Topic: CB500/550/350F/400F Ignition 'hopup' kit: how much interest?

[HondaMan]

An H4 bulb included with the kit would make it a very good buy for me.

Gee, all I would need now are the GOOD points for my project.  Have you a source for those, Mark?

I have the ignition and your fuse blocks on my 750 and they work very well. 

I can't wait to up grade my 550.

Steve

Honda still sold them, last time I looked. Not cheap, but may be the last ones you'll ever need.

[HondaMan]

My 400F runs very well on the stock ignition. Would I see any improvement using your proposed kit?

Most of the 400F/350F owners report improved starting and easier revving (if you can imagine that with the Baby Fours!). This would certainly help with the 400F, as they can be harder to start. The 350F usually starts before you can release the button!

[HondaMan]

i already have the 3ohm dyna coils... how much for the suggested 2ohm resistor pack?

I only have a couple of those at the moment. They cost more than the 1.0 ohm version, just because the shipping is split amongst the few resistors I last bought. PM me for details?

[donpark1086]

I set up the stock coils, used but good plugs, and new points for my CB350F rebuild. 

The point's heels wore a bit within 2000 miles and the gaps closed somewhat but she ran fine and I just regapped at 0.012 inches. 

Then at an additional 6000 miles I started to get a misfire.  One set of points did a metal transfer due to incorrect capacitance, the other set looked great.  Fired from the end of a 5000 to 6000 rpm crankshaft, these are hard working points and lasted a lost time.  Compared to a low revving bike with point on the half speed cam shaft.

But having said that, I'm spoiled by set and forget modern ignition systems.  So I'd surely consider a non wearing system. 

Price level must be considered, but cheap and stranded does cut it either.

[CaféElite]

im in...

[Sparked]

any idea on when they will be a available? price range?

[jackseattle]

very interested, add me to your list

[HondaMan]

any idea on when they will be a available? price range?

Working on that very question, myself!

[KennyRedman]

I would absolutely be interested in this.

[Lostboy Steve]

Hey Hondaman, why can't we just use 5ohm coils less the resistor packs?

The alternator-challenged smaller SOHC4 bikes CB350F/400F/500F/550F always struggle with low-battery issues when spark 'hop-up' stuff is attempted. I get LOTS of e-mail about the resulting problems, and those of you who have sent them know I pretty much answer the same way in most cases.

So...if I created a "kit" that would improve the spark without enslaving these alternators, where you could get the whole shebang in one box, would there be much interest? This 'kit' would consist of the following, if I can find the parts for a reasonable cost:

1. Hondaman Ignition module.
2. Dyna 3-ohm coils with copper-core spark wires.
3. Resistor Pack, 2-ohm value.
4. 10,000 ohm NGK plug caps, set of 4 (kinda hard to find...).
5. ND sparkplugs of the correct heat range for the bike.

This package would create the following specs:

Spark voltage of approximately 9700 volts (OEM is 7500 volts).
Spark duration of 1.25mS (OEM is 1.45mS).
Current draw of 2.50 amps (OEM is 2.6 amps).

The advantages are:
1. You would use a sparkplug gap of 0.030" to 0.032" (OEM is 0.024"-0.028"), resulting in a larger flamefront.
2. The coil's spark wires are replaceable.
3. This 'system' uses less power than even Honda's OEM setup.
4. This 'system' provides 25% more spark voltage and 20% more spark energy (mostly used for 'bragging rights' with your friends...).
5. The points last a VERY long time (and provide 100% backup if the Module fails), greatly reducing tuneup intervals.
6. Cold-bloodedness (on the post-1974 bikes) is greatly reduced.

Of course, you can use these same components yourself and get the same results (I will offer the 2.0 ohm Resistor Packs on my website shortly), the only advantage being possibly the one-box-fits-it approach.

It won't be cheap! The coils are expensive, for starters. I am considering a "group buy" from Dyna or ACCEL (if they will do it) if there might be enough interest? Right now, I don't know how much 'interest' might be in numbers, but will investigate after I see some feedback here for a while.

[HondaMan]

Hey Hondaman, why can't we just use 5ohm coils less the resistor packs?

The alternator-challenged smaller SOHC4 bikes CB350F/400F/500F/550F always struggle with low-battery issues when spark 'hop-up' stuff is attempted. I get LOTS of e-mail about the resulting problems, and those of you who have sent them know I pretty much answer the same way in most cases.

So...if I created a "kit" that would improve the spark without enslaving these alternators, where you could get the whole shebang in one box, would there be much interest? This 'kit' would consist of the following, if I can find the parts for a reasonable cost:

1. Hondaman Ignition module.
2. Dyna 3-ohm coils with copper-core spark wires.
3. Resistor Pack, 2-ohm value.
4. 10,000 ohm NGK plug caps, set of 4 (kinda hard to find...).
5. ND sparkplugs of the correct heat range for the bike.

This package would create the following specs:

Spark voltage of approximately 9700 volts (OEM is 7500 volts).
Spark duration of 1.25mS (OEM is 1.45mS).
Current draw of 2.50 amps (OEM is 2.6 amps).

The advantages are:
1. You would use a sparkplug gap of 0.030" to 0.032" (OEM is 0.024"-0.028"), resulting in a larger flamefront.
2. The coil's spark wires are replaceable.
3. This 'system' uses less power than even Honda's OEM setup.
4. This 'system' provides 25% more spark voltage and 20% more spark energy (mostly used for 'bragging rights' with your friends...).
5. The points last a VERY long time (and provide 100% backup if the Module fails), greatly reducing tuneup intervals.
6. Cold-bloodedness (on the post-1974 bikes) is greatly reduced.

Of course, you can use these same components yourself and get the same results (I will offer the 2.0 ohm Resistor Packs on my website shortly), the only advantage being possibly the one-box-fits-it approach.

It won't be cheap! The coils are expensive, for starters. I am considering a "group buy" from Dyna or ACCEL (if they will do it) if there might be enough interest? Right now, I don't know how much 'interest' might be in numbers, but will investigate after I see some feedback here for a while.

Those work OK, they just are not a "performance upgrade". They make about the same spark as the OEM coils (about 90% of the duration).

This idea has been spawned as I am working on the CB750 Performance book pieces and parts. These engines appreciate a longer duration spark MUCH more than a so-called "hotter" spark. The problem for the Mid Four has always been in finding a way to get a longer spark while using the same (or less) amperage from the small alternator. One way was to use the fine-wire sparkplugs that NGK made for a few years, with .045" gaps, but the plugs wore out in 5k miles.

So instead, using the hi-output 3-ohm coils (35kV at .055" gap), current-limited with a 2-ohm primary resistance and higher (10k ohm) plug caps to lengthen their short (0.9mS) discharge, then reducing the spark gap to .035" (from .055") to accommodate the difference, will make about 1.25-1.30mS spark of more than 20kV. If testing shows, it could also use gaps of maybe .040" for a slightly longer-yet spark, but right now this is conjecture as flameout can occur at high RPM with too-big gaps.  But, this should allow for a stronger midrange for sure, while boosting the weak top end spark the OEM coils always delivered. One old fix was to use the 750 coils in their place, which also helped a little (and was the start of this little 'bunny trail', years ago...). Honda attempted to do this with the 550F bike (and post-1976 750) by simply installing 10K ohm sparkplug caps: this actually works for a little while until the caps burn out a little and become more than 250 ohms different: then the lesser resistance side bleeds off about 25% of the total spark and things go downhill quick.

[Nikon1975]

I would be very interested !!! I think I should through in also the Dyna-S to replace the point to have everything making sense.

Thanks,

Davide

P.S. My first post. Would you ship to Austria, Europe ?

[HondaMan]

I would be very interested !!! I think I should through in also the Dyna-S to replace the point to have everything making sense.

Thanks,

Davide

P.S. My first post. Would you ship to Austria, Europe ?

The Dyna S is the biggest problem of all for the 500/550 bikes. It uses about 1.25 amps MORE than points, and produces less spark at the same time. Even Dyna admits that at best, it "...makes about the same spark as points", which was as close to a performance statement as they ever published. Many, many SOHC4 riders here will attest to this problem.

That's why I am attempting to cook up something different that can actually INCREASE the spark for the Mid Fours, which no one has ever actually accomplished before.

[Nikon1975]

Yes, I read about after my post. I am even more interested.

Thanks,

Davide

[dave500]

http://www.gremlinracetech.com/product/BBMP

[HondaMan]

http://www.gremlinracetech.com/product/BBMP

Yep, the Boyer-Brandsen has been around since the 1970s in various forms. I finally threw away the 4 dead ones I had, about 5 years ago...

[dave500]

that link is to the modern micro power,that does actually increase the spark and free up charging power,theyre still here since the 70s,a few have come and gone in that time and a few just have the same old unit.

[dave500]

the boyer micro power is a true "hop up" kit that will at the same time free up charging power,if you want to retain points dont even consider it,if you want the fall back of points dont consider it,although if your looking for a more solid charging rate even at lower rpms along with a higher spark output at the same time and are prepared to spend some money on a reliable unit you might consider using the boyer micro power system,too many dynas have thrown a dark shadow on any electronic systems as a whole,,the pamco unit would also be a good choice ive never used one but the ever failing dynas swings me that way,,the other option is dark,,very dark,,a hybrid of GM/bosch modules coupled with susy or cb650 pick ups etc,a mish mash of solid reliable parts,the boyer pick up plate can even be used,,you never heard it from me mind you??so?how do i set my points again?i think ive got one and two squared away?but the gap keeps changing?now they wont spark?it wouldnt surprise me to find 98%of any electronic ignition failure is due to installer error?wrong coils or wrong connections,,#$%* me dead,,half the #$%*s on any forum cant even get their #$%*ing indicators working,yet will #$%* can an electronic ignition system?

[oldbob]

it wouldnt surprise me to find 98%of any electronic ignition failure is due to installer error?wrong coils or wrong connections,,#$%* me dead,,half the #$%*s on any forum cant even get their #$%*ing indicators working,yet will #$%* can an electronic ignition system?

Yeah, but how do you really feel? 

Bob

[Kingmambo]

I would be interested as my next-in-line project is a '75 550 to be done when my '72 750K is complete.  Thanks.

[Bailgang]

it wouldnt surprise me to find 98%of any electronic ignition failure is due to installer error?wrong coils or wrong connections,,#$%* me dead,,half the #$%*s on any forum cant even get their #$%*ing indicators working,yet will #$%* can an electronic ignition system?

+1, nah they just think their cam is 180 out. 
I will however give our Hondaman a shoutout for taking the time to come up with something for the 500/550's, it just gives us 500/550 owners something else to choose from in regards to ignitions. Having variety in parts availability is cool.

[Shoobie]

very interested, add me to the list.

[vma03]

Wish I knew about this before I spend the better part of the week trying work out why I wasn't getting any spark. Went from kill switch to coils to plugs and then back to coils back to kill switch, then over to ignition switch and now working on points...finally got spark on 1-3 (by the way, much easier to see a spark when it's dark out)

Anyway point being...depending on price, I'm in!

Now on to the fuel part of spark+fuel+compression=starting

[buckett]

definitely interested!

[dave500]

yeah the hondaman unit is solid,and a good investment,ive never used one, but anything hondaman does is genuine,and its a good choice for those who want to retain points for the fall back advantage,you also get the hondaman quality back up service and no bull #$%* should the very rare warranty case arrive.