Author Topic: '74 CB550K smoking after warmed up and power loss  (Read 1272 times)

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Offline onusx

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'74 CB550K smoking after warmed up and power loss
« on: June 04, 2013, 06:33:48 PM »
Hi it's my first bike and 1st thread here, and i've been going through it for the past 9 months restoring it to a daily rider after it sat for 3 years. at this point i'm pretty ok with how it rides, and while it has some inconsistencies, it's getting me to and from work every day, a short commute generally at under 50mph.

the issue i have happens above that speed-- if i get up to highway speeds for any sustained amount of time, when i come back to idle at a light or whatever, the bike has started smoking from the tailpipe. i've researched other threads about smoke, and this isn't condensation, and it's not black smoke that would suggest running rich. it's not excessive, but i notice it, since the bike doesn't smoke at all under moderate use at lower speeds. i'm guessing from what i've read that it's oil smoke (mostly white, but it's more on the gray side than black, maybe bluish, and smells like a lawnmower.) because it happens after the bike warms up i'm thinking it's a piston ring issue, moreso than valve guides. it doesn't smoke at start, even if i leave it on the side stand. if anyone can confirm that i'm probably looking at a piston ring problem, that would be great. it seems intermittent-- sometimes it's barely noticeable, other times it acts up more, but the common factor seems to be really getting the bike warmed up at higher speed.

in addition, i sometimes experience a power loss after i run the bike above 50mph in 5th gear for anything other than a very brief amount of time-- e.g. if i get on the highway and get up to 70, i sometimes experience what almost feels like a sagging/stuttering, like if i were running into a heavy intermittent headwind; a couple times this has happened, when i pull off at an exit, i need to give increasing throttle to keep the bike from stalling, and downshifting to a stop causes the bike to die. i think that this has been a fuel/petcock/carburetion issue, but wanted to know if that symptom could be connected to the smoke issue.

over the weekend i rode it 40 miles at highway speeds round trip, and monitored the smoke and power situation. it only takes a little bit, 5-10 minutes, of running in 5th gear at rpms higher than 4k, to bring out the tailpipe smoke. the annoying thing is that up until that first time i come to idle, the bike feels fantastic-- pulls strong through the gears, has plenty to give in 5th, and will keep accelerating above 80mph with no complaints. but if i sustain it like that for just a few minutes, it starts to feel boggy or lugged at times, and when i stop, the smoke is noticeable. today i took it out on the road just long enough to get the smoke started, and returned home at lower speeds for 10 miles. by the time i got home the smoke was still there, but pretty negligible.

if i do have a piston ring problem, is there anything i can do to help this, short of rebuilding the top end? how can i tell if the bike is safe to ride for the time being?

also, could my fuel economy and power issues be related to the smoking problem? or do they suggest issues with carb settings, jetting, petcock crud, or etc?

thanks for any help, and thanks for this great site. it's been a huge help in getting the bike running.

here is everything i know about the bike and what i've done to it so far:
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mostly stock engine aside from the 4-1 exhaust installed by PO. has baffle, he thinks MAC, i don't know.
stock airbox with foam air filter
carbs are 022a
i've thoroughly cleaned carbs and that includes emulsion tubes, replacing jets with same sizes as were installed (38 pilot jets and 100 mains), float bowls, vents, and everything i could reach. used carb cleaner, compressed air, and verified all holes, vents, and passages were clear with compressed air, small guitar string, and holding all jets, tubes, air screws, etc to a light (i.e. i checked by both sight and feel that passages were clear and clean.)
needle clip in position #3 (middle.) initially was in #4 (2 from the bottom) and i was rapidly carbon fouling spark plugs, so i moved the clips to 3 to try to lean out-- someone suggested i might have this backwards? i'm assuming the closer the clip is to the bottom of the needle, the higher it will raise when throttle is opened, and the more fuel will flow as a result.
set floats to 22mm using float gauge.
again, 38 slow/pilot jets and 100 mains in the carbs now
new battery, cleaned all electrical terminals, and bike charges correctly and holds charge
PO installed Dyna S ignition
set ignition timing both statically and double checked with timing light
adjusted valves at first to manual specs, then went back and loosened tolerance to .003 and .004 per hondaman specs
changed oil and filter (20-50 motorcycle oil)
synced carbs with morgan carb tune after other adjustments (again, done this a couple times, after tweaks and things.) vacuum is around 22, all 4.
checked compression with harbor freight compression tester. a little on the low side (about 115) but consistent between all 4 cylinders.
checked for good spark and replaced 4x spark plugs with NGKD7, gapped per manual
adjusted drive chain tension
adjusted cam chain tension
spark plugs look "good" but i haven't done a plug chop at the speeds that are giving me problems.
bike kick starts easily and idles at 1000rpm. it creeps up as it warms up, but then i just back the idle screw down.
i haven't replaced or oiled the air filter but had a couple biker friends look at it and was told it looks fine.
air mixture screws at 3/4 turn out currently. the bike actually runs fine with the screws completely closed. at stock 1.5 turns out, the throttle is sluggish and sags when blipped/snapped.
bike is either very high or very low miles: has been continuously registered in oregon since at least the late 70s, and odometer reads 05051. So either it was a barely ridden summer toy, or it's got 100k+ on it. doesn't seem excessively worn, or abused, but i don't know much else about it.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 02:20:04 PM by onusx »

Offline onusx

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Re: '74 CB550K smoking after warmed up and power loss
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2013, 01:57:41 PM »
well, update: took it out last night on some back roads and did a plug chop. looks like i'm running lean in the upper ranges (insulator was white, looked like the hot pics on the plug charts.) it also pops a bit on deceleration, which i'm reading would support the idea that it's lean? i also did a top speed run, and the bike topped out a little above 90 on flat ground, which didn't seem quite right to me, as i've had it faster in the past. shortly after i had it up there, it started to crap out and lose power, as i've experienced before. i pulled down a side road, slowed to around 30, and the bike caught back up-- felt like it was running out of fuel, like basically when i'm holding it at WOT the fuel flow can't keep up.

so a question: is that due to the jetting not being able to supply fuel fast enough? i was planning to try going up to 105 main jets from 100. or am i actually emptying the float bowls faster than the fuel line is filling them? in which case should i against suspect the petcock? i've cleaned the petcock, and fuel seems to flow freely, but on the main setting, it's not even-- one side flows fine and the other is a trickle at times. on reserve, fuel flows evenly on both sides. is there a problem with just using the reserve setting all the time? if i've confirmed that the part of the petcock that screws into the tank, and the filter, are clean and clear of debris, is the petcock itself damaged or bent?

after my 35-40 mile test ride yesterday, i met some friends for dinner for a couple hours. when i came back out, the bike started fine, as usual, and i headed home, a quick jump on the highway for 5 miles. and the bike did the same thing it has in the past with the power loss-- felt great until i got it up to 60-70 and rode it there for a couple miles, a kind of windy, slightly uphill stretch, but nothing crazy. as i pulled off to my exit, the engine began to die again-- sounding like someone threw a blanket over it, or like there was a 2nd muffler added... power dropped fast and i had to hold the throttle wide open to get to a stop sign, at which point the bike died. thinking this was the same fuel issue i was having earlier, i let it sit for a minute, but i couldn't get the bike started again. tried both main and reserve tank settings, but nothing worked. i had to push it the last few blocks home. this morning the bike starts right up again and rides as well as it did yesterday.

am i chasing the same issue here, or do i have multiple problems going on?
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 02:27:40 PM by onusx »

Offline onusx

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Re: '74 CB550K smoking after warmed up and power loss
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2013, 02:10:52 PM »
here's a photo of the bike, btw. i have pics of the work i've done along the way as well.

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: '74 CB550K smoking after warmed up and power loss
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2013, 06:31:57 PM »
If you are running lean you can run it hot enough to melt the piston which can transfer to cylinder walls causing it to begin siezing the piston. 
Not smart to keep pushing the bike to the breakdown point repeatedly without understanding what is happening to cause it.

Air leaks around intake boots or orkng on intake to head can contribute to your lean running. Check your orings and intake boots for leak with carb cleaner or wd40 when it exhibits symptoms. Spray and if it affects running, then you have a leak. Old hard boots or leaking ones need replaced.
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline onusx

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Re: '74 CB550K smoking after warmed up and power loss
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2013, 07:50:26 PM »
thanks very much for the reply. i did check the boots for leaks and it's good there on both sides of the carbs (air box and engine side).

which o-rings are you referring to? i sprayed all around the carbs generally with carb cleaner to check for leaks and didn't find any, and i had previously chased down a leak at one of the float bowls.

do you think my power loss problems are due to overheating vs. a fuel issue? the bike does heat up fast-- but it doesn't seem to get significantly hotter when i run it faster. i definitely don't want to overdo it, so thanks for the advise. i'll try to address the lean condition before chasing down the smoking problem.

as far as fixing the mixture goes-- do you think i'd be better served by just dropping the needle one position, upping the size of the main jets, or both? i initially raised the needle while keeping the jetting stock because i was fouling plugs when i first got the bike running and it seemed too rich.

when it comes to the issue of it seeming to run out of fuel at top speed-- will increasing my main jet to enrich the WOT position help? or do i have a problem delivering enough fuel to the float bowls in the first place?

thanks again!


Offline w1sa

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Re: '74 CB550K smoking after warmed up and power loss
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2013, 11:57:54 PM »
Everything you describe points to a fuel delivery (starvation) problem....

Could be caused by vacuum lock (tank cap), in-tank filter clogging, petcock dirty/incorrect assembly, fuel line routing, fuel line and rail contamination, sticking float/valves , sediments etc.

Thoroughly check/clean from fuel tank-vent to the float needle/valve.....then flow test each with respective carb bowl removed.....then run test again....use 'clear tube' method to verify appropriate fuel level in bowls when/as  required during the clean/test procedures.

If it's fuel delivery issues you may have to re-adjust airscrew and main needles positions, once resolved


Offline Gman

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Re: '74 CB550K smoking after warmed up and power loss
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2013, 04:23:04 AM »
Do  you have inline fuel filters?  Sometimes those can be a culprit, although I don't know if your symptoms are typical to that issue.  Just one more variable to try to eliminate...

Good luck figuring it out. 

Cheers,
G
'76 CB550K
Stock airbox, MotoGPWerks 4-1, HondaMan ignition, Lesters

Offline onusx

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Re: '74 CB550K smoking after warmed up and power loss
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2013, 01:05:34 PM »
thanks all-- i don't have inline filters, but one thing i haven't done since getting the bike is clean/change fuel hoses or do the clear tube test to make sure the float bowls are all filled equally. i know fuel is getting to all four bowls and the float heights are set correctly, but not if it's actually getting delivered to the bowls evenly i guess.

what are the fuel "rails?"

i checked out the fuel cap and i think it's ok-- i can sometimes hear the tank "breathe" which i think means it's not vacuum locked, correct? but there could definitely be something up with the petcock. the bike got knocked over on its left side a few months ago and now i'm wondering the petcock got damaged.

when i swap carbs i'll go through the tank and all the fuel lines and make sure it's good. thanks for the help and i'll update about the fuel situation if this solves it or i discover anything.

can anyone speak to my other question about the smoking? i've read various things in other threads, from "a little smoke is normal," to "you definitely need to rebuild your top end." if the problem doesn't get any worse and i sort out my other problems (fuel delivery, lean,) can i assume the bike is safe for moderate riding for a season? i will probably do a more involved rebuild when it starts to get ugly out again. i'd love to do some of the performance upgrades anyway, and i'm sure it could use the attention.

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: '74 CB550K smoking after warmed up and power loss
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2013, 01:36:05 PM »
If you hear a whoosh or the like when opening your tank after the problem is happening you will know it is not venting correctly. Next time it starts acting up, open the gas cap right away to see if that has any affect. Pulling the choke could also help if it is a lean issue.

If it is smoking when you are having the problem and it is black smoke then you are rich, but you know this. It is difficult sometimes to tell what the smoke color is on the bike unless it is thick/dark.
The carbs are going to be rich at idle and it will lean out some at speed, but excessively lean will cause predetonation and other things that can damage your pistons, rods, crank, etc.

If it is too lean then raising the needle will enrich the mixture across the band.
Have you vacuum synced or bench synced the carbs?

You do know to keep a fan on the motor if running it sitting still trying to tune it with no load or just idling for extended periods?
David- back in the desert SW!