Topic: Drugs in the USA

[Bob Wessner]

Bob, This is really about Economics - not Politics. I hope.

Very complex subject and economics certianly comes into play. There's much that can be discussed as long as we stay away from attempts to assign fault or suggest specific political ownership of "fixes."

[70CB750]

rr, you dont get it, but thts not entirely your fault. You would have to experience it to understand.

Oh i get it my friend , i get it completely......, like you said, maybe you should come here and experience it in my country to see the alternative, not perfect but far better....

No you dont.  Or did you live in communist run country where everything including health care was government job and over the forty years the healthcare deteriorated to quite the danger?  And the word government is key here, it slowly but surely makes red tape go up and quality down. When even doctors and nurses are employed by the government?  Is it what Australia looks like?

[Retro Rocket]

rr, you dont get it, but thts not entirely your fault. You would have to experience it to understand.

Oh i get it my friend , i get it completely......, like you said, maybe you should come here and experience it in my country to see the alternative, not perfect but far better....

No you dont.  Or did you live in communist run country where everything including health care was government job and over the forty years the healthcare deteriorated to quite the danger?  And the word government is key here, it slowly but surely makes red tape go up and quality down. When even doctors and nurses are employed by the government?  Is it what Australia looks like?

Mate, we are talking about the USA here, not some 3rd world communist death trap, lets see if we can keep this on track with sensible comparisons.... 

[Goofaroo]

If you go to Wiki, the WHO (World Health Organization) has a list of life expectancy by country. As of 2011, the US ranks 37th.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

Meanwhile, we spend almost twice as much per capita annually on healthcare than most other developed countries..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_%28PPP%29_per_capita

It would be interesting to hear from some of the forum members in these other countries how they feel about the service they receive from their national health plans. Considering that you are spending roughly half as much and living longer, it looks to me like the way to go but maybe I'm missing something.

Do tell.

[BeSeeingYou]

I'm amazed that some people are more offended by a poor person mooching pennies out of the system but it is perfectly cool for rich people to suck billions out of it.

However, the top 5% paid over 59% of the income tax, the next 45% paid 38%, and the bottom 50% paid less than 3% in income taxes. The top 50% already choke up 97% of the load!

What's fair?

Your figures actually mirror the wealth held be each group.  The top 5% own 60% of the wealth so it seems fair that they pay 60% of the tax.  Wouldn't you say that is a pretty fair deal?   The other thing that often skews the equation is many of these studies where you can finds all these facts and figures do not include payroll tax as income tax.  Since most low and middle income folks have a wage paying job where they pay payroll tax it skews the numbers to make it look like the rich pay more and the low and middle income class pay less. 

The really troubling aspect is how through their political proxies the wealthy have used divisive social issues to get a part of the middle class shooting themselves in the financial foot defending the wealthy against paying their fair share.  Often they pay a lower rate than the guy making $20 an hour.  Remember how Mitt's effective tax rate was 14%.  Better to get folks to worry about some poor (i.e. not white) guy getting something they don't deserve than to see how the 1%ers are ripping you off.

[w1sa]

Ive looked at some (US Budget) numbers from various sources and formats for the last few years, together with some income and tax analyses for recent times.

It appears true that the top percentage of (US)income earners do pay a higher (group) contribution of overall income tax collected.....the higher the percentile, the higher the group contribution.

What is also interesting, is the view given... when the total effective (personal/family) federal taxes collected is/are applied to the same percentiles.
These (Avg.) figures for 2011...Source... 'Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy'(2012)

Low  20%  Inc       13,000    Effective Tax Rate 17.4%
Next 20%  Inc      24,100                                 21.2%
Next 20%  Inc      42,000                                 25.2%
Next 20%  Inc      48,700                                 28.3%
Next 10%  Inc    105,000                                 29.5%
Next   5%  Inc    143,000                                 30.3%
Next   4%  Inc    254,000                                 30.4%
Top    1%  Inc  1,371,000                                29.0%

So, (from these figures).......it appears that the lower income earners are infact shouldering a reasonable level of 'tax' burden when compared to any other percentile..that is, unless you consider less than $11k as opposed to $973k (both after tax) as, too generous to the lower income earner.

Another source (National Bureau of Economic Research) has stated that 'most' workers are paying combined (Federal/State and Local) taxes of approx. 40% of earned wages/income.

Much of what is released in official gov budget statements (not just US), is 'smoke and mirrors'...but they still can't avoid the macro numbers and the resulting view of spending that can be formed.

Here's my (first cut) view of some spending in the US and AUS (both 2011)...expressed as percentage of Federal Gov Expenditure.

Soc.Sec/Vets/Welfare/Disability........US 40%,,,,,,,,,,,AUS 33%
Medicare/Medicaid/Other Med...........US 21%,,,,,,,,,,,AUS 16%
Defense/Military............................US 19%,,,,,,,,,,, AUS  6%

I think there is a strong relationship between the extremely wealthy income earners and  the government/institutional sources that they (the most wealthy) derive much income from.
In the case of Health spending we each spend heavily in the private med insurance schemes  (as individuals).....but US contributors apparently pay much higher premiums for comparative care.

Even in the absence of deep critical analysis and social assessment, it is not far fetched to say that financial interest groups/wealthier investors are depriving 'most' working people of a greater level of health care ....the care is limited by fed budget allocations/affordabilty (in the first place) and additionally limited by the cost of private insurance, as a % of income for the majority of families....

By the exhorbitant charging of products and services and the institutional protection they receive, they reduce the amount of health care $$$s available, for every individual deserving of proper and appropriate Health care.

 

[70CB750]

rr, you dont get it, but thts not entirely your fault. You would have to experience it to understand.

Oh i get it my friend , i get it completely......, like you said, maybe you should come here and experience it in my country to see the alternative, not perfect but far better....

No you dont.  Or did you live in communist run country where everything including health care was government job and over the forty years the healthcare deteriorated to quite the danger?  And the word government is key here, it slowly but surely makes red tape go up and quality down. When even doctors and nurses are employed by the government?  Is it what Australia looks like?

Mate, we are talking about the USA here, not some 3rd world communist death trap, lets see if we can keep this on track with sensible comparisons.... 

Well, the 3rd world death trap - that's where you are headed, don't kid yourself that it is gonna be any different in not so distant future.   

And how come it is always some smart a$$ from Australia that understands USA the best?

[Retro Rocket]

rr, you dont get it, but thts not entirely your fault. You would have to experience it to understand.

Oh i get it my friend , i get it completely......, like you said, maybe you should come here and experience it in my country to see the alternative, not perfect but far better....

No you dont.  Or did you live in communist run country where everything including health care was government job and over the forty years the healthcare deteriorated to quite the danger?  And the word government is key here, it slowly but surely makes red tape go up and quality down. When even doctors and nurses are employed by the government?  Is it what Australia looks like?

Mate, we are talking about the USA here, not some 3rd world communist death trap, lets see if we can keep this on track with sensible comparisons.... 

Well, the 3rd world death trap - that's where you are headed, don't kid yourself that it is gonna be any different in not so distant future.   

And how come it is always some smart a$$ from Australia that understands USA the best?

At least you are consistent mate, i'll give you that much....     Australia will NEVER be like the USA or your communist regime, EVER.... You obviously no nothing about Australia..... Better luck next time....

[70CB750]

If you were closer I would ask you to step outside with me.  Nobody calls my country 3 world death trap!

I hope one day I can punch your nose - and I am serious.

[Retro Rocket]

If you were closer I would ask you to step outside with me.  Nobody calls my country 3 world death trap!

I hope one day I can punch your nose - and I am serious.

Now let me see, wasn't it you that said the worst thing that happened to you which nearly killed you was in your communist regime's hospital, you blindly defend the USA, now you going off half cocked about somewhere else, that you brought into the thread for no other reason but to discredit what i was saying, bad luck buddy, your lame threat is laughable.... you are amusing though...

And just so you understand clearly, the communist death trap was in reference to your public hospital mate....

[70CB750]

Just go back and read it again.  I never defended USA in this thread.   My experience is with govt run healthcare and I know enough about it to know that it is not a good thing.  Unfortunatelly that's where the USA is headed with the current health reform.

There was no reason for you to attack my country calling it 3rd world and as I said, I owe you one.

[Retro Rocket]

I'll type slow just for you mate, We were all talking about health care, YOU compared your near death experience in a COMMUNIST Hospital, {3rd world death trap}..

You Said
 

I lived in a system of government managed healthcare and it almost killed me!   I did stupid things in my life and what not and my closest call was due to doctor's negligance in government operated health care.

and

No you dont.  Or did you live in communist run country where everything including health care was government job and over the forty years the healthcare deteriorated to quite the danger?

So you brought both the communist and the death trap i refereed to { hospital}  into the conversation, which by the way, has absolutely nothing in common with our hospital system because we are not COMMUNIST for a start....So i think your petty threat is a joke and it doesn't worry me one little bit, but i bet the mods will think otherwise. Maybe you should read things properly before going off half cocked...Get over it....

[74cb750]

Never made it to Montréal this weekend for Hopefully cheaper drugs.
The soccer games I refereed ran longer than expected and I was beat
running on the pitch for 4-5 hours after driving 3 hours to the games.

Took $ out of the future taxes fund and hope to replenish it before taxes come due
to pay for drugs here in Vermont.

Will try to make it to Montréal in a few weeks, after I have more info on the
mechanics of obtaining cheaper drugs, and have been able to talk to my doctor
to see what he says.

peace,
michel

[70CB750]

I'll type slow just for you mate, We were all talking about health care, YOU compared your near death experience in a COMMUNIST Hospital, {3rd world death trap}..

You Said
 

I lived in a system of government managed healthcare and it almost killed me!   I did stupid things in my life and what not and my closest call was due to doctor's negligance in government operated health care.

and

No you dont.  Or did you live in communist run country where everything including health care was government job and over the forty years the healthcare deteriorated to quite the danger?

So you brought both the communist and the death trap i refereed to { hospital}  into the conversation, which by the way, has absolutely nothing in common with our hospital system because we are not COMMUNIST for a start....So i think your petty threat is a joke and it doesn't worry me one little bit, but i bet the mods will think otherwise. Maybe you should read things properly before going off half cocked...Get over it....

OK, so if you can read properly, where exactly did I defend USA in this thread?  And you bash my country and don't even have the balls to admit it?  Quite the man, aren't you?

Communism is the ultimate governmant control, even if you may not be living in a communistic country, there are lessons to learn from history where the government took the whole control over everything.  It leads to bad ends. because it destroys competition, concentrates control in the hand of few people, leads to corruption and overall unlimited power attracts people with character flaws.

To get to that stage takes baby steps, one cut at a time but it get's you there alright.  Do you think the Germans would believe you in 1930 if you told them what's ahead?   Or Russians in 1917?  Or any other country that failed in that trap?

[motocyconomad]

all you need to have a joint. 

[Xnavylfr]

The GOV'T run hospitals and what we call COUNTY hospitals is NOT so much worse than any other , it's just the fact that THESE hospitals are left on their own and are REQUIRED to treat the more infectious diseases from a populace that is less fortunate (SOME BY CHOICE)   Most of these diseases comes from the lifestyle (DRUGS/PROSTITUTION/AIDS/MRSA) and some of these disease germs remain present plus the fact the overall cost is cheaper at COUNTY hospitals. If you are taken to a COUNTY hospital you run a chance of getting a disease just by being there.

Xnavylfr(CHUCK)

[70CB750]

There is actually way to research hospitals before you go there:

http://www.medicare.gov/hospitalcompare/?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

with rating and feedback and all that jazz.

[74cb750]

There is actually way to research hospitals before you go there:

http://www.medicare.gov/hospitalcompare/?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1



with rating and feedback and all that jazz.

Thanks, nice link for info.
I will probably rely on my brother's advice as he 's lived there pretty much his whole life.
peace,
michel

[70CB750]

Always the best to use the personnal network.

The only reason I know that link is because I work for a CMS contractor - public hospital reporting (aka that web page) was one of our projects.

[70CB750]

Healthcare system is not perfect in any country in the world.  That's why everybody is trying to reform it/improve it/adjust it.  It is just the nature of the beast. b/c the healthy people pay for those who are sick now and in turn will eventually expect support themselves.  I know Germany had some rough time after East Germany joined in. Czech Republic is reforming since the fall of communism - I have quite few MDs in the family and they fill my ear every time I dumb enough to ask

The cost in USA is quite high and one of the reasons is the law and lawyers.  Many, maybe majority doctors have several lawsuits going against them all the time and for this, they pay extensive insurance, because it seems that everybody and his brother thinks they can get rich from grandpa who died in hospital.

I was in a jury for malpractice, this older gentleman died one week after knee surgery and the widow sued the anesthesiologist for a big sum of money.  It got thrown out, she did not have a case, but for US doctors, the insurance is necessity and in the final turn it is paid by sick people.

Of course nobody will go after the lawyers, most of politicians are lawyers, even Obama is a lawyer - he turned the license in from what I know. 

Back to the original topic - healthcare reform is needed. personally I miss the opportunity to buy decent health care insurance as a single person or family.  It depends on the negotiating power of the subject how good health care insurance you can get and of course bigger corporation has bigger leverage for that.

Over in Czech Republic, you have to pay your health insurance  no matter what, if you are unemployed, the government will pay it for you.  But that insurance is the same as everybody else, and the senate will not try to wiggle out of it because it is too expensive - such as US Senate.

Bottom line, health care reform in US is necessary, just like (almost) everywhere else.  Unfortunately, the current administration is likely the most corrupted and mafia like in the last 80 - 100 years of the history of USA.  That means that not much good will come out of it.  Just that the apparently corrupted and profiling IRS is in charge of healthcare is very disturbing.

OK, off my soap box now.

[Retro Rocket]

Ok i understand everything now, its all a communist plot....    Your a class act 70....

[JeffSTL]

The cost in USA is quite high and one of the reasons is the law and lawyers.  Many, maybe majority doctors have several lawsuits going against them all the time and for this, they pay extensive insurance, because it seems that everybody and his brother thinks they can get rich from grandpa who died in hospital.

I was in a jury for malpractice, this older gentleman died one week after knee surgery and the widow sued the anesthesiologist for a big sum of money.  It got thrown out, she did not have a case, but for US doctors, the insurance is necessity and in the final turn it is paid by sick people

Not accurate.  Malpractice payouts represent less than 1 percent of our healthcare expenditures.  48 of the 50 states have already passed tort reform laws. I think Illinois and hawaii beeing the exceptions. In example, my state of Missouri limits liabilities to $250,000. Laws that were pushed for (and paid for) by insurance companies.

Doctor's high malpractice insurance costs are no different than the high costs of insurance for us. It is simply insurance companies ripping us off.  They can do this because there is no competition because you can't purchase across state lines and I would argue there is actually collusion between the insurance companies to keep premiums high.

[demon78]

OK I'll chime in again my personal preference is for every one to pay if you're rich tuff #$%*, everyone pays because everyone pays for the military, monetary system, police, transportation, judicial system etc, drugs should be payed for to because obviously the private sector hasn't done a good job so a higher authority should take over and if there is corrupt officials they should have their genitalia sewn to their forheads (retribution like an angry god coming after a #$%* up priest/medicineman) as a citizen of your country you are expected to do certain things, I could do a list, but roughly you are expected to pay for government, support the government ( IE the people) help run the government ( vote, stop poorly run government etc) try to advance, (educate yourself) and to die for your country if necessary, now I'm getting into my cups seeing as how it's been a hectic weekend so I haven't dotted all the I's crossed all the T's but you are all bright lads so you know what I mean. If the special interest  groups (rich, poor, left, right, polka dotted whatever the #$%*) can't cope then they should consider moving and let the interested citizens get on with it and it should be trotted out in terms that anyone can understand, as I get closer to dying I get more pissed off that a lot of the idiots don't get it ( but I know that sohc people are in the top end of the strata and understand, they may disagree but they have intelligence and a willingness to try so they are not the problem) but idiots on the whole are ass holes and should go to ass hole land. Now just in case you think that I'm targeting the States I'm not my country is just as bad and from my reading of OZ politics it's the same, so's "Blighty".
Bill the demon.

[JeffSTL]

Btw, I'm so glad we are going to fix this issue right here on the forum:). It's about 18% of our GDP going down the drain.

[70CB750]

The cost in USA is quite high and one of the reasons is the law and lawyers.  Many, maybe majority doctors have several lawsuits going against them all the time and for this, they pay extensive insurance, because it seems that everybody and his brother thinks they can get rich from grandpa who died in hospital.

I was in a jury for malpractice, this older gentleman died one week after knee surgery and the widow sued the anesthesiologist for a big sum of money.  It got thrown out, she did not have a case, but for US doctors, the insurance is necessity and in the final turn it is paid by sick people

Not accurate.  Malpractice payouts represent less than 1 percent of our healthcare expenditures.  48 of the 50 states have already passed tort reform laws. I think Illinois and hawaii beeing the exceptions. In example, my state of Missouri limits liabilities to $250,000. Laws that were pushed for (and paid for) by insurance companies.

Doctor's high malpractice insurance costs are no different than the high costs of insurance for us. It is simply insurance companies ripping us off.  They can do this because there is no competition because you can't purchase across state lines and I would argue there is actually collusion between the insurance companies to keep premiums high.

I stand corrected, did not know that - but I stated it as one of the reasons.

And you can just wait till the insurance companies get ahold of your DNA data and they can adjust your premium based on your predisposition. 

I said it before - USA is owned by insurance companies.