Author Topic: Off idle hesitation 75 CB 550 K  (Read 3655 times)

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Offline hereforever23

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Off idle hesitation 75 CB 550 K
« on: May 07, 2013, 07:30:01 AM »
I have been slowly fine-tuning my 1975 CB550K.  It has a single K&N filter, a 4 into 2 exhaust (Jardine maybe?) with 100 main jets and 38 pilots.  The needle positions are 4th groove from top

The bike starts right up with very minimal use of the choke.  I only ever have to use it when its very cold and even then I usually turn it off within 30 seconds of so.  Right after the bike is started it runs great...pulls smoothly through the gears at all throttle settings

With the air mix screws set at 1 1/2 turns out I get some hesitation off idle once the bike gets warm (after approximately 20 minutes).  With the bike warm I have tried adjusting the screws 1/4 turn at a time both in and out with better results turning the screws out.  Currently I have the screws set at 2 3/4 turns out and it is better but still not completely smooth when the bike is fully warm.  The fact that it runs worse as it warms up makes me think it is running rich at and just off of idle.  I guess I could go out another 1/4 turn or so and see but I imagine the next step would be putting in smaller pilot jets?

Before turning the air screws 2 3/4 turns out the plugs were a little dark but now they seem to be headed towards a nice tan color– the mileage has been poor ~25mpg around town (all city riding) but I'll see next fillup if that is improving at all

Offline flybox1

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Re: Off idle hesitation 75 CB 550 K
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2013, 08:19:40 AM »
when was the last time you cleaned and charged your K&N?

'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
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Offline hereforever23

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Re: Off idle hesitation 75 CB 550 K
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2013, 08:22:48 AM »
The air filter is new.  The previous owner had installed K&N pods- I installed the plenum / K&N mono filter

Offline Bankerdanny

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Re: Off idle hesitation 75 CB 550 K
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2013, 08:30:29 AM »
I typically go mid 30's in city riding on my 550, with mid to high 40's (even got 51 once) on the highway.
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Current: '76 CB750F. Previous:  '75 CB550F, 2007 Yamaha Vino 125 Scooter, '75 Harley FXE Superglide, '77 GL1000, '77 CB550k, '68 Suzuki K10 80, '68 Yamaha YR2, '69 BMW R69S, '71 Honda SL175, '02 Royal Enfield Bullet 500, '89 Yamaha FJ1200

Offline flybox1

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Re: Off idle hesitation 75 CB 550 K
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2013, 08:34:37 AM »
now that you've installed the plenum, and K&N, you're rich...
id guess either the filter is over-oiled = decreased air flow, or,  the PO drilled out the pilot jets (to tune for his pods). pull one to check.
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline hereforever23

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Re: Off idle hesitation 75 CB 550 K
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2013, 08:44:50 AM »
The K&N filter came pre-oiled from K&N
The PO installed the pilot jets (I think they're aftermarket) but when I had asked him about rejetting for pods he said he had not. I think he would have mentioned if he had drilled the jets out (I know I can't necessarily assume anything) but he kept very meticulous notes about everything he had done to the bike and mentioned nothing about drilling jets
Could aftermarket pilot jets be the problem?  I can check through his notes and see what kind of carb kit he used to rebuild the carbs

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Off idle hesitation 75 CB 550 K
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2013, 08:50:59 AM »
Agree with others that you are rich on your pilot circuit. Definitely check if your current pilots are drilled... if not, step down to 35 or so.

If your mileage is that poor you're probably rich in the midrange too ... or your emulsions are dirty.

IW

Offline flybox1

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Re: Off idle hesitation 75 CB 550 K
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2013, 09:04:31 AM »
The K&N filter came pre-oiled from K&N
The PO installed the pilot jets (I think they're aftermarket) but when I had asked him about rejetting for pods he said he had not. I think he would have mentioned if he had drilled the jets out (I know I can't necessarily assume anything) but he kept very meticulous notes about everything he had done to the bike and mentioned nothing about drilling jets
Could aftermarket pilot jets be the problem?  I can check through his notes and see what kind of carb kit he used to rebuild the carbs
yes.  even if they have #38 stamped on them, they may not be .38mm  aftermarket brass parts have been found to have many differences from OEM.  see if they have any other stamping on them.  look for a keihin logo(OEM)
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline hereforever23

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Re: Off idle hesitation 75 CB 550 K
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2013, 09:09:01 AM »
Alright.......I guess I'll take a deep breath and pull those carbs again......

Offline crazypj

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Re: Off idle hesitation 75 CB 550 K
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2013, 09:09:01 AM »
Needle at 4th from top sounds way too rich to me although the 'K' has different carbs to the 'F'
I would try 2nd groove from top, raising needle compensates for wrong slide cut away
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Offline hereforever23

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Re: Off idle hesitation 75 CB 550 K
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2013, 09:09:52 AM »
4th from top is stock according the carb settings chart TwoTired posted

Offline Bankerdanny

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Re: Off idle hesitation 75 CB 550 K
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2013, 09:47:19 AM »
The K and the F carbs are the same until 1977, when the K bikes got new carbs but the F did not.
"The problem with quotes on the Internet is that you never know if they're true" - Abraham Lincoln

Current: '76 CB750F. Previous:  '75 CB550F, 2007 Yamaha Vino 125 Scooter, '75 Harley FXE Superglide, '77 GL1000, '77 CB550k, '68 Suzuki K10 80, '68 Yamaha YR2, '69 BMW R69S, '71 Honda SL175, '02 Royal Enfield Bullet 500, '89 Yamaha FJ1200

Offline Duanob

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Re: Off idle hesitation 75 CB 550 K
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2013, 04:22:03 PM »
The K and the F carbs are the same until 1977, when the K bikes got new carbs but the F did not.

Different settings as far as the needle position. I have both bikes 1976 K and F and they are different.

One quick and easy way to check the filter is to pull it out and run the bike for around the block a few times. If you're running a bit lean as compared to the rich condition you have now, then you know its the filter. Also how do you know what the conditions are, have you checked your plugs?
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Offline hereforever23

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Re: Off idle hesitation 75 CB 550 K
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2013, 08:40:29 PM »
Well I pulled my carbs again
The main jets are genuine Keihin but the pilot jets are aftermarket
I ordered a set of genuine 38 pilot jets- hopefully that will clear up the issue...will post an update in a week or so once its back up and running

Offline hereforever23

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Re: Off idle hesitation 75 CB 550 K
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2013, 07:37:37 AM »
Short update...
I thought I was buying a set of genuine Keihin 38 pilot jets but in fact I was sent 4 keyster jets.  I've got them in there now and still having some off-idle hesitation once warm...now with the air screws 1 1/2 turns out.  Haven't had a chance to try backing the screws off a little at a time but I will post another update if I can get it dialed in

Offline hereforever23

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Re: Off idle hesitation 75 CB 550 K
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2013, 07:08:02 AM »
Update #2-
The bike seems to run the same or worse as before pulling the carbs.

Still running rich off idle-  Once the bike warms up there is some hesitation and popping when I release the throttle.  Turning the air screws out makes it get better and using a little choke makes it worse.  But I have the air screws 3 turns out and still having problems.

I ordered some OEM 35 pilot jets and I'm hoping that clears up the problem.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Off idle hesitation 75 CB 550 K
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2013, 03:43:49 PM »
The stock settings from the chart should work well for your bike, assuming that the exhaust has some baffling in it.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the main emulsion tubes.  If the air bleed holes in them are plugged, the mid and high range mixtures will be rich, mileage will suffer, etc.  Attempting to compensate for that with the idle screws will make the part throttle response from idle "wheezy".

Also, check the length of the pilot jets.  Cheap ones with shorten the length and the "quantity" of fuel stored in the jet tube.  I much prefer the original Keihin jet.

THAT should evoke 50 replies with testimonials that aftermarket are "no problem".
However, my 550's got 45-55 MPG with the stock components during the 80's and 90's (mixed in town and highway driving).   Yes, all the crotch rocket bikes were faster. 

Choke use will be highly interdependent on outside temp and the machine's temp.  On a cold morning you'll have to drive with partial choke until the engine warms up, incrementally nudging the choke off for the first mile or so (longer in winter).  With the carbs and engine tuned correctly, you apply just enough choke to make the engine produce acceleration power to get up to posted speed.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 04:16:39 PM by TwoTired »
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline scottly

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Re: Off idle hesitation 75 CB 550 K
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2013, 04:08:09 PM »
hereforever, you may want to read this thread:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=112370.0
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Offline hereforever23

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Re: Off idle hesitation 75 CB 550 K
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2013, 07:18:38 PM »
Thanks  to both of you for replying. 

Scottly, I have read that thread.  Wish I had read that before I ordered from Sirius.  Their website is misleading since it states Keihin and the Honda part # for their jets and doesn't make mention of the fact that they are actually Keyster replacement parts.

I checked the emulsion tubes and the holes are all clear.  I get much better mileage when I head out of the city, its really just in city riding where my mileage suffers.  I meant using the choke a little after it warms up makes it worse.  Also I tried running it without the air filter around the block a couple times.  The hesitation was possibly marginally better but I am still getting a lot of popping when I quickly release the throttle

I have ordered OEM 38 pilot jets and also a set of 35 pilot jets from SCI since I couldn't find OEM anywhere.  I'll compare what I ordered from Sirius to the OEM jets when they come

The baffles are in good shape in the 4-2 exhaust. Judging by all the threads I've read here I would have thought stock settings would be ok.  Not sure why I would have to rejet, especially since you would think the K&N would make it run leaner not richer

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Off idle hesitation 75 CB 550 K
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2013, 04:40:40 PM »
How the engine recovers from hesitation is what tells you whether it was too lean or too rich.

If the engine comes back with instant power cleanly, it was too lean.

If it burbles back into operation it was too rich, as it takes a few fire cycles to clean up/clear out the excess fuel.

It is not normal to have hesitation from throttle twist, unless you twist it more than half of available travel.  Suddenly opening the slides at low RPM negates carb throat vacuum, which is the only thing pulling fuel into the carb throats.  No fuel - no power.  The only pressure to push fuel through the jets comes from outside atmospheric.
  There needs to be rapid airflow through the venturi for it to create significant low pressure levels.  Otherwise the only thing to make fuel draw is the downward fall of the piston on the intake stroke.  With the slide snapped open, the intake stoke vacuum is equalized very quickly, quicker than the fuel can be drawn into the carb throat.  All the CB550s are wheezy in this regard when the twist grip is abused.

BTW, the air screws on the early carbs are adjusted to get that 1/2 twist throttle response (in any gear at low RPM).  Mark your throttle.  If it wheezes, the air screw gets turned inward just enough for it to stop doing that.  More than what is required, adds to plug fouling.  You should also be using D7EA spark plugs, unless you are redlining it through desert heat.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Ian_Butler

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Re: Off idle hesitation 75 CB 550 K
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2013, 05:30:11 PM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but these might be a good place to start to determine the problem. Jetting might not be the only issue.

http://www.championparts.com/carb_troubleshooting_guide.pdf

http://www.jba.bc.ca/JBCycle/Resources/jet-chart.jpg

Let me know what you guys think of these as general guides.

+1 on the throttle position marking!
~ Ian

1974 CB550K

“In a car you're always in a compartment, and because you're used to it you don't realize that through that car window everything you see is just more TV. You're a passive observer and it is all moving by you boringly in a frame. On a cycle the frame is gone. You're completely in contact with it all. You're in the scene, not just watching it anymore, and the sense of presence is overwhelming.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

Offline hereforever23

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Re: Off idle hesitation 75 CB 550 K
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2013, 06:39:13 PM »
Yes it burbles back after the hesitation.  This hesitation is only happening right after throttle, I'd say between 1/16 and 1/8 throttle, but I will mark my grip with tape to check that.  I don't know if I would be running lean or rich at other throttle settings.  Its difficult to do a proper plug chop since I live in the city and there isn't a lot of wide open space to stay at one setting for long.

I have D7EA plugs in, gapped correctly. I'm positing a picture of what they look like pulled from the bike after my ride back from work.

I have a more frustrating problem that seems to have just started yesterday though which is that I have some kind of oil leak coming from the top end. I definitely see oil bubbling up out of the tach seal and I am also seeing oil collecting on the fins and around the cylinder head gasket but I can't tell if it is all coming from the seal or whether it is coming from more than one place.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Off idle hesitation 75 CB 550 K
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2013, 10:24:30 PM »
What is the number stamped on the slide needles?  Have you measured them?

How many and what are the size of the bleed holes in the emulsion tubes?  Have you measured the needle jet hole size?

Have you verified the air bleed jet is clear and the passages free flowing?

Has there been a vacuum balance of the carbs?

When ones needs to rejet, it is normally done by getting the main right first, the mid range (needle size, position, and taper angle) second, and then the pilot circuit is tuned.  Each adjustment has some effect on the others, so it is sometimes a reiterative process.  I can't imagine getting it right without a dyno or a test track with gobs of patience and tinkering.

If you wish to avoid the tinkering, put the stock air filter box back on.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline crazypj

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Re: Off idle hesitation 75 CB 550 K
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2013, 10:31:21 AM »
re-set float height 1mm higher than stock
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Offline hereforever23

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Re: Off idle hesitation 75 CB 550 K
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2013, 10:16:57 AM »
What is the number stamped on the slide needles?  Have you measured them?

272304 is stamped on the side, which I believe makes it a Keihin part.  I measured the needle profile to some specs you listed on another post and got the same measurements.

Quote
How many and what are the size of the bleed holes in the emulsion tubes?  Have you measured the needle jet hole size

There are 5 holes and the needle jet hole size is correct. I'm attaching a picture of my emulsion tubes.  2 of the tubes have a bit of corrosion (on the outside of the tubes)

Quote
Have you verified the air bleed jet is clear and the passages free flowing?
Has there been a vacuum balance of the carbs?

Yes to both.

Quote
When ones needs to rejet, it is normally done by getting the main right first, the mid range (needle size, position, and taper angle) second, and then the pilot circuit is tuned.  Each adjustment has some effect on the others, so it is sometimes a reiterative process.  I can't imagine getting it right without a dyno or a test track with gobs of patience and tinkering.

If you wish to avoid the tinkering, put the stock air filter box back on.

I managed to scrounge up the parts to put a stock box back in with a UNI filter, but the bike is running the same.  Pulls wonderfully and smoothly at mid to full throttle but some hesitation and burbling off idle once the bike is warm.

The main jets and slow jets are Keyster 100 and 38, respectively.  I'm waiting for new OEM jets to arrive along with a new tach seal which will hopefully clear up that oil leak I noticed. 

To the poster suggesting raising the float height... I guess that would lean the mixture out since the fuel level would be lower?