Author Topic: Piston speed vs. valve train vs. redline  (Read 2302 times)

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Offline Turbogrimace

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Piston speed vs. valve train vs. redline
« on: June 05, 2013, 03:46:00 AM »
What fails first in a stroker motor?  I was looking at the piston speeds of a stock crank at 10krpm vs a +6 mm stroker crank.  Piston speeds at 10krpm on a stock stroke are already pretty darn high at 21 m/s (~4100 FPM).  Speed at 10krpm for the 6 mm stroker is 23 m/s (~4500 FPM). 

Those of you with big bore stroker engines, do you drop the redline or can a set of heavy duty rods (carrillos, goldens, etc) handle the speeds and G-forces seen at 10K?  What about ring flutter and sealing issues at those speeds?  Or is the valve train still the weakest point with respect to RPM?

The reason I am interested is because I was considering the benefits of destroking a crank to allow for higher rpm and less piston speed.  But if the valve train is still the limiting factor, destroking wouldnt really be all too smart for reliable power development.

Many modern bikes employ an oversquare design with stroke ratios around 1.2 to 1.5 and up.  They develop great power vs. size at high rpm.  But aftermarket still provides stroker systems for these little zingers.  So what's the secret... Hmmmm.  CB750's are stock square-bore engines, kind of the middle of the road.  Larger pistons gets you closer to the modern oversquare designs, but then the addition of a stroker knocks you right back down to the original square design.

With these old engines, is it best to just move the power down in rpm by stroking the crank, or is there potential for reliable high spinning power development?

Offline bear

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Re: Piston speed vs. valve train vs. redline
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2013, 06:06:03 AM »
All good questions and there are certainly people on this forum much more qualified to offer an opinion other than I.
I'm just a boofhead road racer. ;)
Yes the top of both your HP and Toque curves are lower in the rev range with a stroked motor.
But that sits well with the characteristics of these motors.
Yes these motors are Jap in line four cylinder four strokes, but unlike their later model cousins they have two valve heads and slipper bearings. Neither of these traits lend them selves to a high revving motor in my opinion.
For their age the strong point for these motors is their ability to handle relatively high cylinder pressure. Their just a tuff motor.
Trying to chase HP through engine revs is just pushing the old girls out off their comfort zone.
We try to reduce ring flutter and piston skirt loads by running longer rods.


Cheers,
Brian

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« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 06:58:08 AM by bear »
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Offline Turbogrimace

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Re: Piston speed vs. valve train vs. redline
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2013, 07:27:29 AM »
bear, what is your ratio referring to? 

my thoughts on the subject are similar to yours.

Offline bear

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Re: Piston speed vs. valve train vs. redline
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2013, 07:41:00 AM »
bear, what is your ratio referring to? 

Sorry mate the ratio I was referring to was conrod length vs stroke not stroke vs bore.

Cheers,
Brian
 
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 08:22:18 PM by bear »
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Offline Turbogrimace

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Re: Piston speed vs. valve train vs. redline
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2013, 08:44:01 AM »
That's what I thought, but i didnt want to assume.

Offline jweeks

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Re: Piston speed vs. valve train vs. redline
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2013, 10:40:12 AM »
I'm running a +6mm crank with aftermarket steel rods in an 1180cc configuration. Shift at 10,500. Compression about 11:1. Air through the ported F head limits power. Thinking of another +3mm on the 900F crank through APE and a little more compression with relocated intake ports and 1100F length Carrillos. I'm easy on the motor due to the torque converter. Drivetrain shock with a clutch is what tires out the components. Just my opinion. :)

Offline Turbogrimace

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Re: Piston speed vs. valve train vs. redline
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2013, 03:38:42 AM »
bear, what rod ratio do you guys typically run? 

Stock is about 1.84, which is pretty high, small rod angles. 

Typical 69 mm stroke w/ compensated rods is around 1.60 and running a full CB900 rod/crank setup is about 1.70.  All bouncing around that general sweet spot of 1.75.  a 7.5 mm spacer is easy enough to hide :)


*Edited because I got my CB900 rod length wrong.  I believe they are 117.5 mm.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 04:29:28 AM by Turbogrimace »

Offline bear

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Re: Piston speed vs. valve train vs. redline
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2013, 05:31:20 AM »
A smidge over 1.7.
But we use the CB1100 rods.
You can't achieve that with the 900 rods.
Depending compression ratio, we use spacers between 3 & 4.5mm

Cheers,
Brian
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 05:52:13 AM by bear »
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Offline Turbogrimace

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Re: Piston speed vs. valve train vs. redline
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2013, 06:37:40 AM »
I thought the 1100 and 900 rods were the same length.  Using a CB900 crank (69 mm) and 900 rods (117.5) you're at 1.70.

Offline bear

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Re: Piston speed vs. valve train vs. redline
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2013, 08:08:46 PM »
I'm happy to be corrected, my poor old memory ant what it used to be. :-[
We use the 1100 rods rather than the 900 because they run a 17mm gudgeon instead of the 15mm with the 900 and I think they are a mil longer giving a ratio of 1.72 .
They are also a stronger rod.
As I said that's off the top of my head now you've got me worried, I will check the book when get out to the workshop.

Cheers,
Brian
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 11:51:22 PM by bear »
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Offline mec

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Re: Piston speed vs. valve train vs. redline
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2013, 11:28:06 PM »
I'm happy to be corrected, my poor old memory ant what it used to be. :-[
We use the 1100 rods rather than the 900 because they run a 17mm gudgeon instead of the 14mm with the 900 and they are a mil longer giving a ratio of 1.72 .

will make you happy one more time: 15mm, not 14  :)

mec
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Offline bear

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Re: Piston speed vs. valve train vs. redline
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2013, 12:00:57 AM »
Thinking of another +3mm on the 900F crank through APE and a little more compression with relocated intake ports and 1100F length Carrillos.

Jon,
I have acquired a set of Falicon rods.
You can get them in a "bolt down" configuration, could be handy with the clearance issues we have discussed previously.

Cheers,
Brian
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Offline bear

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Re: Piston speed vs. valve train vs. redline
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2013, 12:04:13 AM »
I'm happy to be corrected, my poor old memory ant what it used to be. :-[
We use the 1100 rods rather than the 900 because they run a 17mm gudgeon instead of the 14mm with the 900 and they are a mil longer giving a ratio of 1.72 .

will make you happy one more time: 15mm, not 14  :)

mec

Corrected

Cheers,
Brian
The older I get the faster I was.