Author Topic: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!  (Read 116521 times)

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Offline goldarrow

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Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #375 on: September 26, 2014, 08:26:36 PM »
Come on people.  I know I'm not all that smart but come on

26.99745454 dollars per gallon, and you have to buy at 55 gallon quantity

vs.

 25.95 for 4L deal

You guys go figure
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Offline oldhatt45

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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #376 on: September 27, 2014, 10:54:01 AM »
Sorry I'm late to the party regarding the Oil Type.
From my original 1976 version notebook, I just checked and from brand new, I was running Bel-Ray 20w-40 in my old girl.  Never used anything else.  Very glad to hear that the newer Bel-Ray performs well in these Old Ladies. 

Thank You Hondaman for the Info.  Also the info regarding the Zinc additive!

Charlie

Offline willis

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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #377 on: November 11, 2014, 07:48:48 AM »
I was looking at getting some of the Bel-Ray mineral oil per Hondaman's glowing recommendation when I ran across the post on the other side of the internet...
http://hondachopper.yuku.com/topic/51000/Re-Bel-Ray-20W50-4-stroke-mineral-oil-bad-for-the-clutch?page=-1#.VGIuwfnF-FU
Obviously it could have been other issues, but it made me hesitate just a tad...
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 07:52:29 AM by willis »

Offline ofreen

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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #378 on: November 11, 2014, 08:16:34 AM »
So, now we know which oil is best!

I know a guy who has a '75F that will turn over 149,000 original miles next week (if the weather holds).  He has been using Spectro conventional oil in it since 62,000 miles. He hasn't found the need for any zinc additives with the Spectro. ;)
Greg
'75 CB750F

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Offline MCRider

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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #379 on: November 11, 2014, 08:40:26 AM »
So, now we know which oil is best!

I know a guy who has a '75F that will turn over 149,000 original miles next week (if the weather holds).  He has been using Spectro conventional oil in it since 62,000 miles. He hasn't found the need for any zinc additives with the Spectro. ;)
You (or that guy you know) are the man!

Just curious does the Spectro stipulate it is MC oil?
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Offline ofreen

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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #380 on: November 11, 2014, 09:27:08 AM »

Just curious does the Spectro stipulate it is MC oil?

Yes, it is termed motorcycle oil.  Here is what the label looks like these days.
Greg
'75 CB750F

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Offline MCRider

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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #381 on: November 11, 2014, 09:35:59 AM »

Just curious does the Spectro stipulate it is MC oil?

Yes, it is termed motorcycle oil.  Here is what the label looks like these days.
I've always heard good stuff about Spectro, never tried it myself.
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
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Offline Roach Carver

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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #382 on: November 11, 2014, 01:26:36 PM »
didn't it used to be golden spectro

Offline grcamna2

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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #383 on: November 11, 2014, 01:46:34 PM »
didn't it used to be golden spectro

Golden Spectro is their full synthetic;I've ran 10/40 standard Spectro in customers bikes in the past and it shifted great for the whole oil change duration.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #384 on: November 11, 2014, 07:28:37 PM »

Just curious does the Spectro stipulate it is MC oil?

Yes, it is termed motorcycle oil.  Here is what the label looks like these days.

What's that stuff cost, Greg? I've not seen that, only their "Golden" kind before. The way synthetics seem to find their way out of the paper gaskets in these engines, I tend to shy away from them despite their good performance.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline ofreen

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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #385 on: November 12, 2014, 05:03:17 AM »

What's that stuff cost, Greg? I've not seen that, only their "Golden" kind before. The way synthetics seem to find their way out of the paper gaskets in these engines, I tend to shy away from them despite their good performance.

Good morning, Mark. It ain't cheap, about 8 bucks a quart these days.  Sometimes the liter size is on the shelf for the same price.  But I never change it before 3000 miles, with a filter change every other change. 

From Spectro's FAQ page on their heavy duty oils -

What is the zinc content, if any in your HD motorcycle oil SAE 50?

Answer:
All of our HD oils (HD20w50, HD25w60, HD50, HD60, HD70) contain 1800ppm zinc (zddp) and phosphorus.

http://www.spectro-oils.com/technical-data/faq/
Greg
'75 CB750F

"I would rather have questions I cannot answer than answers I cannot question." - Dr. Wei-Hock Soon

Offline Ravie

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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #386 on: November 13, 2014, 06:41:46 PM »
I may be opening a can of worms here..but...

What's the deal with using such viscous oil? Why 20w50 in a fresh rebuild?  Why not 5w40 or 10w40? 
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Offline grcamna2

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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #387 on: November 13, 2014, 06:54:02 PM »
I may be opening a can of worms here..but...

What's the deal with using such viscous oil? Why 20w50 in a fresh rebuild?  Why not 5w40 or 10w40?

Harley V-twins take heavier viscosity oil than our Honda sohc's
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Offline Ravie

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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #388 on: November 13, 2014, 07:04:37 PM »
?  That doesn't answer my question. HM is using 20w50 in a fresh rebuild on his SOHC. I'm curious why such a heavy oil in a fresh tight engine when lighter weights would seem to me to give adequate protection and tax the oil pump less, in theory.

The Bel-Ray you bought and used also comes in a 10w40. I'd be tempted personally to use that. 20w50 is going to starve for longer periods of time on startup, for one thing.

I'm not here to make any judgments, I'm really just curious.
1975 CB750K5 Rebuild in progress.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=139072.0

Offline ofreen

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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #389 on: November 13, 2014, 07:39:54 PM »

20w50 is going to starve for longer periods of time on startup, for one thing.


Are you sure about that? ;)
Greg
'75 CB750F

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #390 on: November 13, 2014, 09:33:53 PM »
?  That doesn't answer my question. HM is using 20w50 in a fresh rebuild on his SOHC. I'm curious why such a heavy oil in a fresh tight engine when lighter weights would seem to me to give adequate protection and tax the oil pump less, in theory.

The Bel-Ray you bought and used also comes in a 10w40. I'd be tempted personally to use that. 20w50 is going to starve for longer periods of time on startup, for one thing.

I'm not here to make any judgments, I'm really just curious.

Hmm...this sounds a little like inexperience? First thing: Honda's recommendation is 20w50 above 50 degrees F (ambient air) operation, and/or for touring use: check any of the OEM Honda manuals and you will find this spec. They consider commuting on freeways as touring use, too.

In 1973 there was a major boo-boo in the Jinglish translation of the Owner's Manuals that came on the 750 and 550 Fours that did not get 'caught' until the 750F2 came out: it resulted in the mis-translation that became, generically, "use 10w40 oil". This "absolute minimum spec" (that was Honda's stated intent) was also cast onto the oil dipsticks of the 500/550 engines (and many Twins of the era) as Honda's last-stop-hope to prevent riders from using straight 30w or lighter oils. What it MEANT to say, in proper Japanese, was, "[never] use LESS than 10w40 oil". Those of us who, by then, had many tens of thousands of miles on our Fours knew this for the error it was: today most of that tribal knowledge is gone, and the later incarnations of motorcycles with water-cooled cylinders, fuel injection to control engine temps, and better metal alloys have made the later bikes all happy with the lighter oils (and confused newer riders who are just now coming to these older bikes). Your 1960s-designed Four needs 20w50 oil unless you never run over 50 MPH and/or have an oil cooler: then it might survive both with 20w40 oil. For example: I have seen engines from the East Coast (US) with 30k miles on them that barely needed new rings, and those mostly from sitting the last 20+ years: the reason is because the owners live in areas where the highest speed limit is 55 MPH, even today. Those bikes seldom, if ever, needed the protection of the 50w at high engine temps, as the engines never got that loaded. Many used 20w40 oils from Bel-Ray, Castrol, Valvoline, or Havoline with acceptable results, except where their valve guides wore too much and made the engine leak or burn oil. Those who used 20w50 oils fared far better.

Here in the West, I ride 80-90MPH every time I hit the interstate, lest I be run over from behind. When I had my shop, it was in rural Illinois near Missouri, and we seldom rode less than 65 MPH on any road. Between there and here (in Colorado) there is nothing but open roads and high speeds, so anything less than 20w50 will cause issues of oil breakdown in these engines, quickly (i.e., with petroleum-based oils). Modern synthetics do have longer chain molecules that can abide in these temperatures, but that's a different topic and one left for engineering and experimentation to fit to these engines: what we know from experience is that 10w40 petroleum is too light for these engines in summertime. I used to use the old Castrol GTX{L series} motorcycle oils in the 1970s in 10w50 for winter riding (so it would start easier), but that's the only time it worked OK.

:)

As for the startup: if your oil pump's check valve works as it should, chances are the oil light will extinguish well before the engine starts (electric start) or at the end of the first kick (kick starter), anyway. If it doesn't do this, then the check valve is leaking the oil back from the oil galley through the oil filter, and this needs to be fixed. It means you're losing flow and pressure when running, too. The oil galleys to the head stay full all the time, so as soon as the kickstart gear moves, it is a solid fluid column all the way to the cam bearing squirt. When I rebuild engines I connect them to an oil tank and spin it until it fills these galleys, monitoring the progress by leaving the cam cover off as the last assembly step (yep, it can make a mess...). Once full, turning even the big crankshaft nut by the points (with a wrench) by hand will make oil drool out the cam bearings.

;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #391 on: November 13, 2014, 09:44:12 PM »

What's that stuff cost, Greg? I've not seen that, only their "Golden" kind before. The way synthetics seem to find their way out of the paper gaskets in these engines, I tend to shy away from them despite their good performance.

Good morning, Mark. It ain't cheap, about 8 bucks a quart these days.  Sometimes the liter size is on the shelf for the same price.  But I never change it before 3000 miles, with a filter change every other change. 

From Spectro's FAQ page on their heavy duty oils -

What is the zinc content, if any in your HD motorcycle oil SAE 50?

Answer:
All of our HD oils (HD20w50, HD25w60, HD50, HD60, HD70) contain 1800ppm zinc (zddp) and phosphorus.

http://www.spectro-oils.com/technical-data/faq/

I noticed their higher zinc content last Fall when I was cruising their site for info: that's a lot better than many other oils out there. I didn't realize those were synthetics when I was looking at them, though. Pretty cool! I'll go look around here for some of that when my next change comes up on my F1 bike. I'm REAL happy now with the EXL feeling like good ol' XLR in my K2 now, it feels so much like "the old days" that I am reveling in that after almost 10 years of lousy oils. It's been a blast to start to kick it and have it running before the kick lever is halfway down, just like the "old days" used to be. It's been troubled solely by the 'new' oils since I woke it back up in 2005 after the cancer-caused "time out" of 5 years. Now I am 100% sure of that.

Here's a thought: you've mentioned a come-and-go oil leak (or weep) on your "F" before. Could it be caused by the synthetic? I know that was a problem with the two I have when I ran the Mobil1 (diesel formulation). On the K2, it stopped the weeping almost everywhere when I switched away from synthetic to petroleum again (except the cam cover gasket). On the "F" it still leaks around the head gasket, now with petro oils.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Ravie

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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #392 on: November 14, 2014, 05:41:32 AM »

?  That doesn't answer my question. HM is using 20w50 in a fresh rebuild on his SOHC. I'm curious why such a heavy oil in a fresh tight engine when lighter weights would seem to me to give adequate protection and tax the oil pump less, in theory.

The Bel-Ray you bought and used also comes in a 10w40. I'd be tempted personally to use that. 20w50 is going to starve for longer periods of time on startup, for one thing.

I'm not here to make any judgments, I'm really just curious.

Hmm...this sounds a little like inexperience? First thing: Honda's recommendation is 20w50 above 50 degrees F (ambient air) operation, and/or for touring use: check any of the OEM Honda manuals and you will find this spec. They consider commuting on freeways as touring use, too.



;)

Oh for sure. I know oils pretty well but this being my first go round with any sort of motorcycle, my inexperience lies in the realm of motorcycles rather than oil. I likened this motor to my Corvair engine since that is my experience in air cooled motors, and 20w50 would have starved the heads for several seconds on startup, but then that engine had pushrods where the sohc engines do not. Big difference now that I think about it.

I see we have a local dealer with the full line of Bel-Ray oils, as well as several other popular brands.

Anyone tried the Mobil 1 racing 4T in their bike?


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1975 CB750K5 Rebuild in progress.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=139072.0

Offline mihai.i

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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #393 on: November 14, 2014, 06:22:43 AM »
Honda Cb550k 1978

Offline ofreen

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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #394 on: November 14, 2014, 11:32:13 AM »
Here's a thought: you've mentioned a come-and-go oil leak (or weep) on your "F" before. Could it be caused by the synthetic? I know that was a problem with the two I have when I ran the Mobil1 (diesel formulation). On the K2, it stopped the weeping almost everywhere when I switched away from synthetic to petroleum again (except the cam cover gasket). On the "F" it still leaks around the head gasket, now with petro oils.

The Spectro oil I am using is a conventional or 'mineral' oil.  I agree with you about synthetics and leaks with an old engine's gaskets and seals.  We had a discussion about it on the highest mileage thread a while back.  Found it -

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=6895.msg1022043#msg1022043


Anyone tried the Mobil 1 racing 4T in their bike?


See the link above for my experience with Mobil 1 4T in the 750.  I use Mobil 1 in my '90 CBR1000F with excellent results.
Greg
'75 CB750F

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Offline Stev-o

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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #395 on: November 14, 2014, 04:33:14 PM »
On the K2, it stopped the weeping almost everywhere when I switched away from synthetic to petroleum again

The Spectro oil I am using ...

 We had a discussion about it on the highest mileage thread a while back.  Found it -

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=6895.msg1022043#msg1022043



That guy is a legend, Spectro oil must be the best.
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline ofreen

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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #396 on: November 14, 2014, 05:36:24 PM »
That guy is a legend, Spectro oil must be the best.

I don't know about the guy, but the bike impresses the hell out of me. ;)
Greg
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #397 on: November 14, 2014, 06:01:37 PM »
Anyone tried Motul Classic Car line?
http://motul.speclube.com/products/all-products/classic-oil-20w50-2l/

Mihai, Motul is not that easy to find in USA - probably nobody tried it.
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Offline edwardmorris

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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #398 on: November 14, 2014, 07:48:34 PM »
Not sure if its the same but I think Gordon uses Motul 7100 10W-40, and had some good things to say about it.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!
« Reply #399 on: November 14, 2014, 08:02:34 PM »
Anyone tried Motul Classic Car line?
http://motul.speclube.com/products/all-products/classic-oil-20w50-2l/

Now, THERE's a good idea! It meets the old SF/CC spec, which is precisely what Honda calls for in the k2 and later 750, and the 1973 and later 550/350F/400F manuals. It has anti-foaming additives, plating additives (aka ZDDP), and an anti-oxidant (the "CC" spec) just like the older oils from Valvoline, Havoline, Castrol, and a few others that worked well.

It was the notorious (and short-lived) "SH" spec when things went so badly wrong for these bikes, now we are at SJ and counting. The old "CC" spec was one of the first for diesels, also used for turbo engines.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com