Author Topic: Pamco 1/4 Different Than 2/3  (Read 9028 times)

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Offline HotCarl73

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Pamco 1/4 Different Than 2/3
« on: June 15, 2013, 07:16:40 PM »
i installed the pamco ultimate kit on my 750 K3 today. when i hook the timing light up to the #4 wire the timing is spot on on the 1-4 F. when i move the timing light to the #3 wire the timing is about halfway between the 2-3 T and F. i think that means that the 2-3 side is slightly advanced. i don't think the pamco has and independent adjustment for each set of coils. the advance seems to be working fine on both sides. it's not much of a difference from the 1-4 side to the 2-3 side. any idea what might be causing this? i also spent about an hour today syncing my carbs (just messing with the adjustments trying to match them all perfectly, it's hopeless) so i learned to tell myself to stop screwing with stuff, it's close enough. is my timing discrepancy close enough, or should i try to fix it? and what should i look at if it needs to be fixed? the bike sounds like it's running fine. thanks for any opinions.
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Offline brandEn

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Re: Pamco 1/4 Different Than 2/3
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2013, 09:52:50 PM »
subscribed.
TAO is like that as well.

You ever looked up "hot carl" in the urban dictionary?
« Last Edit: June 15, 2013, 09:56:32 PM by brandEn »

Offline HotCarl73

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Re: Pamco 1/4 Different Than 2/3
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2013, 11:59:22 PM »
yup. even got it past the department of motor vehicle censors to get the vanity plate in my avatar. my name is carl so that helped. ;)
1973 Honda CB750 Flake Sunrise Orange
1974 Honda CB750 Flake Sunrise Orange (In Pieces)
1995 Ural Tourist
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Offline brandEn

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Re: Pamco 1/4 Different Than 2/3
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2013, 12:34:02 AM »
yup. even got it past the department of motor vehicle censors to get the vanity plate in my avatar. my name is carl so that helped. ;)

HAHA!!!!

that makes it even better. classic...

Offline HotCarl73

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Re: Pamco 1/4 Different Than 2/3
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2013, 10:00:47 AM »
i started using it as my screen name and email when i was 24 or something. i thought it was funny. now that i'm 40 and had to put it on my mortgage application, it's losing its charm. but oh well, i would have to change my whole life to change it now. maybe when i'm 80?

anybody have any thoughts on my timing issue?
1973 Honda CB750 Flake Sunrise Orange
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1995 Ural Tourist
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Offline danfr

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Re: Pamco 1/4 Different Than 2/3
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2013, 10:02:21 AM »
Hey hot carl,

I've noticed the same thing on my 750. Here's an email that I send Pamco Pete:

"Hey Pete,

I installed your ignition system in my 1974 CB750 today. I followed all the directions to a tee but I noticed that the timing appears to be off. How the advance plate is set up, I can get 1.4 to fire bang on but then 2.3 seems to be retarded. Alternatively, if I get 2.3 bang on, 1.4 will be advance.

Have you had any issues in the past about ignition timing being slightly off like this?

Thanks

Dan F.
Victoria, BC
"

And the response:

"Dan,
 
There may be a small difference in the timing between the cylinders but that will not affect the operation of the engine. You can either split the difference or very gently lift the sensor for your 2-3 gently off of the PC board so it will be closer to the magnets when they pass.
 
Pete
"

To be honest, it is very disappointing, to pay for the Ultimate Pamco Ignition kit and have it improperly set up right out of the box. I do not feel comfortable lifting the 2-3 sensor off the PC board nor do I believe I should. I would expected Pete to stand behind his product and replace it, but that never happened.
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Offline HotCarl73

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Re: Pamco 1/4 Different Than 2/3
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2013, 10:03:05 AM »
i'm following cheftuskey's thread http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=122946.0, but his issue is a little different.
1973 Honda CB750 Flake Sunrise Orange
1974 Honda CB750 Flake Sunrise Orange (In Pieces)
1995 Ural Tourist
2005 Honda 919

Offline HotCarl73

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Re: Pamco 1/4 Different Than 2/3
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2013, 10:06:41 AM »
danfr: thanks for the info. i don't want to go prying on anything either. i'm amazed i got it installed without blowing something up. i guess i'll just live with it.
1973 Honda CB750 Flake Sunrise Orange
1974 Honda CB750 Flake Sunrise Orange (In Pieces)
1995 Ural Tourist
2005 Honda 919

Offline danfr

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Re: Pamco 1/4 Different Than 2/3
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2013, 10:14:35 AM »
hmm, I just read the other thread. I wonder if there has been a bad batch of Pamco's or maybe we all have bad springs?
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74 CB750K
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Offline HotCarl73

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Re: Pamco 1/4 Different Than 2/3
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2013, 01:59:35 PM »
with my issue, i don't know how bad springs would cause it. if they were weak i think they would affect 1-4 and 2-3. when i first saw what was going on my first thought was to loosen the circuit board screw and try to move the 2-3 a little bit against or with rotation like you would with points. i decided not to mess with it. i was just in the garage and tried pulling the circuit board a bit with the engine running to see if it was making any change to the 2-3 timing. i didn't see any change, so i left it alone. it kinda sucks because the 1-4 is so perfect and steady. with the points it would fluctuate a bit. i was hoping the pamco would just be dead on everywhere and solid and never have to be messed with again. the main reason i bought it was because i was sick of fiddling with points. every time you'd get one thing perfect it would mess up everything else, and i'd just keep going back and forth. gap and timing perfect on 1-4, adjust 2-3 till it's perfect, check 1-4 and it's off, adjust till it's perfect, check 2-3 and it's off. i understand and i can do it, i just didn't want to anymore. the bike's running fine, just knowing that something's slightly out of whack under the points cover bothers me.
1973 Honda CB750 Flake Sunrise Orange
1974 Honda CB750 Flake Sunrise Orange (In Pieces)
1995 Ural Tourist
2005 Honda 919

Offline danfr

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Re: Pamco 1/4 Different Than 2/3
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2013, 03:56:35 PM »
Sounds like you're exactly where I'm at. And in retrospect, it couldn't be the springs as I was doing the static timing and it was off...

I wonder if anyone else has had this issue with Pamco's???
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Offline kmb69

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Re: Pamco 1/4 Different Than 2/3
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2013, 05:23:25 PM »
This can happen due to 5 main reasons but maybe more and is why Honda used a sub plate for 2-3.

1. The spark advancer shaft is not running true. Use an indicator to true the shaft. Be careful when reinstalling the advancer.
2. The "points" or electronic plate mounting counter bore is not perfectly aligned with the crankshaft. Manufacturing tolerances. Tough to fix.
3. The "points" or electronic plate mounting counter bore is not perfectly round or has too much clearance. Same as above. Not an easy fix.
4. The pickups on the plate are not exactly 180 degrees apart. Maybe fixable depending on pickup mounting design.
5. Some or all of the above.

You would think the aftermarket electronic guys could design an adjustable 2-3 pickup easy enough. Price would go up for sure.

"Dan,
 
There may be a small difference in the timing between the cylinders but that will not affect the operation of the engine. You can either split the difference or very gently lift the sensor for your 2-3 gently off of the PC board so it will be closer to the magnets when they pass.
 
Pete
"

Some BS here. It definitely makes a difference when the timing is not spot on. Affects power, smoothness, carb tune, engine noise, etc.

Offline chickenman_26

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Re: Pamco 1/4 Different Than 2/3
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2013, 12:50:20 AM »
You would think the aftermarket electronic guys could design an adjustable 2-3 pickup easy enough. Price would go up for sure.
Dyna on ebay. $117 and free shipping. Fully adjustable.
Quote
Some BS here. It definitely makes a difference when the timing is not spot on. Affects power, smoothness, carb tune, engine noise, etc.
Agreed. I talked to the guy when he first released the products for Honda twins and fours. I questioned him on the lack of adjustability and got the same arrogant answers and attitude - close enough for government work, and it won't make a difference. If close enough was what I was after, I'd have just left the points in there.

Stu
MCN DTF

Offline PeWe

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Re: Pamco 1/4 Different Than 2/3
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2013, 03:26:36 AM »
Subscribed to see more when I have one Ultimate to be installed. I hope my engine fulfill the mentioned 5 reasons of why.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline kmb69

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Re: Pamco 1/4 Different Than 2/3
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2013, 05:46:52 AM »
You would think the aftermarket electronic guys could design an adjustable 2-3 pickup easy enough. Price would go up for sure.
Dyna on ebay. $117 and free shipping. Fully adjustable.
Stu

Interesting. I never used a Dyna. Could not find one that cheap, got a link for the $117 item?

Offline HotCarl73

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Re: Pamco 1/4 Different Than 2/3
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2013, 08:21:59 AM »
1. The spark advancer shaft is not running true. Use an indicator to true the shaft. Be careful when reinstalling the advancer.

i think i have at least this one. i  can look at the end of the shaft and see it wobble a bit. if i can see it by eye it's probably pretty bad. i can pull the pamco off and put a dial indicator on it. i don't remember exactly how that shaft is mounted. can i get it off the engine? any idea how to go about truing it in place?
1973 Honda CB750 Flake Sunrise Orange
1974 Honda CB750 Flake Sunrise Orange (In Pieces)
1995 Ural Tourist
2005 Honda 919

Offline brandEn

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Re: Pamco 1/4 Different Than 2/3
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2013, 08:45:28 AM »
That shaft is threaded into the end of the crank. If your gonna take it off be careful not to snap it. I would use some vise grips clamped at the base. Double nutting it has never been good for me.

Offline kmb69

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Re: Pamco 1/4 Different Than 2/3
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2013, 09:17:50 AM »
1. The spark advancer shaft is not running true. Use an indicator to true the shaft. Be careful when reinstalling the advancer.

i think i have at least this one. i  can look at the end of the shaft and see it wobble a bit. if i can see it by eye it's probably pretty bad. i can pull the pamco off and put a dial indicator on it. i don't remember exactly how that shaft is mounted. can i get it off the engine? any idea how to go about truing it in place?

There is no need to remove it. Take the advancer off and indicate it in place. Gently tap it with a plastic hammer so as not to damage the threads to get it running true.

Offline BuffaloBill

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Re: Pamco 1/4 Different Than 2/3
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2013, 10:51:21 AM »
Mine was off by a couple degrees also.  I simply repossitioned one of the the hall sensor in the direction to bring its timing to match the other one.  I moved the sensor maybe 10-20 thousandths laterally.  It's a leaded component so I felt comfortable slightly bending the leads in the process.  Certainly, if I'd gotten wild about it and damaged a lead in the process, I wouldn't expect Pete to stand behind it.  I viewed this as an easy thing to correct w/o having the added complexity of a 2nd moveable plate.  I did remove the plate and advancer before repossitioing the sensor, then reassembled and checked with timing light.  It took me two interations to get it virtually spot-on.  I for one like the simplicity of Pete's design.

Offline Nikkisixx

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Re: Pamco 1/4 Different Than 2/3
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2013, 01:28:14 PM »
1. The spark advancer shaft is not running true. Use an indicator to true the shaft. Be careful when reinstalling the advancer.

i think i have at least this one. i  can look at the end of the shaft and see it wobble a bit. if i can see it by eye it's probably pretty bad. i can pull the pamco off and put a dial indicator on it. i don't remember exactly how that shaft is mounted. can i get it off the engine? any idea how to go about truing it in place?

There is no need to remove it. Take the advancer off and indicate it in place. Gently tap it with a plastic hammer so as not to damage the threads to get it running true.


More info on that here:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=34455.msg355662#msg355662

As for setting the timing - perhaps gaze upon this:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=113480.0;nowap
It is a proven fact that modifying a SOHC Honda in any way will bring on the apocalypse.

Offline Bailgang

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Re: Pamco 1/4 Different Than 2/3
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2013, 02:34:56 PM »
There is no need to remove it. Take the advancer off and indicate it in place. Gently tap it with a plastic hammer so as not to damage the threads to get it running true.

+1
 As long as you have a dial indicator it's easy peasy but that's what you have to keep ind mind because once you realize that it doesn't take much of a tap to true it you realize it's not going to take much to knock it back out either which is why it's important to be careful putting the advancer back on.
Scott


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Offline PeWe

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Re: Pamco 1/4 Different Than 2/3
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2013, 05:52:01 AM »
OK, no problem then. I remember an old thread where a similar problem was discussed:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=116585.msg1317418#msg1317418

* HondaMan *
Maybe also check the shaft that mounts the advancer, for concentricity. On the 750 in particular (bigger bores, more drag), folks who pull the big nut back & forth (with the sparkplugs in) when setting points timing inadvertently bend this shaft. This mostly affects the 2-3 timing due to the location of the little dowel that aligns the baseplate: when bent, the shaft cause the points cam to not be perpendicular to the engine. So, the 2-3 side becomes a little "late" compared to the 1-4 side timing when this happens. Removing the advancer and tapping the shaft straight again (using a dial indicator and SMALL hammer) fixes most of them right up.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline pamcopete

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Re: Pamco 1/4 Different Than 2/3
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2013, 10:32:36 AM »
Having the relative timing between the two cylinders exactly the same is not the only purpose of an electronic ignition. The PAMCO was designed as a low cost replacement for the points and as such it offers a number of features and benefits , among them reliability, hotter spark for easier starting and better performance and better gas mileage as well as the elimination of routine maintenance other than the mechanical advancer.

The PAMCO still has some of the limitations of points, however, commensurate with it's low cost, among them is the possibility of frying the coils if you leave the ignition on with the engine not running, as an example and it still uses the mechanical advancer.

Although you can spend a lot of time adjusting points to achieve near perfect timing with both cylinders, this perfection does not last very long as you have probably discovered. Although it is not easy to set the individual timing for each cylinder with the PAMCO, it can be done by gently bending the sensor up on the late (retarded) cylinder. Whatever degree of sameness that you achieve with the PAMCO timing of both cylinders, it will not change, so that is an advantage over points.

I have a '74 CB750F-4 and it has a PAMCO (of course) and the timing between the cylinders is not the same. I have made no attempt to adjust it either. It just doesn't make any difference in the operation of the engine and I have had it that way for a few years. When I offered this opinion on the forum, I was accused of being arrogant. Well, arrogance generally means that you have not experienced what the other person is talking about, but I have and I do not think it is a problem from my own actual experience riding the same model of bike as the members.

Keep in mind that the factory recommended method of timing the ignition is the static method using a test light! The factory thinks that method of timing and the resulting very different timing for the two cylinders is acceptable.

I also offer ignition systems for other models of Honda, including the CB450, CB350 and CB360 twins. I have just recently introduced a new product for these models that eliminates the mechanical advancer and has separate adjustable sensors for each cylinder. You can see this system on www.cb450ignition.com

I might then go ahead and build a system like this for the CB750 SOHC if there was any interest. I haven't done so yet because I personally do not see the need for it on the CB750 SOHC. (more arrogance!) The other Honda twins had other issues with their advancer, so the new system eliminates the advancer.

This new system for those Honda twins is $189.95. I don't think you can find another electronic ignition system for vintage Hondas for that price that has individual adjustable timing and electronic advance as well as a software automatic kill switch as well as some retardation of the spark at very slow engine speeds for easier starts and less dramatic kick starting.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 10:43:17 AM by pamcopete »

Offline HotCarl73

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Re: Pamco 1/4 Different Than 2/3
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2013, 01:32:54 PM »
i'll accept that it doesn't need to be perfect. but i'm just that kinda guy. the reason i got rid of the points is because i would spend an hour going back and forth till everything was perfect, only to find when i checked it a couple hundred miles later, that it was off again. i want to get it perfect and then have it stay that way for a long time. reading this and other threads about this kind of thing, i can interpret that the sensor has to be nudged either up or down, left or right, or toward or away from me when mounted on the bike. i'm not clear on which axis it needs to be moved. so... looking at the plate mounted on the bike, do i need to move the sensor up and down (with or against the direction of the shaft rotation), left and right (closer to or further from the shaft), or towards and away from me (make the sensor stand further off the plate or closer). my guess is the first one (with and against rotation). i just want to make sure, i don't want to mess with it any more than needed. i still plan to try truing the shaft first. i don't know if i'm gonna do it in place or not. is it regular threads or left handed?
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1974 Honda CB750 Flake Sunrise Orange (In Pieces)
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Offline kmb69

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Re: Pamco 1/4 Different Than 2/3
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2013, 01:46:27 PM »
................................... i still plan to try truing the shaft first. i don't know if i'm gonna do it in place or not. is it regular threads or left handed?

It is right handed. But if it is not leaking (has an o-ring), I would straighten it in place. That part, 30231-300-010  SHAFT, SPARK ADVANCER, is no longer available from Honda. It usually takes vice grips or something similar to get it out. It is pretty easy to bend it when re-installing. Again, I would advise to straighten it in place.