Author Topic: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!  (Read 117014 times)

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #200 on: August 20, 2013, 11:12:35 PM »
You couldn't make some guides Mark..?


Well, that's what I am having to do with the CycleX oversized OD guides I have. I turned the intake set down .0008" or so to make a good .0012" interference fit, they came out fine. Guess I'll have to do it to the exhausts, now, too.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #201 on: August 20, 2013, 11:18:39 PM »
I would think some members here or on the Honda twins site would want them if you can't return them. Don't try to restore a CA77/78/95 or even an S90 as many of the sellers claim to have the correct cable, handlebars, or mechanical part but do not as Toytuff , Greggo,  myself, and many others have learned. Foreign or domestic sellers are either eager to sell and have no scruples or simply do not know what they have or have been duped by their sources/suppliers/distributors.

Sodium filled valves like those used on turbo motors are very good at handling heat. Wonder what an early Saab turbo or Volvo B21F turbo valves these are small turbo motors and wonder if they could be adapted. But, the stellite guides are superior to bronze at pulling heat off the valve, that is the property you want. What do modern turbo motors use for valves and valve guides? Is it the same as the early turbo motors with sodium filled valves and satellite valve guides and satellite valve seats?

If stellite was easy to machine it would be easy to resize, but it is hard and brittle.

I think I am fortunate in that this guy just seems to not know the parts very well. He says he'll either swap or send back the $. He has a lot of NOS stuff, so maybe we'll work out a trade?

Yeah, the Stellite is like Pyrex glass. Hard as nails, brittle as ice. The machinist mentioned how he disliked removing them, until he tried: they slid right out. The #2 exhaust had a chip out of the top from the factory, but it never bothered the valve. The exhaust valves show absolutely NO wear on their stems at 140k miles, while the intakes have worn just a hair. The stems look barely even polished. I had the faces turned .0015" some years ago, so the margins are too small to reuse them again (less than 0.4mm on most of them now), so I got some new ones, anyway. But, they went over 80k miles with those margins, so I guess the guides 'saved' them, too?

That's Stellite. ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Tews19

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #202 on: August 21, 2013, 02:08:13 AM »
Great update! I'm learning a lot!
1969 Honda CB750... Basket case
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Offline kstoyman

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #203 on: August 21, 2013, 06:38:13 AM »
Sorry to hear of your trials getting the motor work done. Thanks for documenting, this is a big help for all of us!
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #204 on: August 21, 2013, 11:46:33 AM »
Somehow I can see and hear Brando calling out "Stellite". Oh wait, that was "Stella".  ;D ;)

Sorry Mark, couldn't resist.
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline MoMo

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #205 on: August 21, 2013, 02:22:58 PM »
Somehow I can see and hear Brando calling out "Stellite". Oh wait, that was "Stella".  ;D ;)

Sorry Mark, couldn't resist.


I thought of the same quote Jerry...Larry

Offline Tews19

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #206 on: August 23, 2013, 12:53:28 PM »
Hey Mark here are a few pics of the bronze sliders on the early K0 fork tubes... If you want to use them to make more I can send them your way.. If you look close you can see a stamp still on them.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk 2

1969 Honda CB750... Basket case
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #207 on: August 23, 2013, 05:31:43 PM »
Hey Mark here are a few pics of the bronze sliders on the early K0 fork tubes... If you want to use them to make more I can send them your way.. If you look close you can see a stamp still on them.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk 2



Hey, that would be terrific! Then I don't have to take mine out for a week or more while I make new ones. Can I pay the postage, or something?
:D
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Tews19

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #208 on: August 23, 2013, 07:25:12 PM »
Sure.. PM me your addy. I have to coach my kids football game tomorrow but it will be in the mail first thing Monday..
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #209 on: August 24, 2013, 10:18:24 PM »
Someone asked me about the "press fit sizes" of these valve guides (and other things), so here's my research on it, based on Honda's 1970s production methods (which seem to have worked out pretty well?) :

The heads are made of a zinc-aluminum alloy. The zinc stiffens up the aluminum and (greatly) reduces its tendency to "migrate" when hot. For the sake of the numbers to follow below, we'll assume it is the MOST expansive aluminum alloy 7075 (which it is not, by far, due to that zinc aid), at 13 uinch/in/degree F (that is, .000013" per inch of diameter per degree F).
So, for a valve guide of the 750's OD, which is .4755" OD, at 300 degrees this would be:

(13 * .4755 * .000001 * 300) = .00186", or for most discussions, .002" of growth.

(I chose 300 degrees to work with because that's the temperature of the exhaust "flower" on the front of my 750's head after a hard hiway run at 75 MPH in 4th gear for several minutes on a 95 degree summer day, pulling off the road and leaning over right away to measure it with a high-accuracy temperature gun I used to have.)

For the bronze, this same expansion (using silicon bronze) is 9.0 u"/inch/degree, or
(9.0 * .4755 * .000001 * 300) = .00128", or a little over .001" (to help keep the numbers down).

(I'm an engineer: we love to play these silly number games... ;)  )

Keep in mind: the hole in the head also SHRINKS a little bit from the full expansion number, as the metal around it grows somewhat: this is why rounding that number up from .00186" to .002" is valid: calcs show the real value would be .00189", so I'll call it .002" to throw in some extra "looseness", just in case... ).

So...at 300 degrees, the exhaust valve guide grows (much more quickly than the head) by .001" while the hole in the head might grow as much as .002". Therefore, the press fit must be MORE than the .001" difference in their growth rate. So, minimum press fit should be a little over .0010". Keep in mind: if both holes are EXACTLY the same size, this is still a press fit that will not slip, ever.

Now for the magic of 'the rest of the story' (thanks, Paul H.!)...

The head always carries the heat away much faster (exhaust side) than the heat coming into the guide via the valve stem, so the head hole is ALWAYS smaller than the guide OD, even if they started out at the same diameter. Honda demonstrates that they knew this by using a press fit of just .0002" on their cast iron guides for the exhaust side. You can easily check this out yourself if you have taken an old head apart: just measure the guide OD and the hole ID and you will find .0000" to .0004" (those are ten thousandths of an inch) interference fits there. In other words, if the guides are clean of crud, they just tap out with a hammer after the first stronger blow breaks them loose.

On the intake side: the guides from Honda are usually the same OD as on the exhaust, but the head holes are typically .0002" to .0004" smaller than on the exhaust side. Since the incoming fuel will cool down the intake guides (relative to the head temp) by about 50-80 degrees, it is necessary for this side to be a tighter fit.

But: the old cast iron guides only expand by 6 u"/inch/degree! (Compare that to the 50% more expansive bronze). Yet, these bikes work perfectly with these very light press fits with cast iron guides, so even if the same .0002" fit-up were used with bronze, it would work fine.

So...if you use bronze guides, make them the same OD as the cast iron guides for an easy installation with NO ID shrinkage, or if you are worried about "loose guides" use a minimal .001" press fit. This is light enough to be tapped in by hand using a piloted driver tool (use a .258" diameter inside these .260" ID guides) if you heat the head to, say, 250-275 degrees and spray a little CRC freeze spray (about 2-3 seconds) on the ID of the guide (pre-oil it, please...). In the end, you will find that after the head has cooled with the new guides in place (presuming the APE pre-sized guides, here...) that near the seat end of the guide it will be slightly narrower from the head squeezing it down afterward. I find that if I check the bore immediately after installation using an intake valve stem (0.2595" when new) that they drop right in: after about 2 hours of cooling they have to be honed or reamed a bit as they become less than .0005" clearance nearest the valve seat end. This takes about 3-5 minutes honing with an old, well-worn hone, or 2-3 seconds with a nice, new, sharp reamer in a drill at 350 RPM.

The APE guides are typically the same OD or +.0004" larger than the cast iron guides, based on the last 3 sets I just measured this week. This bodes well for their installation. Their ID is .260", which, if the guide did not shrink at all, would be a prefect spec fit with no post-installation honing. Usually, the exhaust guides need no further work, coming out in the Honda spec'd clearance range of .0012"-.0024" easily. Sometimes the intake sides close up more than .0004" after cooling, or else they, too, would be right on Honda's minimum clearance. So, a light hone on the intakes is often all the APE guides need to finish the job.

APE makes nice stuff!
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline 70CB750

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #210 on: August 25, 2013, 02:15:08 AM »
Thanks Mark, very interesting, printing.

But I still have visual only in metric, I guess teaching new tricks takes a while  :)
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #211 on: August 25, 2013, 09:53:16 PM »
Today I got the CycleX guides reamed in my head: boy, that takes some torque! I almost burned up my old Black & Decker drill in the process. Unlike the pre-sized APE guides, these have ID sizes in the .2575" to .2582" range, out of the bag. Once installed, this became less than .257" for the portion of the guides buried in the head itself. I used first a .259" reamer, then the .260" reamer, and had supper in between exhausts and intakes: the drill is still too hot to touch without gloves! This must be why Sunnen makes those monster gearbox-driven motors for this procedure...

Later I have to hone them so the oil will have a place to hide during break-in. :)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Pecantree

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #212 on: August 26, 2013, 09:50:40 AM »
Mark:
Quick question. What was your latest MPG figures before the teardown and what do you think you'll end up with?
Steve
http://www.harvestclassic.org/

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #213 on: August 26, 2013, 09:40:27 PM »
Mark:
Quick question. What was your latest MPG figures before the teardown and what do you think you'll end up with?
Steve

They weren't bad: I was running about 38 in all-city riding, which had only about 2 miles of the 15 mile trip at 5th-gear speeds. On the open road below 70 MPH, it pulls out about 40-42 with the 4.00-18 rear tire and 17 tooth front sprocket, running midgrade fuel.

With the 120-90 rear tire and 18 tooth front sprocket and me with the Krauser saddlebags stuffed at about 80 lbs., it would usually get around 42-44 MPG at 65-75 MPH on premium fuels. With the same gearing, it got 38-40 at the old 55-60 MPH speed limit, but would yield 50-52 MPG if I dropped it to 4th on every incline or headwind. That's when I dropped it back to 17 tooth front sprocket for most riding, until the 75 MPH limit came back. When I am done with this rebuild, I'll go back to the 18T for the break-in and to use those numbers to test it against my old baseline from the late 1990s. I was 'out of commission' from 2001 to 2006 with the bike after I had cancer and could not centerstand it until all the healing got through me. The sitting sure didn't do it any good! These bikes do MUCH better if ridden frequently, and IMO, occasionally beaten..
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #214 on: September 02, 2013, 09:14:29 PM »
Things are looking up! I got the head back together and on the engine today.

Here's some shots of the lapped, finished valves: I ended up re-using my old valves. Their stem diameter was still 0.2591", which is MORE than the new ones I bought(!), and level through the whole wear region (ah, Stellite...).

The valve springs, well...that was a different story. They were all shrunk a little, about .020" on average. I didn't wish to risk having one fail or crack from the next 100k miles, so I got some from a scrapped K0 head. I have the straight-wound springs, not the tapered ones that started in the K3, so I thought I'd just keep that combo. I have not seen either one fail very much (usually just the sharp ends chip off under the upper spring retainer if they fail), and I don't plan on spending much time about 8000 RPM now, so these should be fine for me.  :)

There have been lots of reports of leaking head gaskets, even with Vesrah kits, so here's some of the things I ferretted out today, using a new VG-157 top end kit:

1. The Vesrah head gaskets (like most of them today) have no sealant in them. This means you should add your own around the oil drain passages, even around the oil feed passages.

2. The orange (silicone high-temp) 11x2.4mm O-rings Vesrah supplies for the head-cylinder interface for the oil feed passages are TOO SMALL and TOO SOFT, a bad combination. I have posted about this before, but here goes again: use at least a 2.5mm cross-section O-ring (2.6mm is better, harder to find) with the Vesrah head gasket(s) or the ones from the Crusin'Image 836cc piston kits. The OEM size of this O-ring was 11x2.4mm, but that was for a 1mm (.040") thick Honda head gasket: the Vesrah gaskets are about 1.2mm (.050") thick instead (so are the 836 gaskets). So, the O-rings must be AT LEAST 0.2mm thicker than the OEM version. The softness of the silicone O-ring is fine for a drain, but not for 70+ PSI oil pressures: use either Buna or Viton here. Buna will be OK unless you plan on using synthetic oils a lot: then it can weep here. So, add sealant around the oil feed passages if you are going that route. I did it anyway, so I'm sure the next disassembly will be the Devils' Child...

3. If you get 'stuck' with the post-1973 head gasket (big holes for the 8 oil drains) and you have a pre-1973 engine, insert a 2x11.5 or 2x12 O-ring into each head gasket "drain hole". I had the correct head gasket here, so this picture doesn't show up just now: mine is the small holes all around. This issue has come up on the Crusin'Image 836 kits when installed into pre-1973 engines (I hear about it a lot) because of the leaks that can occur.

4. Add sealant around the whole cam chain tunnel. Honda did: I'm sure it was important!

Tomorrow I will loosen the head bolts and re-torque.  ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Tews19

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #215 on: September 02, 2013, 09:18:45 PM »
Engine looks really clean now...

 I may have missed it, but what did you do about the broken fins? Or maybe I am confusing myself with your advice on how to fix them but I thought I read it on this thread..


EDIT---- I reread response 48.. Great work
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 09:21:58 PM by Tews19 »
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Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #216 on: September 02, 2013, 09:20:50 PM »
Cool stuff Hondaman, you do great work on everything you work on, as if it is your own stuff. This just happens to be yours...
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #217 on: September 03, 2013, 07:11:59 AM »
HM,

Have you ever used MLS head gaskets? If so, what are you thoughts on them?

Great build by the way! I'm really enjoying following along and picking up all kinds of great information that you have in here.

IW

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #218 on: September 03, 2013, 03:27:12 PM »
HM,

Have you ever used MLS head gaskets? If so, what are you thoughts on them?

Great build by the way! I'm really enjoying following along and picking up all kinds of great information that you have in here.

IW

MLS are the best gaskets you can get for our bikes.... ;)
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750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #219 on: September 03, 2013, 08:14:43 PM »
Well, now I'm getting slowed down again: I just got bitten by [another] brown Recluse spider on Friday night while sleeping. I had one last July, too! It's only day 4 and the whole top of my left [dominant] hand is involved. Ow...  >:(
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #220 on: September 03, 2013, 08:57:03 PM »
Dang! Bad luck. Sounds like you need to have the exterminator treat the property and barrier stuff at doors and windows. Nasty little buggers.
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline bambuhiphop

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #221 on: September 03, 2013, 10:40:26 PM »
Ah man!! Get better soon Mark.
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Offline MOONDOGNYC

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #222 on: September 04, 2013, 12:40:02 AM »
Really ??? I thought that was deadly ?
1977 CB750F


Offline Greggo

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #223 on: September 04, 2013, 04:12:12 AM »
Really ??? I thought that was deadly ?

They can be! 

Get well soon Mark! 
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 06:57:41 PM by Greggo »

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #224 on: September 07, 2013, 02:57:54 PM »
Really ??? I thought that was deadly ?

I once met a young guy in a parking lot who had more than 20 bites: he had hired himself out to clean someone's attic and got into a nest of them. He was thumbing himself coast-to-coast for a summer adventure between high school and college, a real sharp kid. But, he needed antibiotics, quick! I couldn't buy any for him, sent him to the local public hospital where they helped him out. He was one sick puppy! I hope he came out OK.

I was bitten last July and didn't know what it was: after mis-treatment by one of these "urgent care" facilities (DON'T EVER go to one of those...) I got to a real doctor abot 7 days after the bite. My entire right hand was then involved up past the wrist. It was almost 3 times as thick as normal, and paralyzed. After 2 weeks of CiPro antibiotics, a hole about 1/8" in diameter opened up at the bite site on my middle finger, and for 3 days out flowed large amounts of pus, pure pus, over and over. I used a whole roll of paper towels the first day (this was at work!) and another the next 2 at home, just soaking it up. My fever finally came down after that, and my arm stopped aching clear up to my chest, but it was another month before I got much use of the hand back.

This time was a repeat, but since I got the CiPro the very next day, it only got as far as my palm. It opened up Thursday with a similar hole, and today I can sort of type with it. The fever finally stopped yesterday morning.

I can see how this can kill someone, and often wonder about that kid 3 years ago. In fact, the only reason I recognized the bites for what they were was that's kid's marks: every one had the same little hole-look that mine do.
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