Author Topic: Engine rebuild question(s) - '72 CB750 motor  (Read 3956 times)

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Offline Eydugstr

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Engine rebuild question(s) - '72 CB750 motor
« on: November 15, 2012, 01:59:58 PM »
Hello all - working on a '72 cb750 motor.  About 400 leak-free miles after a rebuild, it began to leak from the valve cover, then began to burn oil.  The motor needed to come out anyway (found a better transmission - fourth gear was getting worn and would slip into neutral) so flipped the motor upside down and replaced the tranny with one in better shape.  I flipped the motor back over and now have the cam & towers off. 

My 1st question is this...If you're suspecting an oil leak coming from the rubber pucks, are there any tell tale signs from which one it is, once you have the cam towers off?

2nd question...Is there any way to identify the cam, going by the casting numbers?

last question...on the final (sprocket) drive shaft/sprocket holder, is there any gauge to go by for wear on the splines/retaining plate?  On most other bikes I've worked on there's always been a spacer in between the sprocket and the shaft, held on by a nut & lock washer at the end of the shaft.  On the cb750 there's a retaining plate with two holes that turns then is held by two bolts into the sprocket itself.

Thanks for your time.

Offline nitsua93

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Re: Re: Engine rebuild question(s) - '72 CB750 motor
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2012, 03:53:46 PM »
Hello all - working on a '72 cb750 motor.  About 400 leak-free miles after a rebuild, it began to leak from the valve cover, then began to burn oil.  The motor needed to come out anyway (found a better transmission - fourth gear was getting worn and would slip into neutral) so flipped the motor upside down and replaced the tranny with one in better shape.  I flipped the motor back over and now have the cam & towers off. 

My 1st question is this...If you're suspecting an oil leak coming from the rubber pucks, are there any tell tale signs from which one it is, once you have the cam towers off?

2nd question...Is there any way to identify the cam, going by the casting numbers?

last question...on the final (sprocket) drive shaft/sprocket holder, is there any gauge to go by for wear on the splines/retaining plate?  On most other bikes I've worked on there's always been a spacer in between the sprocket and the shaft, held on by a nut & lock washer at the end of the shaft.  On the cb750 there's a retaining plate with two holes that turns then is held by two bolts into the sprocket itself.

Thanks for your time.

On your last question about the final drive shaft I'd say to go with your gut. It's probably cheap to buy a new one and.you'd hate to tear the motor apart again just for that. Personally I'd replace it if there's noticeable marks of metal consistantly rubbing metal or if there's any play. I believe the motor I have of the same year has no play and looks in good shape.

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Engine rebuild question(s) - '72 CB750 motor
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2012, 10:55:49 PM »
Hello all - working on a '72 cb750 motor.  About 400 leak-free miles after a rebuild, it began to leak from the valve cover, then began to burn oil.  The motor needed to come out anyway (found a better transmission - fourth gear was getting worn and would slip into neutral) so flipped the motor upside down and replaced the tranny with one in better shape.  I flipped the motor back over and now have the cam & towers off. 

My 1st question is this...If you're suspecting an oil leak coming from the rubber pucks, are there any tell tale signs from which one it is, once you have the cam towers off?

2nd question...Is there any way to identify the cam, going by the casting numbers?

last question...on the final (sprocket) drive shaft/sprocket holder, is there any gauge to go by for wear on the splines/retaining plate?  On most other bikes I've worked on there's always been a spacer in between the sprocket and the shaft, held on by a nut & lock washer at the end of the shaft.  On the cb750 there's a retaining plate with two holes that turns then is held by two bolts into the sprocket itself.

Thanks for your time.

The puck leaks: try to follow the source direction of the oil. Most of the time, the outer ones leak before the inner ones, because of the more stable inner section of the head and the slower cool-down in the inner portions nearer the camchain tunnel. That's not to say they are not all leaking, though, if they were not new, or if they were some of the aftermarket ones like I had last Spring (too thin). For a little while there, I got some outside of gasket kits that had a too-thin lip on the outside edge, compared to the OEM types. The last ones I got in September seem to be better, now.

If yours are new, try adding a bead of Permatex non-hardening sealant around their edge, then wipe the ooze off the top side after you press them into place. On my 750, I still have the OEM ones from the 1980 top-end job I did (over 90k miles ago), and they don't leak a bit. The cam cover GASKET leaks because of hail hitting and cracking it in a freaky storm we had, but the pucks are still fine.

The casting number question: no. They were mold numbers, shared by the 2 engine building plants. The simplest way to check the cams is to measure the lift on the intake lobe(s), as they wear the fastest (more lift on them), and see what the number is: the K0/K1 early cams had 7.8mm lift or so, while the K2 had about 7.6mm. The late K3 was sometimes down to under 7.4mm. The F2/K7 cams have almost 8.0mm lift if young.

My 750, now at about 140k miles, has 7.44mm average across all 4 intake lobes, as an example. It was 7.65 average at 50k miles in 1980. Still tops 110 MPH easily though, pushing a Vetter fairing.

The final drive shaft: on the K0-K6 bikes, they are hard as nails. The sprockets are much softer, which is this particular design approach. The lube from the chain (don't use O-ring chinas on these bikes, for this reason) lubes the splines. Mine has barely-perceptible wear marks on it, even now, and I have worn out 8 countersprockets in these 41 years with it. My current "9th sprocket" is a pair of 17 and 18 tooth units that I switch back and forth, depending on whether I am commuting mostly, or going touring.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

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Offline Eydugstr

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Re: Engine rebuild question(s) - '72 CB750 motor
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2012, 12:47:34 AM »
Hondaman, nitsua93 - TY for the responses.  Used a set of pucks from a Cycle X gasket set last time;  Went ahead and ordered a set of OEM's.  Have another set of aftermarket pucks already, but will compare them and if I see a difference will take pics and post what I find.  Hopefully it was just a case of a small batch of pucks that were made out of spec.

So far from what I've found...it looks like the outer ones had cracks around the permatex sealer I used last time, so I'm assuming that they are the culprits.

Thanks again.

Offline Eydugstr

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Re: Engine rebuild question(s) - '72 CB750 motor
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2013, 04:22:21 PM »
Well, finally had a chance to start working on the bike again...and had a chance to compare Cycle X's aftermarket pucks with a set of OEM's (recently ordered from a dealer, not NOS).  Here's what I found...Measured both the same way, as the pictures show...

Cycle X puck


Cycle X puck, thickness at outer edge


OEM puck


OEM thickness


Anyone else ever ran into this?  Used a set of cycle X's the first time, used permatex #2 sealer (as described in Hondaman's book).
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 08:55:11 AM by Eydugstr »

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Engine rebuild question(s) - '72 CB750 motor
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2013, 05:26:51 PM »
I've run into it several times lately.  :-\

The 'thin' ones don't seal well. Honda's were thicker. I have tried a few things, like a thin shim steel piece (almost the size of a quarter?) on top of the 'new' rubber, hope it works. It has only been one riding season on them, so far.

There is another 750K5 coming to me in a month that I suspect has the thin ones in it. He rebuilt it using one of the red-colored gasket kits marked "Made in Japan" about 2 years ago, and now it leaks from right under the cam towers. I suspect those pucks, as I found the non-Vesrah pucks to be thin, like yours. I found some aftermarket, separate ones at PartsNmore and bought a bunch of them, and they were mixed: after I got the first shipment and found them good, ordered some more (they were out of stock for 3 weeks) and got the thin ones the second time.

So, check the depth of your "hole" where the seal sits. It should squish it between 6% and 10% of the total thickness, so you can consider the hole depth to be that 'squished fit' dimension. Subtract that number from the thickness of the rubber, then divide by the thickness and multiply that by 100 to get %. It should be a positive number, and between 6 & 10.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Engine rebuild question(s) - '72 CB750 motor
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2013, 04:27:59 AM »
Information like this scares the crap out of me.  I go through books, manual and this forum and now I just learn this random, important point.  I would never think of measuring pucks before installing and I was going to buy them from CycleX.

Anyway, another page printed for my shop manual, thank you!
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Engine rebuild question(s) - '72 CB750 motor
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2013, 04:41:19 AM »
So...the CycleX pucks are better as they are .006 thicker?
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Offline Harsh

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Re: Engine rebuild question(s) - '72 CB750 motor
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2013, 05:27:32 AM »
So...the CycleX pucks are better as they are .006 thicker?

That is what I was thinking.  They are not only thicker, but they are .027 wider as well.

Offline MRieck

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Re: Engine rebuild question(s) - '72 CB750 motor
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2013, 06:40:32 AM »
So...the CycleX pucks are better as they are .006 thicker?

That is what I was thinking.  They are not only thicker, but they are .027 wider as well.
Correct.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Engine rebuild question(s) - '72 CB750 motor
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2013, 04:33:21 PM »
So...the CycleX pucks are better as they are .006 thicker?

That is what I was thinking.  They are not only thicker, but they are .027 wider as well.
Correct.

That sounds like the 'good' ones.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Eydugstr

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Re: Engine rebuild question(s) - '72 CB750 motor
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2013, 06:33:58 AM »
Thanks everyone for the responses...Will go ahead and use Hondaman's formula and see what the "squish" percentage is.  But in the meantime ran into another parts issue....

Ordered a new OEM head gasket from the local dealer, only to learn that Honda discontinued the head gasket ( :o?!?!?!! ???) and that they had to get one from another dealer that showed they had it....and got this...





Out of shape cylinder bore rings





creases in gasket by cam chain opening



Guess my question is this...Is this an actual Honda OEM head gasket?  The packaging definitely didn't look like it was from Honda, but the gasket looked like it had the "bonding" stuff on it that's supposed to cure when the motor heats up.  Would there be any reason why the cylinder bore shapes would be out of round like that?


Offline HondaMan

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Re: Engine rebuild question(s) - '72 CB750 motor
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2013, 07:45:47 PM »
Those metal cylinder seals are supposed to look like that: they are 'deshrouds' for the valves. They are never round, nor should they be.

The seal goo sure looks like OEM Honda.

Those little creases at the cam chain tunnel: are they cracks in the gasket material? It's hard to tell in the photo.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Eydugstr

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Re: Engine rebuild question(s) - '72 CB750 motor
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2013, 05:15:11 AM »
It doesn't go all the way through, but yeah, I'd say it's cracked.

Offline Eydugstr

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Re: Engine rebuild question(s) - '72 CB750 motor
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2013, 08:52:52 AM »
I've run into it several times lately.  :-\

The 'thin' ones don't seal well. Honda's were thicker. I have tried a few things, like a thin shim steel piece (almost the size of a quarter?) on top of the 'new' rubber, hope it works. It has only been one riding season on them, so far.

There is another 750K5 coming to me in a month that I suspect has the thin ones in it. He rebuilt it using one of the red-colored gasket kits marked "Made in Japan" about 2 years ago, and now it leaks from right under the cam towers. I suspect those pucks, as I found the non-Vesrah pucks to be thin, like yours. I found some aftermarket, separate ones at PartsNmore and bought a bunch of them, and they were mixed: after I got the first shipment and found them good, ordered some more (they were out of stock for 3 weeks) and got the thin ones the second time.

So, check the depth of your "hole" where the seal sits. It should squish it between 6% and 10% of the total thickness, so you can consider the hole depth to be that 'squished fit' dimension. Subtract that number from the thickness of the rubber, then divide by the thickness and multiply that by 100 to get %. It should be a positive number, and between 6 & 10.

Can the squished fit be over 10? Because I'm reading the hole depth to be .088, which translates into 18% for the OEM Honda puck and 22% for the Cycle X puck.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Engine rebuild question(s) - '72 CB750 motor
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2013, 11:05:23 PM »
I've run into it several times lately.  :-\

The 'thin' ones don't seal well. Honda's were thicker. I have tried a few things, like a thin shim steel piece (almost the size of a quarter?) on top of the 'new' rubber, hope it works. It has only been one riding season on them, so far.

There is another 750K5 coming to me in a month that I suspect has the thin ones in it. He rebuilt it using one of the red-colored gasket kits marked "Made in Japan" about 2 years ago, and now it leaks from right under the cam towers. I suspect those pucks, as I found the non-Vesrah pucks to be thin, like yours. I found some aftermarket, separate ones at PartsNmore and bought a bunch of them, and they were mixed: after I got the first shipment and found them good, ordered some more (they were out of stock for 3 weeks) and got the thin ones the second time.

So, check the depth of your "hole" where the seal sits. It should squish it between 6% and 10% of the total thickness, so you can consider the hole depth to be that 'squished fit' dimension. Subtract that number from the thickness of the rubber, then divide by the thickness and multiply that by 100 to get %. It should be a positive number, and between 6 & 10.

Can the squished fit be over 10? Because I'm reading the hole depth to be .088, which translates into 18% for the OEM Honda puck and 22% for the Cycle X puck.

I'll have to go measure a head to see if those number correspond? I don't remember the depth, offhand. Normal buna seal squish is low for static seals like these. If it gets to be too thick, then the cam towers might not sit level, but that would be hard to imagine. The buna shrinks about 4% after its "life" is reached, which is about 5 years or so in this application. That's why I like to add some non-hardening Permatex around the rim of these.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Eydugstr

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Re: Engine rebuild question(s) - '72 CB750 motor
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2013, 07:08:38 AM »
Hondaman - TY for your responses & opinions.   

But given what's going on between the width differences in the aftermarket/OEM pucks, do you think this could have affected how the small o-rings that surround the oil jets sealed?  My bike's a K2, takes the smaller 4mm o-rings around the jets.  When I rebuilt it, I used the non hardening permatex that you recommended in your book.  Also,  previously the bike had been running on 10w40, but after the rebuild used 20w50.  It's also running with an oil cooler.