Author Topic: Show and describe your brake system upgrades for 550/750 K bikes.  (Read 5612 times)

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Offline scottly

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Re: Show and describe your brake system upgrades for 550/750 K bikes.
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2013, 09:58:26 PM »


Early style fork lowers with C-Type bracket, thinned and drilled rotors by Godfrey, EBC pads, new pistons, stainless lines and alloy brake tubes, new Mike's XS tracker style master. Noticeable improvement over stock, but still not safe with the go fast mods that I have. The early style caliper bracket is a pita to work with, relative to the T-type. I'm still looking for options.
What is the piston size of the master from Mike's? They have MCs in a wide range of piston sizes. The main issue with the C-type brackets is getting the right side bracket aligned so the caliper is centered and parallel with the rotor.
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Offline Hummel

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Re: Show and describe your brake system upgrades for 550/750 K bikes.
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2013, 02:51:50 AM »


Cb900 fork with two double piston calibers. Cb750 front hub with 2,5 wheel. And two cb750 disk with holes in.

Can't wait to feel the braking difference from the original cb750 setup

Offline sethdhawkins

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Re: Show and describe your brake system upgrades for 550/750 K bikes.
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2013, 02:59:52 AM »
Scottly,

It's a 16mm bore (5/8) master. I have a twofold issue with the front brakes. The first, is the caliper arms have some longitudinal play in them. I've started a thread asking about this. The second, is the idea of getting the pad perfectly straight, and the act of getting it perfectly straight are two entirely different actions. It would've been made much simpler, if I had not started with super thick EBC pads for mockup. It's fairly straight, seen in the pad contact area. Stopping power is very good, I just don't like the feel. Please feel free to comment on the other thread I posted.

Seth
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Offline sethdhawkins

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Re: Show and describe your brake system upgrades for 550/750 K bikes.
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2013, 04:07:48 AM »
Hummel,

I'd like some more information on the setup you have there.

Seth
All a man needs in this world is someone to love, if you can't give him that, give him hope, if you can't give him hope...just give him something to do!

1972-ish CB750K
1974 CB450
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Offline Psychonaut

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Re: Show and describe your brake system upgrades for 550/750 K bikes.
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2013, 06:16:00 AM »
The modern bike comparison won't add up anyway. Most modern bikes with good brakes have far superior forks and frames, you put gsxr1000 brakes on your 40 year old bike and expect it to brake like a gixxer and you would be wrong, fork and frame flex should be taken into account, in saying that, the modern upgrades are better than stock, just don't all of a sudden expect your old bike to be a modern one.... ;)  {yes, i've had plenty of both}

Have you ridden an old bike with modern bike brakes?, not just dual CB brakes. There is a huge difference. You are stopping a spinning wheel, frame and fork don't matter unless it's a track bike.

Offline RSchaefer

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Re: Show and describe your brake system upgrades for 550/750 K bikes.
« Reply #30 on: May 17, 2013, 06:26:54 AM »
Scottly,

It's a 16mm bore (5/8) master. I have a twofold issue with the front brakes. The first, is the caliper arms have some longitudinal play in them. I've started a thread asking about this. The second, is the idea of getting the pad perfectly straight, and the act of getting it perfectly straight are two entirely different actions. It would've been made much simpler, if I had not started with super thick EBC pads for mockup. It's fairly straight, seen in the pad contact area. Stopping power is very good, I just don't like the feel. Please feel free to comment on the other thread I posted.

Seth

Not sure what you are meaning by longitudinal movement, I have the "T" type caliber and there are "O" rings on either side of the pivot to prevent up and down movement.  Also according to HondaMan you do not want to strive for the caliper (brake pads) to be parallel to the rotor, I think the nose (front) of the puck is to contact the rotor 1st, so the caliber is mounted at a slight angle to the rotor.
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Offline Dave Voss

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Re: Show and describe your brake system upgrades for 550/750 K bikes.
« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2013, 09:05:09 AM »
In thoery (and if the brakes are assembled correctly), the caliper will be parallel with the rotor when the pads are half-worn.  When the pads are new, the caliper is closer to the rotor, which creates a slight angle from parallel.  Likewise, when the pads are fully worn, the caliper is farther away from the rotor, also creating a slight angle from parallel, but opposite from when the pads are new.  So, as the pads wear from new to worn, the caliper moves farther away from the rotor, and from being at a slight angle in one direction to being at a slight angle in the opposite direction, passing through parallel in the middle of the wear life of the pads.

The inboard pad (closest to the wheel) has a raised center on the backside, which creates a high-center as it sits in the holder, and this allows that pad to wobble as necessary to maintain parallel alignment with the rotor throughout the life of the pad, regardless of the slight angle that the caliper has with the rotor.  It is important that the cotter pin that retains the pad in its holder is not too tight, as this can restrict the wobble that is necessary for correct pad-to-rotor alignment.

The outboard pad (at the caliper) typically wants to remain parallel with the caliper piston, and so it begins to wear at the same slight angle as the caliper is to the rotor, until it develops full contact with the rotor.  Then, this pad continues to wear at a slightly changing angle to maintain flat contact with the rotor as the opposite pads wears thinner and causes the caliper-to-rotor angle to change.

The effectiveness and the feel of the brakes are affected by the variances in pad-to-rotor contact, and so it is important to ensure that the pads are aligned correctly in the caliper and with the rotor.  New pads will need some time and use to become fully bedded-in due to the wear angle that is typical for the outboard pad, and full stopping power won't be realized until after this occurs.  Also, if the pads are close to being fully worn, the amount of brake fluid in the circuit is quite a bit more (since the piston is extended farther out), and this also affects the brake feel, so it is often considered good practice to replace the pads before they are fully worn.

If for instance, the pads were to always be replaced when they were 1/2 worn, then the caliper alignment would go from being at a certain angle when new, to being parallel at that 1/2 worn point.  In this case, the caliper could be shimmed slightly away from the fork leg and towards the rotor to reduce the slight angle of the caliper when the pads are new, which reduces the bedding time of the outboard pad.  This would also allow the caliper to become parallel with the rotor when the pads were about 1/4 worn, and create an angle in the opposite direction when the pads were 1/2 worn.  In other words, deciding to retire pads earlier and shimming the caliper to reduce the off-parallel angle that is the nature of the stock caliper setup, can improve the feel of the brakes, especially when the pads are new and in the process of bedding in.

Attention to this type of detail is not going to transform the stock brakes, but it will ensure that they are able to provide all the performance and confidence inspiring feel that they should.  Although the stock setup isn't modern, it isn't bad either, it just needs a bit more understanding and attention to perform at its best.
-Dave Voss
(past) '78 CB550K4
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Offline flybox1

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Re: Show and describe your brake system upgrades for 550/750 K bikes.
« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2013, 09:11:50 AM »
@Dave Voss
I just recently upgraded my K8 to dual front rotors and got a crash course in all you just explained.
Nice work  ;D

Mods. I  think this should go into the FAQ's/Brakes section.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Show and describe your brake system upgrades for 550/750 K bikes.
« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2013, 04:33:28 PM »
The modern bike comparison won't add up anyway. Most modern bikes with good brakes have far superior forks and frames, you put gsxr1000 brakes on your 40 year old bike and expect it to brake like a gixxer and you would be wrong, fork and frame flex should be taken into account, in saying that, the modern upgrades are better than stock, just don't all of a sudden expect your old bike to be a modern one.... ;)  {yes, i've had plenty of both}

Have you ridden an old bike with modern bike brakes?, not just dual CB brakes. There is a huge difference. You are stopping a spinning wheel, frame and fork don't matter unless it's a track bike.

Thats ok but thats just your opinion, and it looks like you didn't understand what i was saying, of course it will brake better but it will also overwhelm the frame and forks under heavy braking, i know this from my own experiences. The stock frame and forks resemble spaghetti, thats why i have my frames braced and use better front ends. I have 3 750's being built in varying stages, one has Cerrianni forks and the other 2 have 43mm GSXR1100 forks and brakes, so yes, i have some knowledge of what i am talking about.....
I brake on the street  as hard as some guys racing , always have.... 8) ;D
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 09:23:39 PM by Retro Rocket »
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Offline Dave Voss

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Re: Show and describe your brake system upgrades for 550/750 K bikes.
« Reply #34 on: May 17, 2013, 08:36:39 PM »
@Dave Voss
I just recently upgraded my K8 to dual front rotors and got a crash course in all you just explained.
Nice work  ;D

Mods. I  think this should go into the FAQ's/Brakes section.

Thanks for the compliment!  I enjoy the process of learning not only how things work, but also why things work the way they do, and this forum is a great place to share.
-Dave Voss
(past) '78 CB550K4
(past) '75 CB550K1
(now) '95 R1100RSL

Offline Whaleman

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Re: Show and describe your brake system upgrades for 550/750 K bikes.
« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2013, 06:19:28 AM »
I had more play in my caliper arms than I wanted also. I machined out the caliper holder and caliper arm holes to a little bit larger size and machined a stainless pin from a high quality stainless bolt to fit just right. It took all the play out. Dan

Offline Sixgunsrattlesnake

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Re: Show and describe your brake system upgrades for 550/750 K bikes.
« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2013, 07:39:22 AM »
I replaced my stock MC with one from a 660 Raptor on my K8.
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Offline Hummel

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Re: Show and describe your brake system upgrades for 550/750 K bikes.
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2013, 04:55:08 PM »
Seth: what Would you like to know ? My english is not super so i can't write a long explain about it.


Offline sethdhawkins

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Re: Show and describe your brake system upgrades for 550/750 K bikes.
« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2013, 11:13:12 AM »
No worries. I was just wondering about axle spacing/which axle with that setup?
All a man needs in this world is someone to love, if you can't give him that, give him hope, if you can't give him hope...just give him something to do!

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Offline bwaller

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Re: Show and describe your brake system upgrades for 550/750 K bikes.
« Reply #39 on: May 19, 2013, 06:41:12 PM »
My wifes 78 550, 15mm master, 4.5mm Suzuki rotors. My 570 racebike with Brembo F05's, 12mm Brembo master, 750F3 forks and 4.5mm lightened stock rotors..





Offline Hummel

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Re: Show and describe your brake system upgrades for 550/750 K bikes.
« Reply #40 on: May 20, 2013, 12:15:56 PM »
Axel is from my cb750 fits in the cb900 fork. There is a bit spacing with the calibers to get the Them in line with the disks.


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Offline jtran000

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Re: Show and describe your brake system upgrades for 550/750 K bikes.
« Reply #41 on: May 20, 2013, 04:35:08 PM »
ahhh, so much info to absorb and only one brain!

Offline 70CB750

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Re: Show and describe your brake system upgrades for 550/750 K bikes.
« Reply #42 on: May 21, 2013, 06:45:04 AM »
Here is the thread I was talking about:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=89771.0