Topic: starter drains battery hard

[cheftuskey121]

Hey guys, another problem. since my cb750 rebuild, my electric start has not worked. I attributed this to a worn starter. my charging system is working fine. after hour and hour on the bike I can come home throw it on the charger and within one minute it is fully charged. well I finally got into my starting motor and replaced the old brushes. it now cranks the engine.....but wont start the bike. it is STILL a little sluggish, but most of all after about 10 seoncds of trying my battery is drained.

I have done some searching and reading and I conclude that I may still have a dirty starter motor and/or a short. I am not having any other shorts. the battery does not drain unless I touch that starter. I have a new RH switch from yamiya, I doubt it would be shorting at the button itself, but can check there.

battery is a scorpion battery with a fully charge, running perfect under riding conditions when I use kick. (would just like the option of electric start)

Just looking for possible guidance.

[reddyvv]

Not to be a wise a@@ but there is a procedure in the manual to check the starter for shorts. You can download it on this site if you don't have one. Seems like that may be your problem. You may also have a dirty armature that isn't making good contact with the brushes or needs cleaning between each contact. A little fine emery can help sometimes.

[nevernoluck]

I think you named two possible causes. The starter itself or switch most likely starter but one other option but yet sounds slight is are you sure about the battery? Does it handle the load, I've seen many batteries with good voltage but not the amperage especially with a load, just my .02. Surely someone will correct me

[nevernoluck]

 yep corrected as I was posting

[cheftuskey121]

the battery is good at all stages of operation. I couldn't find that section in the manual previously. the pdf file doesnt have a table of contents etc so I have to literally search through 1000 pages. found the section though! will have to do a few tests I suppose. really looking if anyone had the same problem as a confirmation though, I like reading about similar problems and fixes before I take my bike back off the road. old school bike...old school kick

[reddyvv]

yep corrected as I was posting

I don't quite understand what you mean there. But nevernoluck has a good point, may be just your battery. If you have a heavily sulfated battery it will often charge full in no time at all as it can't hold much charge anyway even though the voltage may be right.

[cheftuskey121]

I wasn't saying that the battery charges fast. right now it is taking forever to recharge after I just drained it with the starter. I was saying I know the charging system is fine (no shorts) because after long rides I can throw it on the charger and confirm my battery is charged (system is workin fine). it was just a piece of side information to rule that part out.

I read a thread where dirt inside the starter was causing a short and taxing the battery heavily. I pulled the starter apart to replace the brushes but didnt do much cleaning (didnt read about that before) and am curious if anyone has had that problem. I feel like thats the issue. maybe a new working starter motor is in order? then troubleshoot from there I suppose if its still acting up. eliminate my starter altogether

[Vinhead1957]

If it kicks over normally everything points to the starter itself! It is possible the started solenoid is shorting some of the current meant for the starter. Double  check the Main ground on the engine mount, clean grounds

[cheftuskey121]

Hey Vin, that was my first suspicion! super clean main ground. gonna source a new starter, ha. anyone offer a rebuild so I dont get a "new" cruddy one

[Nic]

What's the AH rating of your batt. Should be at least 14AH.

[cheftuskey121]

Nic, it is. its this guy http://www.batterystuff.com/powersports-batteries/sYTX14AHL-BS.html

[reddyvv]

I wasn't saying that the battery charges fast. right now it is taking forever to recharge after I just drained it with the starter. I was saying I know the charging system is fine (no shorts) because after long rides I can throw it on the charger and confirm my battery is charged (system is workin fine). it was just a piece of side information to rule that part out.

I read a thread where dirt inside the starter was causing a short and taxing the battery heavily. I pulled the starter apart to replace the brushes but didnt do much cleaning (didnt read about that before) and am curious if anyone has had that problem. I feel like thats the issue. maybe a new working starter motor is in order? then troubleshoot from there I suppose if its still acting up. eliminate my starter altogether

No fun buying a new starter motor when you can spend a few hours or days fixing it with the help of the forum 

But seriously why don't you troubleshoot it first? Check for shorts and all the other suggestions and make sure your armature is nice and shiny and grime free so it has good contact with the brushes. Always good to do anyway if you are replacing brushes.

[bryanj]

Souds like a bad battery to me

[cheftuskey121]

Souds like a bad battery to me

if it was a bad battery would I not have other problems, like low output, consistent battery drain? I have never used electric start until today, and have had no battery issues until today, even after hours of riding. if it were the battery then i think it would have reared its head already. I have another "acid style" battery to try and will check with that though to see. I wish I would have read about cleaning the WHOLE starter instead of just replacing brushes....always learning something new

[Nic]

Nic, it is. its this guy http://www.batterystuff.com/powersports-batteries/sYTX14AHL-BS.html

Cheers mate, so we can eliminate that but could still be a dud batt, once you ask it to work hard it just won't. Not sayin it is dud but don't rule it out just coz it's new. Sometimes it's the simply things, I'd think if you're starter is bung it would either work right or not. If it turns over the way it should but then the batt dies it sounds like battery.

[bryanj]

Nope, you can have a battery that will charge and hold volts but not give a decent power output. A battery shop should have a high drain tester to check out how good it is

[cheftuskey121]

that would be a bummer, this has one of the highest cranking amps I could buy too.

[Nic]

Back in the 70's you bought the good ol acid filled batteries and never had a drama.

[cheftuskey121]

well I just tried with two car batteries (engine off of course!) and nothing. I could get the bike to start by kicking it. all electronics worked fine. when I hit the button it clicked once and whined. can't be two jacked up car batteries in cars that run everyday just fine. plus they have heaps of cranking amps. I have  new solenoid but its not OEM. curious if thats holding me up. the old one just clicked and whined too though in December when I got it running for the first time.

[Nic]

well I just tried with two car batteries (engine off of course!) and nothing. I could get the bike to start by kicking it. all electronics worked fine. when I hit the button it clicked once and whined. can't be two jacked up car batteries in cars that run everyday just fine. plus they have heaps of cranking amps. I have  new solenoid but its not OEM. curious if thats holding me up. the old one just clicked and whined too though in December when I got it running for the first time.

Clicked and whined? Can you explain the whine a bit more, is the starter gear behind the rotor forked?
You might want to check your regulator and recto now that you've hiot em with car batteries.

[cheftuskey121]

yes, sounded like the solenoid clicking, and then whining. its done it many time with my old motorcycle battery. there is nothing wrong with hooking up a car battery with it off and in the correct polarity. 12V is 12V, the bike uses what it needs to use and nothing more. with my scorpion battery back in there it is back to turning the motor over but not enough to start it. I am going to find a new starter to drop in in the near future and see if that works. if not then this bike was just meant to be kicked

[Nic]

yes, sounded like the solenoid clicking, and then whining. its done it many time with my old motorcycle battery. there is nothing wrong with hooking up a car battery with it off and in the correct polarity. 12V is 12V, the bike uses what it needs to use and nothing more. with my scorpion battery back in there it is back to turning the motor over but not enough to start it. I am going to find a new starter to drop in in the near future and see if that works. if not then this bike was just meant to be kicked

I tried to find it in Hondaman's book but couldn't, something about car batts putting out 14 Vs and either the reg or recto not liking it, anyway, you'll find out soon enough if there's damage. Why not take out the starter motor and just hook it up to the car batt n see what happens, that'll tell you straight away if the thing's ok. Actually now I think I remember, he reckons NOT to jump your bike with a car when the car is idling as it can put out 14Vs, so you'll likely be good. Take out the starter n see how it likes the car batt on it's own. Just put the lead on + and the body of the starter on the -

[nevernoluck]

Yes with a car running it would put out around 13.6 to 14ish, that may be of concern but don't know, most car batteries full charged is around 12.6. Don't know if that's too much running, have to research that. The more I read on this post it sounds like solenoid or starter, my opinion.

N

[trueblue]

WTF, car battery or bike battery are exactly the same thing, just the car battery has more amps to give, which won't be given unless the bike asks for it.  If you replaced the brushes without cleaning the armature that is the most likely cause of your issue.  Pull the starter to pieces, get rotor and put it in the chuck of a drill press or a lathe.  If you can get it in a lathe you need to take as light a cut as possible off the armature with an extremely sharp HSS tool.  Don't use carbide tips, they are too blunt.  If you only have a drill press, get a flat file and hold it up to the armature till it is nice and flat.  Once the armature is clean you need to clean out between the segments to prevent shorts.  There will be carbon built up in there from the worn out old brushes and shavings of copper from the clean up process.  For this I use an old broken hacksaw blade.  Make sure the grooves are spotlessly clean.  If you do this properly I would be surprised if it doesn't work correctly .

[cheftuskey121]

Thanks true blue that's the kind of info I was looking for. Probably didn't clean it well. Unfortunately I don't have the tools to do that, so I may be looking for a rebuild of some kind. May get an oem solenoid too to be safe. Anyone know of an aftermarket starter or someone who does a full rebuild? For the time being ill get my leg workout

[bollingball]

trueblue +10 You just need to clean up the starter just new brushes will not do. Forget the battery If you are not up to it where you live will have a ton of starter rebuild shops they will clean it up check bearing or bushing and have it back in a day or two. Then you can be doing other things. But take it off for them. Hit the yellow pages. Now if you want to do it. On larger starters I use a hacksaw blade trimmed down on a bench grinder. These are small and a sharp pick works good to clean out the grooves a big rubber eraser works to shine everything up and some brake clean to wash it off. Then you have to see how much it wobbles in the old end caps. Then check it electrically The shop has everything and can do it faster.

EDIT Looks like you posted while I was typing.

Ken
 

[nevernoluck]

+1 on the big eraser trick

[trueblue]

Thanks true blue that's the kind of info I was looking for. Probably didn't clean it well. Unfortunately I don't have the tools to do that, so I may be looking for a rebuild of some kind. May get an oem solenoid too to be safe. Anyone know of an aftermarket starter or someone who does a full rebuild? For the time being ill get my leg workout

No worries mate, if I was a little closer I would do it for you for a 6 pack, but by the time you shipped it here and back it would be cheaper for you to buy a brand spanker.  If you don't have the gear to do it find a good auto leccy locally.  I'm sure someone nearby should be able to do it for you fairly cheaply .