Author Topic: CB550 runs like crap when it gets hot - UPDATE: Fuel issue  (Read 6995 times)

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Offline Glaede

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Hi guys

So I'm still struggling with my bike and I think I've narrowed it down a bit now. It happens every time I've ridden the bike for a while. What happens is that it seems to loose its sparks. It starts by running on 3 cylinders and then 2 and if i'm really lucky it will run on 1 cylinder only. Today when i finally managed to get home with the bike I measured the resistance in the spark plug caps. The caps are 1K Ohm (does 1K vs. 5K make a difference?), but when I measured the resistance with my multimeter I couldn't even measure any resistance in two of them? Could they #$%* up due to heat? They felt really warm when I pulled them off.

First I thought that it might be a charging issue since it fires up and runs after cleaning the plugs and charging for a couple of hours, but I measured my battery when I got home and it said 12.6V, so that seems alright. So my thought is now that something is #$%*ing up when it gets hot and then after cooling down it works again. I'm just hoping it isn't the coils, but what else could it be? Condensators? Plug caps?

Thanks!

Soeren, Denmark

« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 03:51:06 AM by Glaede »

Offline Duanob

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Re: CB550 runs like crap when it gets hot
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2013, 10:20:19 AM »
"The caps are 1K Ohm (does 1K vs. 5K make a difference?), "

If you ask the question then maybe you've found your answer?
"Just because you flush a boatload of money down the toilet, doesn't make the toilet worth more",  My Stepfather the Unknown Poet

1974 CB360T
1976 CB550K2 Resurrected
1976 CB550F2 Barn Find
1979 CX500 VG "HONDA-GUZZI"
2007 Moto Guzzi Breva 750ie
2015 BMW F700GS
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Offline flybox1

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Re: CB550 runs like crap when it gets hot
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2013, 10:23:23 AM »
Yes, good caps installed on clean wire makes a HUGE difference.
for the 550's, a good setup is 5K ohm caps and D7ES or X22ES-U Denso plugs
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

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Offline xsmooth69x

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Re: CB550 runs like crap when it gets hot
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2013, 11:45:07 AM »
spark plugs NGK 12mm D7EA Spark Plug

if you use NGK caps you need to unscrew the top section of the spark plug




spark plug gaps are .6 mm

spark plug wire splice if you wanna redo the wires from the coils NGK Plug Wire Splicer

spark plug caps are ngk part number XDO5F,stock number 8072



any 7mm wires copper wires will work i used some red NGK
http://www.z1enterprises.com/Dyna-Ignition-Wires--7mm-copper-core-red-209.aspx
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 12:01:14 PM by xsmooth69x »
1975 CB550 (FINISHED?!?!?)
first motorcycle ever!!! ow and i dont know how to ride it either :D

raw rust rice venti quad shot cafe racing latte project aka my build..... http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=88853.0

black and white equation godzilla chalkboard 
1972 cb750 - next in line for some <3

Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB550 runs like crap when it gets hot
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2013, 12:29:03 PM »
Most of the CB550s came with 10KΩ plug caps from the factory.  I still have originals working fine on my Cb550's.   Are you certain you are reading 1KΩ?  Perhaps you could explain your measurement procedure/process.

Regardless, I expect your spark loss is an effect rather than cause.  If cleaning the plug's porcelain restores operation, then you likely have a mixture problem, over rich, which is depositing conductive carbon soot on the spark plug insulators and depriving the spark gap from an isolated arc path.  Is the air filter clean and clear?

If I've guessed correctly, you can work on the spark components for quite a while and not cure your plug fouling condition. 

Also, I suspect your heat diagnosis is misplaced.  Heat build up and carbon buildup both take time in operation to occur.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline MoMo

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Re: CB550 runs like crap when it gets hot
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2013, 12:59:12 PM »
Most of the CB550s came with 10KΩ plug caps from the factory.  I still have originals working fine on my Cb550's.   Are you certain you are reading 1KΩ?  Perhaps you could explain your measurement procedure/process.

Regardless, I expect your spark loss is an effect rather than cause.  If cleaning the plug's porcelain restores operation, then you likely have a mixture problem, over rich, which is depositing conductive carbon soot on the spark plug insulators and depriving the spark gap from an isolated arc path.  Is the air filter clean and clear?

If I've guessed correctly, you can work on the spark components for quite a while and not cure your plug fouling condition. 

Also, I suspect your heat diagnosis is misplaced.  Heat build up and carbon buildup both take time in operation to occur.

Welcome back,  Lloyd, good to read your post again....Larry

Offline mono

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Re: CB550 runs like crap when it gets hot
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2013, 01:24:06 PM »
Most of the CB550s came with 10KΩ plug caps from the factory.  I still have originals working fine on my Cb550's.   Are you certain you are reading 1KΩ?  Perhaps you could explain your measurement procedure/process.

Regardless, I expect your spark loss is an effect rather than cause.  If cleaning the plug's porcelain restores operation, then you likely have a mixture problem, over rich, which is depositing conductive carbon soot on the spark plug insulators and depriving the spark gap from an isolated arc path.  Is the air filter clean and clear?

If I've guessed correctly, you can work on the spark components for quite a while and not cure your plug fouling condition. 

Also, I suspect your heat diagnosis is misplaced.  Heat build up and carbon buildup both take time in operation to occur.

TT, i know you're a guru, but i remember very recently reading another thread that said that the 550 caps should be at 5K ohm resistance -- if they're at 10 they should be replaced.  I mention this because i recently replaced my caps with new 5K ohm NGKs and I am using un-resistored plugs based on the other  thread's info.

Now I'm scared I got something wrong... ?

looked it up -- here's the link to the thread:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=102798.0

**re-edit** -- sorry i RTFA'd again and see that you make it clear in that thread that both 5K through 10K resistance works OK.  I don't think i scrolled down the 1st time i read that thread.  my bad!
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 01:29:02 PM by mono »

Offline Glaede

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Re: CB550 runs like crap when it gets hot
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2013, 11:43:24 PM »
Most of the CB550s came with 10KΩ plug caps from the factory.  I still have originals working fine on my Cb550's.   Are you certain you are reading 1KΩ?  Perhaps you could explain your measurement procedure/process.

Regardless, I expect your spark loss is an effect rather than cause.  If cleaning the plug's porcelain restores operation, then you likely have a mixture problem, over rich, which is depositing conductive carbon soot on the spark plug insulators and depriving the spark gap from an isolated arc path.  Is the air filter clean and clear?

If I've guessed correctly, you can work on the spark components for quite a while and not cure your plug fouling condition. 

Also, I suspect your heat diagnosis is misplaced.  Heat build up and carbon buildup both take time in operation to occur.

Well, I do have a fouling problem and it could be a fuel thing. My airfilter is not clean, but a new one is on the way (btw my carb setup is stock). I just thought that my caps needed replacement since that I'm only able to measure resistance in two of them - and also I got a nice kick the other night when touching one of the caps with the engine going. My thought was that the caps give up when they got hot, which leads to fouling the plugs.. But I could be wrong :-)

Anyway I will try to replace plugs, plug caps, airfilter and if it runs again I will sync the carbs and see how that works out.

Offline dave500

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Re: CB550 runs like crap when it gets hot
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2013, 01:00:19 AM »
try running it with the air filter removed in the mean time,even some clean looking air filters can be blocked especially if they are old and you admit to having a dirty one,might be half your problem?

Offline Glaede

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Re: CB550 runs like crap when it gets hot
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2013, 01:44:54 AM »
try running it with the air filter removed in the mean time,even some clean looking air filters can be blocked especially if they are old and you admit to having a dirty one,might be half your problem?

I actually did that last week for a small test ride and it ran fine. But I'm not sure I took it for a long enough test drive for the problem to occur. But yes, I'm really need that filter asap! It should arrive anytime soon..

Btw, my local Honda dealer recommends me buying 1K ohm caps and NGK D8EA which actually was the setup i bought the bike with. Why does he say that? Is it due to our weather or something like that here in Denmark?

Offline dave500

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Re: CB550 runs like crap when it gets hot
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2013, 03:29:10 AM »
umm?i run d7s ok here in queensland,,you can throw an egg on the sidewalk and it will cook,,where you live it wont break itll freeze?you need 5kohm caps not 1kohm caps,run the hotter 7s,,im sure you dont have the long hot runs our engines have to endure?the air filter quality is very important,,the honda one although expensive is the best,,the cheap ones from china are rubbish i wouldnt wipe my bum on,some aftermarket ones are good,,if you dont want hassles just pay for the honda one.,have you got a multimeter?are the caps the factory ones or very old?if they are factory ones im guessing they are worn by now and the resistance has gone too high?if you have a multimeter you can check them.

Offline Glaede

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Re: CB550 runs like crap when it gets hot
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2013, 03:32:33 AM »
umm?i run d7s ok here in queensland,,you can throw an egg on the sidewalk and it will cook,,where you live it wont break itll freeze?you need 5kohm caps not 1kohm caps,run the hotter 7s,,im sure you dont have the long hot runs our engines have to endure?the air filter quality is very important,,the honda one although expensive is the best,,the cheap ones from china are rubbish i wouldnt wipe my bum on,some aftermarket ones are good,,if you dont want hassles just pay for the honda one.,have you got a multimeter?are the caps the factory ones or very old?if they are factory ones im guessing they are worn by now and the resistance has gone too high?if you have a multimeter you can check them.

I did measure  the resistance with my multimeter and as i wrote, two of them has around 1K ohm resistance and two of them I can't measure any resistance - like there is no connection from one end to the other. They are 1K ohms, so i figure they have been replaced at some point, but they are def. not new. That's why i pick up some new ones later today..

The airfilter is from ebay, so it don't think its original ;-)

Offline Eddie

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Re: CB550 runs like crap when it gets hot
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2013, 04:43:07 AM »
I thought you need 10k total...5k plugs and 5k caps..

bollingball

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Re: CB550 runs like crap when it gets hot
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2013, 05:03:17 AM »
If the caps are oem then the resistors can be removed I don't think you can do that with the NGK ones. I don't think your local dealer knows these bikes very well. I would start with a new oem filter four new NGK 5Ω caps and four D7s. If I were you I would trust the consensus of this forum over your local dealer. Just for kicks how old did the guy appear? Dave500 and TT are two of the best on these bikes listen to them.

Larry I also read about the 10KΩ but don't know how or why it got changed to 5K. I thought maybe they don't make them but if that was all then why not run 5K and 5K on the plugs and caps to bring it back to 10K? Maybe someone can clear that up?
Ken
Ken

Offline dave500

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Re: CB550 runs like crap when it gets hot
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2013, 05:21:08 AM »
dont use/run resistor plugs with resistor caps,it is against the will of allah or some #$%*?run 5kohm caps with normal plugs,recently ive tested one year old ngk caps that measured open circuit on an auto ranging multimeter,so no matter how old they are test them/check them,,it can save you a lot of bother,this was on a 73 850 commando,kick only,i did none of the kicking,,you think im, stupid?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 05:22:52 AM by dave500 »

Offline Glaede

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Re: CB550 runs like crap when it gets hot
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2013, 05:31:52 AM »
If the caps are oem then the resistors can be removed I don't think you can do that with the NGK ones. I don't think your local dealer knows these bikes very well. I would start with a new oem filter four new NGK 5Ω caps and four D7s. If I were you I would trust the consensus of this forum over your local dealer. Just for kicks how old did the guy appear? Dave500 and TT are two of the best on these bikes listen to them.

Larry I also read about the 10KΩ but don't know how or why it got changed to 5K. I thought maybe they don't make them but if that was all then why not run 5K and 5K on the plugs and caps to bring it back to 10K? Maybe someone can clear that up?
Ken
Ken

I told him (over email) that I want the standard setup, meaning 5K caps and D7EA's sparkplugs :-) The plugs he unfortunately didn't have in stock, so I ordered them over ebay earlier today. Later I'll pick up the caps and test it tonight and see how that works out with my existing, though a bit sooty, D7EA's.

Offline dave500

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Re: CB550 runs like crap when it gets hot
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2013, 05:45:06 AM »
with all good intent the modern honda dealer dosent fully understand these old bikes nor should he have to?their top mechanics wouldnt have a clue as to even setting the points,,im not #$%*ting you this is fact!!they dont know the old tricks and fixes so only deal with them if you have to,,ive parked my not too bad  old 500 with a 550 engine at honda dealerships for a gander around and its attracted no interest,,the polite rep has come out and wants to sell me a bike,,the same as it wouldve been in the 70s?even your honda dealer wont be interested in such a #$%* heap?unless he can sell you parts?he wont be going out of hes way to source them though,,thank allah for david silvers!!

Offline Glaede

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Re: CB550 runs like crap when it gets hot
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2013, 05:50:00 AM »
with all good intent the modern honda dealer dosent fully understand these old bikes nor should he have to?their top mechanics wouldnt have a clue as to even setting the points,,im not #$%*ting you this is fact!!they dont know the old tricks and fixes so only deal with them if you have to,,ive parked my not too bad  old 500 with a 550 engine at honda dealerships for a gander around and its attracted no interest,,the polite rep has come out and wants to sell me a bike,,the same as it wouldve been in the 70s?even your honda dealer wont be interested in such a #$%* heap?unless he can sell you parts?he wont be going out of hes way to source them though,,thank allah for david silvers!!

Hehe I think you are right :-) He actually previously told me not to buy such an old bike, but its the only dealer around here and he sometimes got the parts that i need in stock, so I have to bare with him ;-)

Offline dave500

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Re: CB550 runs like crap when it gets hot
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2013, 05:56:02 AM »
ha!he wished you bought a new bike from him?in our countries these are a common old bike maybe like trabbants or vw beetles?

Offline Duanob

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Re: CB550 runs like crap when it gets hot
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2013, 10:24:37 AM »
It sounds like you need to start with a complete 3000 mile tune up with the proper parts adn a proper manual. test ride the crap out of it, then ask away if the issue still exists.
"Just because you flush a boatload of money down the toilet, doesn't make the toilet worth more",  My Stepfather the Unknown Poet

1974 CB360T
1976 CB550K2 Resurrected
1976 CB550F2 Barn Find
1979 CX500 VG "HONDA-GUZZI"
2007 Moto Guzzi Breva 750ie
2015 BMW F700GS
Another 1976 CB550K Cafe?

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Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB550 runs like crap when it gets hot
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2013, 10:40:10 AM »
My thought was that the caps give up when they got hot, which leads to fouling the plugs.. But I could be wrong :-)
To put it gently, you are, imo.   ;D

The coil output circuit is a loop, one lead to a spark plug through head to other spark plug and then back to the other coil lead.
Along the path are two spark gaps of about .025" each (.050" total) as well as inline resistances to help smooth and extend the spark pulse duration and limit the spark current enough to reduce the spark erosion of the D7 plug's hotter heat range (which extends their life).
The stock bike uses a 10K resistor in each plug cap for a total loop resistance of 20KΩ

The cap's resistors can go bad and if you are reading open circuit, they can still work ok, even if they aren't ideal.  It only takes a plug cap broken resistor gap of .001" to make them read open circuit.  But, adding that much gap to the loop circuit won't make much difference in operation.  Over the long term, the arcing inside the plug cap will erode the that gap even larger.   But, the symptom is misfires, not plug soot fouling.


Btw, my local Honda dealer recommends me buying 1K ohm caps and NGK D8EA which actually was the setup i bought the bike with. Why does he say that?
Almost certainly that's what he has on hand to sell you.  Most of the other SOHC4's of that era use D8 heat range, so he stocks what is most popular and moves faster off the shelves.

I think NGK stopped making the 10K plug cap option due to low demand.  So, they are now pretty hard to find.  Many people assume resistance is a bad thing and try to eliminate it, which is probably what led to the 1K stocking popularity.  Few people understand how electricity works.  But, 1KΩ plug caps would allow the dealer to sell you replacement spark plugs more often as they would wear out faster.  They like to see you often when you are paying.

To approximate what Honda did originally for your bike (without locating 10KΩ plug caps) you would need 5K plug caps and use resistor plugs (5KΩ each), in order to restore the 20 KΩ loop resistance the factory delivered. 

Definitely try a new/ clean air filter or operate without air filter to see if the plug fouling abates.  Your call about how dusty/dirty you normal air quality is.

Are your carbs stamped 649?  I don't know if Denmark got that importation variety along with the air filter restrictor inlet.  If so, that will add a new wrinkle to the situation.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Glaede

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Re: CB550 runs like crap when it gets hot
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2013, 11:00:14 AM »
I changed the caps today and removed the filter element, but that didn't help anything. The spark plugs are so #$%*ed up now that I can't just clean them up and run anymore. I think they are dead by now, so I'm on hold until i receive my new filter and new plugs :-( I have a feeling that its probably all due to a bad filter element as you guys have stated.... Could the needle position make it run way too rich?

Btw, I might add that, when it does fire properly on all fours, it pulls really strong and drives perfect!

Hmm, I dont think so. My carbs says 069A and my motor is an F2 motor i think.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 11:05:08 AM by Glaede »

Offline Glaede

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Re: CB550 runs like crap when it gets hot
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2013, 03:50:38 AM »
Okay, so I think I found the real problem this time ;-) I changed the plug caps, new plugs, airfilter and better grounding at the coils. And it still runs crappy. But, now I've noticed that the two carbs on the right (3 and 4) is not getting enough fuel. When I empty the carb the amount of gas is way different than no 1 and 2, and then I noticed that if a wiggle a bit with the fuel line the fuel flows better and fills up the carbs again. So I actually think this all boils down to a crappy fuel filter (even though its new) and maybe the fuel line is a bit long making it hard for the gas to flow properly.

I'm thinking to remove the damn fuel filter, but is there anything else I can do to make it flow better?

Thanks!

bollingball

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Re: CB550 runs like crap when it gets hot
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2013, 04:57:48 AM »
Okay, so I think I found the real problem this time ;-) I changed the plug caps, new plugs, airfilter and better grounding at the coils. And it still runs crappy. But, now I've noticed that the two carbs on the right (3 and 4) is not getting enough fuel. When I empty the carb the amount of gas is way different than no 1 and 2, and then I noticed that if a wiggle a bit with the fuel line the fuel flows better and fills up the carbs again. So I actually think this all boils down to a crappy fuel filter (even though its new) and maybe the fuel line is a bit long making it hard for the gas to flow properly.

I'm thinking to remove the damn fuel filter, but is there anything else I can do to make it flow better?

Thanks!

Yes reroute and shorten the fuel line. Does your bike have a in tank filter?
Now I was hoping this would not happen. I like and respect Both TT and Dave500. Now if I read things right one says run 10kΩwith 5kcaps and 5k plugs. Then one says 5k only. PLEASE I am not trying to start any trouble. I just do not understand What the will happen or show up as something wrong with it one way or the other.
 Just a good gentleman's debate.

Ken

Offline Glaede

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Re: CB550 runs like crap when it gets hot - UPDATE: Fuel issue
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2013, 07:32:28 AM »
I just took it for a run after cleaning the tank for rust, petcock filter and new fuel line. It ran beautiful! So I'm really happy right now. Now at least I know what to look for if it happens again.

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