Author Topic: Engine jumps right to 7k and holds when started  (Read 2391 times)

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Offline GrandRapids750K3

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Engine jumps right to 7k and holds when started
« on: May 11, 2013, 01:45:56 PM »
After several weeks of exhaust, carb, and air box work I finally have everything on my 73 750K put together. I fired it up for the first time and it jumps right to 7K and holds. Despite this fact I'm still pretty happy just that it started.

Suggestion on what to do? The throttle seems a little firm from what I had before, but as far as I can tell the carbs are all the way down when the throttle is nuetral. Carbs were recently completly rebuild by a member, and I'm no expert, so any advice to get thing running  at correct idle would be awesome. Attached is a picture of the carbs at rest... Let me know if you need any other pictures...


Offline Eydugstr

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Re: Engine jumps right to 7k and holds when started
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2013, 03:13:44 PM »
If the carbs were recently rebuilt, first thing I'd check is the idle screw (one screw that adjusts the throttle control bar).  Try turning it down two half turns, then see if there's any difference in RPM's.  Might be a case of just being turned in too far during the rebuild.

The other thing I'd check is the throttle cables and make sure they're not routed incorrectly or binding in any way.

Offline GrandRapids750K3

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Re: Engine jumps right to 7k and holds when started
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2013, 04:33:50 PM »
So this might be a dumb question.... But is the choke on when the choke lever is lifted up or folded down?

Went out to fire it up again, and when the lever is lifted all the way it idles nicely at about 1500... Start to lowere it and the rpms take off. I had always assume that lever up was choke on, but again, this is my first experience with the correct carbs....

Offline matt mattison

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Re: Engine jumps right to 7k and holds when started
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2013, 05:15:54 PM »
If your idle screw, not the air mixture screw, has no effect I would think the throttle valves are set too high.
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Offline ekpent

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Re: Engine jumps right to 7k and holds when started
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2013, 08:20:44 PM »
Lever up is choke on,lever down is off. There is a large knurled edged screw head that adjusts the idle. Give us another shot of your carb with the rubber boot lifted so we can see how many threads are showing, or check, on top of the large vacuum adjusting nut and  locknut. Similar thread recently.  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=120120.0
« Last Edit: May 11, 2013, 08:29:54 PM by ekpent »

Offline Eydugstr

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Re: Engine jumps right to 7k and holds when started
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2013, 07:18:56 AM »
So this might be a dumb question.... But is the choke on when the choke lever is lifted up or folded down?

Went out to fire it up again, and when the lever is lifted all the way it idles nicely at about 1500... Start to lowere it and the rpms take off. I had always assume that lever up was choke on, but again, this is my first experience with the correct carbs....

+1 to what ekpent said.  Another question - how long did you run it with the choke on?  Did it start to bog down or run faster after you ran it for awhile with the choke on (lever in the "up" position)?

Offline lucky

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Re: Engine jumps right to 7k and holds when started
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2013, 09:01:05 AM »
Jumps right to 7,000!!!

Better turn it off quickly.


Throttle cable stuck.
Slides stuck in carb bore.
Massive air leak in carb boots.

Offline andy750

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Re: Engine jumps right to 7k and holds when started
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2013, 11:36:41 AM »
Massive air leak in carb boots.

Looking at how your last photo of your carb/airbox setup it still dosent look right - to test if its an air leak (which would be consistent with it running better when choke lever is up) spray some WD-40 around the carb/rubbers and see if RPM changes - it shouldnt if no air leak!

good luck
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Offline GrandRapids750K3

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Re: Engine jumps right to 7k and holds when started
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2013, 08:00:10 AM »
Thanks again everyone for the advice. Now that mother's day has come and gone I good a day off of work to get back to the bike.

I initially had problems getting it started. The electiric start would begin to work, and then sound like it hit a wall. The kick start was also frozne in place... Freaked me out to say the least. I think I killed the started now, all I get is a click... But the good news is that after kicking the the stuck kick start it freed up and the bike roared to life.

I took the advice and hit all the carb boots with wd-40, and no change. Then I adjusted the idle screw and that did the trick. The bike now holds at about 1500 with the choke lever down. Success?

I let it run for a solid ten min, and the thing smoked pretty good. Not like it was going to smoke me out of the garage, but there is a constant stream of smoke rising off the carb/airbox area, perhaps a little from from the battery box area. I assume this is just the bike finally being warm and burning off all the aero krill, wd, and spilled gas? Doesn't smell like a burning smell, and I can't see anything that is touching engine. Any thoughts?

Any more concerning to me is that froze up starter and kick starter. Is this a sign of things to come? Should I be doing something to help fix this? Once it freed up I was able to give it several kicks and get it started now problem. I check the oild and that is fine. On the electric start, did I likely fry the starter solenoid? It is original to the bike...

Thanks again to everyone for the advice. Once I get these other questions answered I can get the seat on take a ride... Then off to honda for a vacume sinc and new tires!

I can't figure out how to post a video, so if someone can help out, I'll post a video of it up and running....


Offline iron_worker

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Re: Engine jumps right to 7k and holds when started
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2013, 08:05:21 AM »
There is vent line that connects between the rear of the crankcase to the oil tank ... is yours hooked up?

IW

Offline GrandRapids750K3

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Re: Engine jumps right to 7k and holds when started
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2013, 08:17:44 AM »
IW, Could you be a bit more specific? All I see are the two main oil lines, one on the bottom and one that comes out the front.

Two more interesting things taht just came up. When for a ride down teh street and back. When I started it, I thought I would check the choce to see what happens... Once I lift it up, it kills the bike. I am correct to say it should rev higher when choke is lifted?

Also, I appear to have had some gas leaking out of the seam between top and bottom of my air box...

Damn it felt good to ride it again though....

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Engine jumps right to 7k and holds when started
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2013, 08:25:11 AM »
#7 in this schematic:

http://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cb750-four-k3-usa_model481/partslist/F++14.html#results

It is a vent line that should run from the back of the transmission... there is a hose barb sticking out just above where the swingarm is in the middle/rear of the case. Is it hooked up?


And ... the choke should only be used to start the bike when it's cold. After it's warmed up for 30sec or so you shouldn't need it.

If you have gas leaking out of your airbox then you have sticking floats or your float needles aren't sealing ... that and your carb overflows obviously aren't working either... probably plugged. Sounds like you need to go through your carbs again...
IW

Offline GrandRapids750K3

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Re: Engine jumps right to 7k and holds when started
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2013, 08:38:09 AM »
Found the line. and everything is all hooked up. Just needed to get down at a different angle.

Bummed about the carbs, it was so much work to get them put on. How much of diagnosing, fixing am I able to do with them on the bike. I would imagine the overflows would not be difficult. I'm very green when it comes to carbs, that is why I had them sent out to be rebuild.

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Engine jumps right to 7k and holds when started
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2013, 09:05:07 AM »
You can diagnose and fix float / needle problems with the carbs on the bike. The same goes for overflows. It is of course trickier to do since access is not as good.

Pull the float bowls and have a look at the overflow tubes (brass standpipe right in the middle of the bowl). If you take the overflow line off you should be able to see light through the tiny hole in the top... if not, clean them out with a small piece of wire or other.

The floats come off by ever so gently sliding the hinge pin out. The needle is held between the seat and the arm of the float and should come out when the float drops out. You can then get the seat out by using a socket ... CAREFULLY! If the socket has too wide of a wall thickness or you get it jammed in there sideways you will probably break the float post off...then you're in real trouble!

Once you get the seat out examine the mating faces of the seat and the float needle. Some are just metal on metal and some have a rubber tipped float. Check carefully for any debris in there or any wear at all. If they weren't replaced before then it would be a good idea to do it now. If they were replaced recently then a thorough cleaning should suffice.

Carefully put everything back together ... now you have to attempt to set your float height upside down... this will be tough. The float height for 750s of this vintage is 26mm ... at least my K4 is. Someone can probably confirm that. You'd probably be wise to make yourself a float height tool out of an old credit card as is described on this board. Search.

If you've gone this far it might be nice to pull your pilot jets out. Long skinny brass jets. They should just thread out with a flathead screwdriver ... you'll probably need a stubby to get in there. As with the overflow tubes you'll need to check that you can see light through from end to end and through all the emulsion holes that go through from side to side. Clean all these passages with a piece of wire as well. Make sure they are 100% free and clear.

Personally I would probably just take the carbs off to do all this. You may end up fighting with it more because of the access issues ... but ultimately it's up to you.

Why don't you let the guy that rebuilt your carbs know that you're having trouble?

IW

Offline Elan

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Re: Engine jumps right to 7k and holds when started
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2013, 09:14:15 AM »
.....
I let it run for a solid ten min, and the thing smoked pretty good. ...



Did you have a fan blowing the engine? these are air cooled so at standstill in your garage, you need to replace the wind with a fan.
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Offline Eydugstr

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Re: Engine jumps right to 7k and holds when started
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2013, 12:11:59 PM »
Found the line. and everything is all hooked up. Just needed to get down at a different angle.

Bummed about the carbs, it was so much work to get them put on. How much of diagnosing, fixing am I able to do with them on the bike. I would imagine the overflows would not be difficult. I'm very green when it comes to carbs, that is why I had them sent out to be rebuild.

Don't get too discouraged.  You've been making a lot of progress and if you keep going through the process of just finding the problem & fixing it you'll have a bike that's very rideable and worth $$'s in the end.

+1 to what Iron worker said.  If you're needing a float height gauge, Joker machine sells a really nice one, http://jokermachine.com/products/cafe-racer/honda-cb750-parts/cb750-carb-float-level-setting-gauge.html and vintageCB750 sells a cheaper one for about $11 http://www.vintagecb750.com/products/9/tools

To me it sounds like one of the carb float needles isn't seating.  Might just be a small piece of gunk from the tank or airbox.  Here's what I'd recommend, try to isolate which carb(s) are the guilty culprit.  Attach some clear tubes to the overflow outlets on the bottoms of the carb bowls.  Run the other ends of the tubes back into a gas can.  Turn the tap on, if one begins to leak, follow that tube back to it's respective carb.  Turn off the fuel tap, remove the fuel bowl of the guilty carb.  Get ready for some fuel to spill out!

Once the fuel bowl is off, check to see if the float is swinging freely on it's hinge.  Should be nice and loose.  If the float is nice and loose, go ahead and remove the float by pushing the float pin out of the way.  The float needle should fall out, might not hurt to have a rag underneath to catch it.  Once the float is out of the way, you should be able to unscrew the seat, I use a 10mm deep socket with a 1/4" drive, which is small enough to where it won't come close to damaging the float posts, like Iron worker pointed out.

Once you get the seat out, take a look inside at the seat, and at the needle.  If you see a groove wore into the seat, or on the tip of the needle, I'd go ahead and replace them both (needle & seats are available separately and are not that expensive.).  Chances are it's a bit of dirt that'll be in the seat, just blow it out with a little carb cleaner, reassemble, get the float & bowl back on (yes getting the needle to stay in place while trying to get the get the float pin back in, will take some patience).  Once everything's back together go ahead and turn the fuel tap on and double check everything again.  If the floats are set correctly and the needle & seats are clear, shouldn't have any overflow.

Offline GrandRapids750K3

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Re: Engine jumps right to 7k and holds when started
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2013, 02:22:09 PM »
So I think it some of the overflow I was expereinceing was from when I was trying to get things started, and probably flooded it. Took the bottom of the air box off and cleaned out the little bit of gas that was in there. Little bit of gas came out of the number one over flow when I tipped it upright.

Since then, not issues. Fuel is on, doesn't look like I'm having any issues. Have a papertowel under the carbs to see if I get anymore drips. I'll take it for a ride soon and see if I have any other issues....

Offline Elan

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Re: Engine jumps right to 7k and holds when started
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2013, 02:24:21 PM »
So I think it some of the overflow I was expereinceing was from when I was trying to get things started, and probably flooded it. Took the bottom of the air box off and cleaned out the little bit of gas that was in there. Little bit of gas came out of the number one over flow when I tipped it upright.

Since then, not issues. Fuel is on, doesn't look like I'm having any issues. Have a papertowel under the carbs to see if I get anymore drips. I'll take it for a ride soon and see if I have any other issues....

Good to hear!
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Offline ekpent

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Re: Engine jumps right to 7k and holds when started
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2013, 05:27:48 PM »
I have been following your progress also. I saw your bike when it was originally for sale up in Grant Mi a couple of years ago and took a pass. Then you bought it from the flipper in Shelbyville. You have been working hard on it and I also hope for success for you. Good luck from a Guy down the road in Kazoo.

Offline GrandRapids750K3

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Re: Engine jumps right to 7k and holds when started
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2013, 06:03:34 PM »
Thanks for the encouraging words. No doubt that this process has been beyond stressful at times, but I'm glad I didn't throw in the towel. As much as I enjoy working on the bike, my real passion is riding; so when it's out of commission I'm beyond frustrated. My hope is that one is tires and brakes away from just being able to ride for a few years. Once I get the new rear wheel on the bike should be original, with exception of the exhaust.

I got another 73 roller sitting in the corner of the garage, so hopefully the stock bike will be reliable enough for me to start throwing some time, money, and energy at a cafe build. Might take me 10 years, but I'm pretty damn excited.

I'm going to start a new build thread for this bike soon to capture everything that's been done so far. Many thanks to everyone who has walked me through the process.

Here's the most recent picture of everything put back together, minus the overflow lines, which will go on after the vacuum sync from the shop...


Offline lucky

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Re: Engine jumps right to 7k and holds when started
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2013, 09:00:54 AM »
Thanks again everyone for the advice. Now that mother's day has come and gone I good a day off of work to get back to the bike.

I initially had problems getting it started. The electiric start would begin to work, and then sound like it hit a wall. The kick start was also frozne in place... Freaked me out to say the least. I think I killed the started now, all I get is a click... But the good news is that after kicking the the stuck kick start it freed up and the bike roared to life.

I took the advice and hit all the carb boots with wd-40, and no change. Then I adjusted the idle screw and that did the trick. The bike now holds at about 1500 with the choke lever down. Success?

I let it run for a solid ten min, and the thing smoked pretty good. Not like it was going to smoke me out of the garage, but there is a constant stream of smoke rising off the carb/airbox area, perhaps a little from from the battery box area. I assume this is just the bike finally being warm and burning off all the aero krill, wd, and spilled gas? Doesn't smell like a burning smell, and I can't see anything that is touching engine. Any thoughts?

Any more concerning to me is that froze up starter and kick starter. Is this a sign of things to come? Should I be doing something to help fix this? Once it freed up I was able to give it several kicks and get it started now problem. I check the oild and that is fine. On the electric start, did I likely fry the starter solenoid? It is original to the bike...

Thanks again to everyone for the advice. Once I get these other questions answered I can get the seat on take a ride... Then off to honda for a vacume sinc and new tires!

I can't figure out how to post a video, so if someone can help out, I'll post a video of it up and running....

All that smoke from the carb area was all that WD40 you sprayed on, burning up! LOL..lol

Offline GrandRapids750K3

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Re: Engine jumps right to 7k and holds when started
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2013, 04:49:21 PM »
WD40, Aero Kroil, spilled gas, oil, sweat, tears.... plenty of things to smoke up the place....

Offline GrandRapids750K3

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Re: Engine jumps right to 7k and holds when started
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2013, 05:22:39 PM »
Looks like my optimism was short lived. Looks like I'm leaking out of at least 3 out of 4 carb overflows... Guess I can hold of on those insurance quotes a little longer....

Offline Eydugstr

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Re: Engine jumps right to 7k and holds when started
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2013, 05:28:49 AM »
Looks like my optimism was short lived. Looks like I'm leaking out of at least 3 out of 4 carb overflows... Guess I can hold of on those insurance quotes a little longer....

Don't give up! Go back to what both Iron Worker & I posted earlier about dirt getting into the needle & seats.  The bike idling steady at 1500 is a positive sign.

Before you fire it up again, after you've checked the needle and seats, what kind of condition is your gas tank in?  No dirt or crud floating around that's getting into the carbs?  Have you had the fuel tap off, if so, what condition is the strainer in?  The crud getting into the carbs is coming from somewhere.