Author Topic: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!  (Read 116411 times)

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Offline mihai.i

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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #400 on: November 16, 2014, 02:30:17 AM »
Not sure if its the same but I think Gordon uses Motul 7100 10W-40, and had some good things to say about it.
Anyone tried Motul Classic Car line?
http://motul.speclube.com/products/all-products/classic-oil-20w50-2l/

Now, THERE's a good idea! It meets the old SF/CC spec, which is precisely what Honda calls for in the k2 and later 750, and the 1973 and later 550/350F/400F manuals. It has anti-foaming additives, plating additives (aka ZDDP), and an anti-oxidant (the "CC" spec) just like the older oils from Valvoline, Havoline, Castrol, and a few others that worked well.

It was the notorious (and short-lived) "SH" spec when things went so badly wrong for these bikes, now we are at SJ and counting. The old "CC" spec was one of the first for diesels, also used for turbo engines.
Anyone tried Motul Classic Car line?
http://motul.speclube.com/products/all-products/classic-oil-20w50-2l/

Mihai, Motul is not that easy to find in USA - probably nobody tried it.

Now i am using Motul 3000 4T 20W50 mineral, whit no ZDDP add, because i can`t find it here, in Romania, for now.
I found some aditive from Red Line http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=121.
Probably, for the next year i will use the Clascic Line Oil from Motul. I is a litle bit more expensive but what the heck...
I thought Motul is more common in U.S.

@Hondaman. Do you think is a good ideea for my bike?
« Last Edit: November 16, 2014, 02:32:03 AM by mihai.i »
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Offline goldarrow

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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #401 on: November 16, 2014, 02:44:07 AM »

Anyone tried Motul Classic Car line?
http://motul.speclube.com/products/all-products/classic-oil-20w50-2l/

Mihai, Motul is not that easy to find in USA - probably nobody tried it.

Plenty on amazon.com
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #402 on: November 17, 2014, 06:29:41 AM »

Anyone tried Motul Classic Car line?
http://motul.speclube.com/products/all-products/classic-oil-20w50-2l/

Mihai, Motul is not that easy to find in USA - probably nobody tried it.

Plenty on amazon.com

Maybe so, but average American never seen Motul in their life.
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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #403 on: November 17, 2014, 07:38:35 AM »

Anyone tried Motul Classic Car line?
http://motul.speclube.com/products/all-products/classic-oil-20w50-2l/

Mihai, Motul is not that easy to find in USA - probably nobody tried it.

Plenty on amazon.com

Maybe so, but average American never seen Motul in their life.

Mabe the average American, but not the average metric motorcyclist.  ;)
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #404 on: November 17, 2014, 02:00:19 PM »
Motul is available from Parts Unlimited. I use the 300 synthetic in several bikes......good products.
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Offline mihai.i

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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #405 on: April 21, 2015, 11:49:13 AM »
Anyone tried Motul Classic Car line?
http://motul.speclube.com/products/all-products/classic-oil-20w50-2l/

Now, THERE's a good idea! It meets the old SF/CC spec, which is precisely what Honda calls for in the k2 and later 750, and the 1973 and later 550/350F/400F manuals. It has anti-foaming additives, plating additives (aka ZDDP), and an anti-oxidant (the "CC" spec) just like the older oils from Valvoline, Havoline, Castrol, and a few others that worked well.

It was the notorious (and short-lived) "SH" spec when things went so badly wrong for these bikes, now we are at SJ and counting. The old "CC" spec was one of the first for diesels, also used for turbo engines.

I found a new oil but i never tried it: Fuchs Silkolene.
They got also a classic line for vintage bikes called Silkolube 20W50. http://www.fuchslubricants.com/silkolube-20w-50

What do you think?
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Offline knottedknickers

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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #406 on: August 04, 2015, 07:15:56 PM »
At the risk of abusing a deceased equine mammal...

I'm getting close to putting oil into my recently buttoned-up engine (750 K6). I've read lots and lots about oil here, but I don't think anyone has referenced Lucas oils (just the additive, and that not recommended). I noticed their 'Hot Rod & Classic Car Oil' the other day, with "HIGH ZINC" emblazoned on the front. It looked promising. Any opinions?

According to their list of 'typical zinc values', the Hot Rod & Classic Car oil line has 2,100 ppm. Some of their other oils are as low as 861 ppm (the 'motor oils'), while others are as high as 3,634 ppm ('break-in oils'). Their 'motorcycle' oils are 1,058 ppm, with the exception of 'Synthetic 50W', which is 1,542 ppm. 'Extreme Duty SAE 20W-50 Marine Oil' is 3,132 ppm.  Etc., etc., etc. The long and short is, they seem to be sensitive to the needs of the 'zinc' crowd. ;-)

Anyway, if anyone has any advice--even how much zinc we should be looking for in our oil--that'd be great!
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 07:20:31 PM by knottedknickers »
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Offline Restoration Fan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #407 on: August 04, 2015, 08:59:40 PM »
Lucas makes really good products.  I have a mechanic friend who swears by their car stuff and won't put anything else in his classic Mercedes convertible.  He rides an antique Harley and uses it in that as well.  I think I'm gong to put it in Stella when I change her oil.
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Offline knottedknickers

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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #408 on: August 04, 2015, 09:04:40 PM »
Lucas makes really good products.  I have a mechanic friend who swears by their car stuff and won't put anything else in his classic Mercedes convertible.  He rides an antique Harley and uses it in that as well.  I think I'm gong to put it in Stella when I change her oil.
Good to know that Lucas is respected! I need to ask, though: which flavour would you go with? I guess my question about 'how much zinc' still stands... :-\
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Offline edwardmorris

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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #409 on: August 04, 2015, 09:13:09 PM »
Lucas makes really good products.  I have a mechanic friend who swears by their car stuff and won't put anything else in his classic Mercedes convertible.  He rides an antique Harley and uses it in that as well.  I think I'm gong to put it in Stella when I change her oil.
Good to know that Lucas is respected! I need to ask, though: which flavour would you go with? I guess my question about 'how much zinc' still stands... :-\
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,119643.msg1700716.html#msg1700716

Offline trueblue

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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #410 on: August 05, 2015, 02:03:41 AM »
I run Lucas in my 650 and it runs much nicer since I put it in.  I think the grade is 10/40 if I remember correctly.  It warms up nicer, has far less rattles and is just generally nicer and the additive is just fine with the wet clutch, I have run it for nearly as long as I have had the bike without an issue.  ;D
« Last Edit: August 05, 2015, 02:06:18 AM by trueblue »
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Offline knottedknickers

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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #411 on: August 05, 2015, 06:38:06 AM »
Lucas makes really good products.  I have a mechanic friend who swears by their car stuff and won't put anything else in his classic Mercedes convertible.  He rides an antique Harley and uses it in that as well.  I think I'm gong to put it in Stella when I change her oil.
Good to know that Lucas is respected! I need to ask, though: which flavour would you go with? I guess my question about 'how much zinc' still stands... :-\
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,119643.msg1700716.html#msg1700716
Roger that. I just haven't seen Spectro in my neck of the woods (Canada). And given that Lucas products have similar amounts of zinc--and often more--I thought I'd ask. It'd still be nice to know what amount of zinc we're aiming for... Ofreen is running the Spectro HD 20w50, which he notes has 1938 ppm. Lucas 'Hot Rod & Classic Car' oil has 2100 ppm. Looks like that's the closest Lucas equivalent. Unless 'more is better' and I could safely head up to the 3000 ppm range (though I have noted the tendency of 'too much zinc' to harden inside the cases and potentially cause problems)?
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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #412 on: August 05, 2015, 08:27:41 PM »
Lucas makes really good products.  I have a mechanic friend who swears by their car stuff and won't put anything else in his classic Mercedes convertible.  He rides an antique Harley and uses it in that as well.  I think I'm gong to put it in Stella when I change her oil.
Good to know that Lucas is respected! I need to ask, though: which flavour would you go with? I guess my question about 'how much zinc' still stands... :-\
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,119643.msg1700716.html#msg1700716
Roger that. I just haven't seen Spectro in my neck of the woods (Canada). And given that Lucas products have similar amounts of zinc--and often more--I thought I'd ask. It'd still be nice to know what amount of zinc we're aiming for... Ofreen is running the Spectro HD 20w50, which he notes has 1938 ppm. Lucas 'Hot Rod & Classic Car' oil has 2100 ppm. Looks like that's the closest Lucas equivalent. Unless 'more is better' and I could safely head up to the 3000 ppm range (though I have noted the tendency of 'too much zinc' to harden inside the cases and potentially cause problems)?

For a few years in the 1980s Honda offered their own oil mix (Hondaline oils) around the time Castrol sold its label to Hatch Industries (who turned it into a cheap paraffin-based oil that was terrible in these bikes). The Hondaline oils had so much zinc in them that they could pack the oil holes in the clutch hubs almost closed, causing lots (and lots) of failed clutches. This led to the infamous clutch plate shortage around 1990 that many of us Hondaites experienced, at least out here in the West. I tore my bottom end apart in 1980 to see why my clutch suddenly started slipping for no apparent reason, to discover zinc plating so thick inside the cases that I could scrape it off with my fingernail. So, I cleaned it all out (after the local Honda shop mechanics asked me, "What the hell is that stuff?", because I brought it to them for their opinion...) and washed the bearings out, and started over. About the same time, Castrol bought their label back from Hatch and re-introduced the XLR and also the GTX for cars (with more detergent), remaining to today. The XLR became "4T Motorcycle oil" when the zinc was reduced to passenger-car levels, to distinguish it from their high-detergent oils for car engines.
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Offline Justin

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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #413 on: August 05, 2015, 08:33:16 PM »
Love your wealth of information HondaMan.


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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #414 on: August 05, 2015, 10:23:32 PM »
So, what is Hondaline oil like these days? Still bad?
Cannot imagine that they kept the zinc additives high for a long time, given additives drive up the prices.
Especially given the government interference which precipitated many of the changes that spell disaster for older cars and shorter life on new cars.
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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #415 on: August 09, 2015, 12:40:07 PM »
So, what is Hondaline oil like these days? Still bad?
Cannot imagine that they kept the zinc additives high for a long time, given additives drive up the prices.
Especially given the government interference which precipitated many of the changes that spell disaster for older cars and shorter life on new cars.


You're on the right 'track', here. The Japanese and other oil importerss are forced to comply with the EPA regs about zinc since 2012. Inside the [pseudo] free marketplace here, oil makers have since relabeled their zinc-laden products that we need with "Not for highway use", or "For offroad use only", implying that if you have a new vehicle that is made to cope with zinc-less oil, you can use their other stuff OK. Most offroad vehicles are not required to pass emissions tests, so they may not have catalytic convertors on their exhausts, which can suffer from zinc leeching out of the engine (presuming bad rings?) to inert the platinum catalyst units. Zinc adheres to platinum at high temps, covering it like paint.

This all started with a bribe from BMW to an EPA agent in the early 2000s, during the Clinton presidency. This was considered an acceptable thing in those days (much like now?). The issue was: BMW could not import their high-end cars to the US because our oil had lots of zinc in it to protect the engines (as it should be), and BMW could not meet emission rules with their hotrod engines unless they used an expensive platinum-lined catalyst in their catalytic convertors. So...instead of fixing the problem properly with other technology, they simply (after 2 years of trying) bribed the EPA person(s) who oversaw this activity, who then issued an edict that all oil manufacturers must remove 90% of the zinc from their oils by 2006. They eventually lost their jobs (quietly, I might add) over it, but here we are, now...
« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 10:55:53 AM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #416 on: December 21, 2015, 09:27:27 AM »
Was refreshing my aging memory and re-reading the thread...


No this isn't a soyboysigh posting...
 :) ;) ;) 8)

Just for giggles I thought I would see what the 55 gallon drum of Belray costs now...

Merely  1811.80 $US  or $32.94/gallon.
Previous post-er reported a price on Sept. 24, 2014 of $26.9974545454/gallon or approximately $1486 for 55 gallon drum. So, the shipping costs rolled into the price or the price has gone up...at least on that one seller now offering it on Amazon.

The Amazon low price I get with free shipping is $24.30   with 9 left at that price for the 4L bottle...

Given that 4L = 1 US gallon liquid and 0.4535056 US pint liquid (7.2560896 ounces US liquid).
That 55 gallon drum is 208.1976L and dividing by 4 yields = 52.0494 4L bottles
Dividing the 1811.88 $US price by 52 yields a 4L price of about $32.84US a 4L bottle.

So, it is still cheaper to buy by the 4L bottle.


For a shop, it would be easier to store the 55 gallon drum with a leak-resistant spout that could drain the 55 gallon can cleanly. Not sure how much would be left in the drum that would be difficult to extract, same given a 4L bottle...
I've often wondered about the tiny amount left in a container... I've even seen homemade systems for draining and collecting the residual little bits into another container. One company years ago even made one where you up-ended the bottles into a oil resistant hose end that would hold 4-5 bottles to drain into a single bottle in a clamping system that had the hose leading inside the quart bottle below. It had a velcro'd elastic strap that could secure the individual bottles once up-ended and the bottom bottle threaded into a cap (apparently oil bottles mostly used the same thread pitch for their caps.)
Then, you could use the little bit left over and it could drain into the bottle until you needed it or you put another bottle in place. It is typical with today's engines to use a bit of oil between changes most every manufacturer tells us. Years ago the engines were designed not to use any, that use indicated a leak or engine problem developing. Today, you can't use that same simple diagnostic method on modern automotive engines.


The amount clinging to the bottle is small, would the greater surface area of a drum make it more difficult to extract. Then, the issue with the 55 gallon drum is it metal or plastic. For a shop, storing a drum is far more efficient space utilization/easier than 52 4L jugs.
If the drum is metal with a band clamp sealing tank lid you could potentially drain it easier by upending it into a catch pan, but it is difficult and sometimes messy and not worth the hassle or time for a shop. So, how is the drum reused or recycled?
With a plastic drum/container you can do so as well, but they tend to be more user friendly for other uses and won't rust as long as you don't puncture them. One good use I've seen large blue 55 gallon drums used for was a rainwater harvesting system to water your plants and could be sold once rinsed clean (or sold leaving the buyer to clean as appropriate.) California & some other states would not allow their disposal in that manner as the original buyer is responsible for turning over to appropriate hazardous waste unit. Most shops use the old drum as a recycle oil container for collection to their recycler.
Even in Eastern US where you get sufficient rainfall, a rainwater harvesting system is a good thing to do, Just water prices here in the Eastern US where water is more abundant haven't reached SW and W state prices. So, in eastern US and areas where there is freezing and it is viable, then you could burying the drums below the typical frost line and having a diverter gate valve to bypass the tanks in winter (so you don't have that problem of frozen tanks...
Burying them you could have a rainwater storage system that is out of sight. People in the Southwest don't hide them as often and if they are out of sight of the front of the property no-one views it as a negative that I knew. But, I didn't run with the rich people crowd. Burying the tanks gives you a evaporation resistant system as well. Houses aren't setup for the harvesting here, but rising water prices more people should be doing it as water is a resource you don't need treated and chlorinated water for washing cars, or watering plants. Just a storage system and pump system to get the water where you need it and the ability to purge the lines to protect them from freezing when winter comes, just like it would in the SW where systems are installed that see freezing temps.




Sorry for the segue...just a topic that would need addressed on what you do with the drum after use.


If you have friends with motorcycles they could pay you $33/4L to refill theirs as needed. A motorcycle club could divvy up the 55 gallon amongst members all at once. With members saving old 4L bottles for reuse. Until they punctured or recycled that bottle. Just need to mark or measure the typical height or have a metered system so you are dispensing 4L at a time or you won't have 52 4L shares if you give everyone a few ounces too much...

David


P.S. Sorry, I'm an engineer, it is my nature to think through a solutions and up and down sides and proposed end use of left over/waste materials...

55 gallons of this oil here http://www.amazon.com/Bel-Ray-EXL-Mineral-Engine-Oil/dp/B0045LCCNI
That comes out to only $26.99745454 dollars per gallon, and with free shipping to sweeten the deal! ;)
« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 09:44:10 AM by RAF122S »
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #417 on: December 21, 2015, 10:01:02 AM »

Maybe so, but average American never seen Motul in their life.

Unless they have watched European racing with Motul being a sponsor of the race series. I have seen Motol for 30 years having owned Swedish cars and purchased products from European car suppliers here in the US. Most of the MG and foreign car parts specialist shops in Columbus Ohio would carry Motul and other European brands. Have you seen some of the more obscure brands such as Elf, BizOil, CalTran, Pentosin, Liqui-Moly, Penrite, Urania, etc.
David- back in the desert SW!