ES-L and the X24ES-U saved the day. Today, unless you're tearing down the road in the 5k RPM-plus range on a regular basis, the colder fuels will not heat up the D8 heatrange, and plug fouling will result. The slower spark advance only helps up to 4k RPM ranges, after which the combustion cools off again and is controlled by plug heat and mixtures. Hotter = more power and MPG, cooler = less complete combustion, carbon buildup, and less efficiency. This is one reason why the "ugly" (say some) Vetter fairing, with lowers, generates the highest MPG on these bikes (always has) and the longest engine life: it encloses much of the engine and evens out the heat across the cylinders, even at hiway speeds. (Craig was pretty sharp...). But today, the ethanol in the gas boils in 100-degree traffic with the lowers, because the carbs get too hot. So, I pull off the lowers and increase the plug heat withthe X24ES-U plugs to balance things out again.

One neat thing about running these plugs that I haven't [yet] mentioned: they let you target the octane to make the bike run the best. For example, with D7E plugs in a 750, you'd better be running premium most all the time, as it will get hot from the plugs in [even] commuter traffic. The premium will burn further down the stroke and spread that heat out into more fins. If you switch to D8EA plugs, it is best to run low-grade fuel to heat up the head more with the shorter burn time, in the hopes of keeping the top end cleaner. If you go in-between with the D8ES-L or X24ES-U heatrange, you can run midgrade most of the time, premium on hiway trips, an regular in cold weather or pure in-town riding, and control the heat yourself. That's what I do. ;)

Has anyone noticed, this looks like an oil thread?

Awesome info - Thanks Honda Man

Ya I usually take the 350F on the twisty's out in the country where I can wind her up. That sound of the small motors at 8-10K is f-ing amazing.

Only a little bit of stop and go traffic to get there more of the steady creeping at 20mph.


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Re: CB350F spark plugs: NGK D8EA vs. Denso X24ES-U - don't like Denso!
« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2019, 04:44:01 PM »
ND's back in the day were my choice. But having tried the new "Denso" plugs, I am now convinced they are not the plugs they once were. Sticking with NGK from now on.

Offline Don R

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Re: CB350F spark plugs: NGK D8EA vs. Denso X24ES-U - don't like Denso!
« Reply #42 on: March 06, 2019, 05:00:37 PM »
 I liked the ND's in my K0 836, so I put a set in my gl1000 too. It had a rusty gas tank and some related carb and plugged filter issues so I can't really say if I like them in there or not. It ran great last week when it got up to 40*. Those plugs got a lot of abuse from lean to flooded out. Still firing but I'll have a look after the next ride. 
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 11:21:02 PM by Don R »
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Re: CB350F spark plugs: NGK D8EA vs. Denso X24ES-U - don't like Denso!
« Reply #43 on: March 06, 2019, 05:16:17 PM »
ND's back in the day were my choice. But having tried the new "Denso" plugs, I am now convinced they are not the plugs they once were. Sticking with NGK from now on.

I recently bought several boxes of the Denso plugs (I use them a lot in the rebuilds). I have noticed they don't have the sharp edges on the ground electrodes like they used to, though? Have to wait a while to try them out: it has been so cold (and deep) around here lately that my bike looks like a lonely puppy in the garage...
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

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Offline 70CB750

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Re: CB350F spark plugs: NGK D8EA vs. Denso X24ES-U - don't like Denso!
« Reply #44 on: March 07, 2019, 04:08:07 AM »
Two Denso plugs died on me, went back to NGK.
Prokop
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: CB350F spark plugs: NGK D8EA vs. Denso X24ES-U - don't like Denso!
« Reply #45 on: March 07, 2019, 10:08:28 AM »
Two Denso plugs died on me...
Were they the "R" type?
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Re: CB350F spark plugs: NGK D8EA vs. Denso X24ES-U - don't like Denso!
« Reply #46 on: March 07, 2019, 10:58:35 AM »
I noticed many years ago that NGK can handle wrong jetted carbs, way too rich, better than other plugs. Continue to function when others died.

I found a year ago when carbs were almost OK, only small ignition deviation (a little bit too advanced) that Denso X24ES-U made engine to run smoother than NGK D8EA. I have used both NGK and Denso the last years while getting carbs to be correct. Frequent change of plugs ;)
Denso is my favourite on my K6 today.

I recommend to take bike to a dyno to check air/fuel ratio from low and slowly increasing throttle to measure pilot and needles. Followed by full throttle to verify main jet.

Float levels to be verified before, not floading on low. I had different a/f levels at WOT despite same mains, 2 carbs had a little bit lower float level causing leaner mix.

My K6 had hesitations and carb sputter on low I could fix with more fuel screw which fixed it but it was too stinking rich idle carbonizing plugs. Problem was too advanced ignition. When corrected, fuel screw to correct mix and no more carbonized plugs smelling rich on idle.

Advancer unit on CB750 must be set in its counterclockwise position of its play before tighten it. F, T and full advance will then match case mark.

If other end position of its play, ignition will be too advanced when matching up with case mark. I have seen this on 2 different cranks.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 11:18:30 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Xander^

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Re: CB350F spark plugs: NGK D8EA vs. Denso X24ES-U - don't like Denso!
« Reply #47 on: March 07, 2019, 08:04:47 PM »
so just a side question since were talking about spark plugs.. they didnt have D8EA when i stopped to buy plugs and i bought D9EA.. any ideas how this will work out for me?
1977 CB750K cafe

Online dave500

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Re: CB350F spark plugs: NGK D8EA vs. Denso X24ES-U - don't like Denso!
« Reply #48 on: March 08, 2019, 01:37:06 AM »
they will run colder and not burn off soot aswell as a lower number plug,you didn't know this already?dont use bosch plugs,they seem colder for the same heat range I think?
« Last Edit: March 08, 2019, 01:41:13 AM by dave500 »

Offline PeWe

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Re: CB350F spark plugs: NGK D8EA vs. Denso X24ES-U - don't like Denso!
« Reply #49 on: March 08, 2019, 03:47:01 AM »
they will run colder and not burn off soot aswell as a lower number plug,you didn't know this already?dont use bosch plugs,they seem colder for the same heat range I think?
I used Bosch Silver plugs back in the 80's. Very expensive and worked well for a few minutes until each cylinder died one by one. It was in same period where Nippon Denso did the same. All with recommended heat levels for CB750. NGK no problems. My carbs where very rich jetted but worked fine with NGK, strange, not smoking nor stinking.
This was with old good fuel before ethanol in tank instead of mouth when parked. ::)  :-\
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 05:47:00 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967