Author Topic: Gapping the points affecting the timing  (Read 1344 times)

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Offline zipper

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Gapping the points affecting the timing
« on: September 20, 2013, 12:36:48 PM »
Hi all,

I've been adjusting the ignition on my CB500 to have it perfectly tuned, using a dwell meter and a strobe light.

I gap the points at the right specs, then i move to fixing the timing plate. The last one proves to be quite difficult since it's almost way too advanced to have it adjusted correctly. To be more detailed, checking the timing it's a little too early (retarded?) and i need to turn the plate clockwise, the problem is that it finishes shortly before the F-mark.

It happened a few times when i gapped the points that i had plently of space to tweak the timing plate, but it happens sparodically.

Question:
Is there an easy way to gap the points so that i have plently of space on the timing plate for adjustments?



ps: TEC points are mounted on the bike
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 12:38:34 PM by zipper »

Offline Sprocket75

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Re: Gapping the points affecting the timing
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2013, 12:55:30 PM »
Just went through a grueling session of this last night.   :-[  TwoTired suggested using shims on the plate. Made a huge difference and gave me the "extra" adjustment room that I needed as well as tightening the tolerances. I owe him at least a steak dinner.
..."Always two there are, no more, no less. A master and an apprentice"... YODA

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Offline zipper

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Re: Gapping the points affecting the timing
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2013, 01:06:02 PM »
Thanks! So basically i should try to put a spacer ontop of the plate? (Doesn't it already have one stock?)

But i still don't get why sometimes i have plenty of space when i regap the points with the right specs, i suspect there's some trick i don't know about..  :)

ps: it's a little funny to hear that i'm not the only one having difficulties with that ;)

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Gapping the points affecting the timing
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2013, 01:18:49 PM »
Do check out the ignition FAQ.

The main points plate is sometimes made too small in diameter to fit tightly into the case bosses.  This allows the plate to move laterally while you are trying to rotate it.  Depending on point cam position, the springs on the points shove the whole plate sideways, which changes your gap setting on both sets of points.  Any change in gaps, also changes the timing.
 A shim(s) between plate and engine boss stops the lateral movement when rotating the plate for timing adjustments.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline Deltarider

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Re: Gapping the points affecting the timing
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2013, 01:36:08 PM »
Quote
Is there an easy way to gap the points so that i have plently of space on the timing plate for adjustments?
Depends. Read what TT wrote in the FAQ. You may have a plate that fits too loose.
I guess I'm lucky. Ever since I've set the dwell precisely in between 49o and 46o (genuine TEC contactbreakers), the result was the correct timing prooved to be exactly in the middle of it's adjusting range, as if Honda had ment this. But again, maybe I'm Lucky.
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Offline crazypj

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Re: Gapping the points affecting the timing
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2013, 02:40:17 PM »
I made a new back plate for my 550 when I fitted electronic ignition as the original was real slack (as was the points plate)
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Offline Sprocket75

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Re: Gapping the points affecting the timing
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2013, 03:51:04 PM »
Do check out the ignition FAQ.

The main points plate is sometimes made too small in diameter to fit tightly into the case bosses.  This allows the plate to move laterally while you are trying to rotate it.  Depending on point cam position, the springs on the points shove the whole plate sideways, which changes your gap setting on both sets of points.  Any change in gaps, also changes the timing.
 A shim(s) between plate and engine boss stops the lateral movement when rotating the plate for timing adjustments.

I've been thinking about this a lot today. Seems like a small, thin, rubber or polypropylene shim could be made to remedy this. Even a bit of Permatex at the edges? Maybe even a skinny piece of rigid wire (think Slinky) that would fill the gap?
..."Always two there are, no more, no less. A master and an apprentice"... YODA

1975 Honda CB550K

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Gapping the points affecting the timing
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2013, 04:55:50 PM »
There are many ways to make the plate fit properly.  I chose feeler gauges because they were already at hand.  And the shim is only needed during the setting process, as are the feeler gauges.

You could also peen the plate (mashing it thinner to grow in radial direction)...
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline zipper

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Re: Gapping the points affecting the timing
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2013, 04:59:39 AM »
You were all right, it turned out to be the plate being a little loose. I will see what i will use as shims for the sides. (I'm fixing it right now)

Offline zipper

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Re: Gapping the points affecting the timing
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2013, 06:05:40 AM »
Yay, i got it fixed!  :D :D :D
I didn't get to use the shims but it seems tightening the screws starting with the one that's at the right bottom did the trick. Earlier i used to start with the one that's on the top .

thanks everybody for the help ;D

PS: too bad this didn't fix the misfiring problem i'm having

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Re: Gapping the points affecting the timing
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2013, 06:06:01 AM »
There are many ways to make the plate fit properly.  I chose feeler gauges because they were already at hand.  And the shim is only needed during the setting process, as are the feeler gauges.

You could also peen the plate (mashing it thinner to grow in radial direction)...

Just trying to learn but I don't understand. How do you determine where to put the shim and I thought you would need to leave it in ?

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Gapping the points affecting the timing
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2013, 10:31:37 AM »
There are many ways to make the plate fit properly.  I chose feeler gauges because they were already at hand.  And the shim is only needed during the setting process, as are the feeler gauges.

You could also peen the plate (mashing it thinner to grow in radial direction)...

Just trying to learn but I don't understand. How do you determine where to put the shim and I thought you would need to leave it in ?

You need to leave the shim in during the gap adjustment and the 1:4 timing procedure.  Once the main plate is tightened down, you don't need it again until the main plate is once again loosened.

The main points plate fits within the engine case bosses and the engine case also registers the point cam position.  These are solid reference points.
The points rubbing block registers to the main point plate.  And each point set has a spring putting force between the rubbing block and the points plate.  If you move the main plate laterally by spring action(don't confuse this movement with rotational positioning), it changes the point gap while the rubbing block rests on the point cam.  The point cam alternates this spring action as the crankshaft turns.

By confining the main points plate, to register accurately with the engine mount bosses, the gap setting remains unchanged as the point cam rotates and the point spring action changes dominance from side to side.  The registration must then be held constant, while the plate is rotated to achieve proper point open timing.

I believe I usually put the shim at the bottom right engine mount boss.  However, the geometry may demand placement at the lower left, if the timing slots of either point set prevent hit their bounds before the proper timing adjustment. can be achieved.  Unfortunately, if you find out that the 2:3 set can't be adjusted, you must move the shim, and then start again from the beginning, adjusting gap of both, do 1:4 timing again, and then 2:3 timing.


If you happen to have a loose plate, you can sometimes see the whole plate move side to side while the engine runs at low speed.
Further, for ever thousandth that the plate is made undersize w.r.t. the engine bosses, that is the amount of variance that will be applied to each point gap as the points cam rotates 180 degree.  If the gap changes, the point opening timing changes as well.  I forget the timing degree difference each thousandth of gap setting change creates.  There would also be a cam profile relationship as well.  But, an understanding of this detail isn't needed to solve the gap and timing set issues.

This is so easy to show with an example machine in person.  Textual concepts don't always translate well, though.  Perhaps I should work up some pictures and drawings.  ...in my spare time.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline nccb

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Re: Gapping the points affecting the timing
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2013, 10:58:47 AM »
That would be great TT.  Being a visual creature and a man, I imagine most just need to see it.  Hell, the babe thread is a good example 8)