Topic: Bikes and "Power"

[GroovieGhoulie]

What I don't get is the constant yammering by owners of new bikes that older bikes are underpowered.

Huh?

The 750, in it's day, posted low 13-second/high 12-second 1/4 mile times.  That will run with any modern Corvette, no slouch in the speed department.

That's fast enough to merge on the freeway

That's fast enough to keep up in traffic.

So why are older bikes considered Underpowered?

Even my little 400 will turn 14s in the quarter, which is not impressive, but still means it outruns many smaller-engined cars like Miatas and small soupes and sedans, which are currently sold now. 

Are our machines underbraked?  Probably.  Marginal Suspensions?  Arguably.  But I think the power is just fine.  Hell, new cruisers produce similar power levels (45-70hp) as our machines and they have WAAAY more cubes.

I saw this on another forum and it just kinda pissed me off:

Wow, I remember when the Kaw 900 first came out. It was the talk of all my friends, with its unbelieveable power and sound.
Compared to the bikes of today, its an underpowered, underbraked, undersuspended pile of crap.
But hey, it was great in the 70's.

and later when called on it:

Its just that our memories of old bikes are usually better then reality. A young guy looking at bikes from the 70's would laugh at the spindly forks, the single piston brake calipers,the 2 valve heads, the ignition points that have to be adjusted, the rear shocks that don't do much more then keep the rear fender off the tire.

I am a young guy and I for one LOVE the spindly forks, single piston brakes, two-valve heads and points ignition.  I revel in the "faults" of my machine.  I love the fact that my bike doesn't have a computer-designed suspension, or a body designed in a wind-tunnel.  I LOVE the fact that my bike has a very narrow performance envelope that takes a lot of skill to exploit.  I love the fact that when my CBR-owning neighbor took my bike for a spin around the block, he returned whiter than a sheet, and he's a filipino.  Said it scared the #$%* out of him and that I had big brass ones to ride a "no-brakes, evil-handling bike".  That makes my chest swell with pride.

[cmorgan47]

  I LOVE the fact that my bike has a very narrow performance envelope that takes a lot of skill to exploit.

yeah, that's where it's it. 
i was talking to a friend about my 400 last night--and the cafe mods i'm working towards.  he's against them, but i told him "that's what this bike wants.  a short seet and a long tank with your chin resting on it.  and it wants to do 100."

he replied that i could buy any number of bikes that would do 100, and i had to explain that that's not the point.  any numbnuts can twist a throttle on a gsxr and go fast.  on this 400 you have to know it.  you have to know that 6 speed intimately.

having said that, my other buddy's triumph sprint is wicked fast and seems to actually slow down and shift some weight when you hit the brakes.

[StevieMac]

It's all relative.  When these bikes came out they were VERY powerful and had VERY good brakes relative to what was available at that time.

Today these bikes are under powered, under braked etc. relative to a modern sportbike.  Cruisers are a whole other world where performance is second to chrome doo-dads etc.

I've had a modern sport bike and I prefer my old CBs now because I have to really 'RIDE' the bike.  I have to be a little aggressive with the throttle, brakes & steering input to get the best out of it (YMMV).  The sport bikes now IMO are so good they are kind of boring unless you can get to a race track and really use all that performance.

I'm a happy camper on my CB.  Those that don't get it are welcome to continue as they wish. To each his own.

[GroovieGhoulie]

It's all relative.  When these bikes came out they were VERY powerful and had VERY good brakes relative to what was available at that time.

Today these bikes are under powered, under braked etc. relative to a modern sportbike.  Cruisers are a whole other world where performance is second to chrome doo-dads etc.

I've had a modern sport bike and I prefer my old CBs now because I have to really 'RIDE' the bike.  I have to be a little aggressive with the throttle, brakes & steering input to get the best out of it (YMMV).  The sport bikes now IMO are so good they are kind of boring unless you can get to a race track and really use all that performance.

I'm a happy camper on my CB.  Those that don't get it are welcome to continue as they wish. To each his own.

Agreed, but the way these folks make it seem is that an older bike will be run over in traffic because it can't get out of its own way.  BS.  Will a modern Plastic Fantastic eat its lunch?  Hell yeah it will and ask for seconds.

But that's not the point.  You nailed it by saying that these bikes are more engaging to RIDE than modern bikes.  I mean I can redline through three gears, be leaning over left and right, pretending I'm a GP champ and I'm still only doing about 65-70 mph, which is legal around here.  Redline a sportbike in first and you're very illegal.  I really think that modern sportbikes are "overpowered/overbraked/oversuspended" for the street.

[mlinder]

A skilled rider will find that the performance between a modern bike and one of our oldies have similar performance when riding 'safely' on public roads. That means, how fast can you SAFELY go on any given stretch of road. Th old bike, obviously, has to work harder to maintain that rate, but at the end of the day, if you are riding your modern sportbike anywhere near IT'S limits on public roads, you'll be dead soon enough to not be an issue in the argument.

[StevieMac]

I mean I can redline through three gears, be leaning over left and right, pretending I'm a GP champ and I'm still only doing about 65-70 mph, which is legal around here. 

Yep.  Exactly!  To me these old bikes are way, way more fun to ride because they require me to be a lot more involved in the process.  By comparison the new sport bikes almost ride themselves.  You could leave them in second gear and ride all day anywhere you wanted.

Some people will always think new is better.  All the power to 'em.  Whatever makes you happy.  I know what makes me happy and I know it won't change when next year's model hits the show rooms.  

[cmorgan47]

  You could leave them in second gear and ride all day anywhere you wanted.

that's more or less what my dad went for.  modern cruiser, drives like an automatic.

[toycollector10]

What I like about the early SOHC's is the exhaust note they put out. Most modern sport bikes go "woof woof" and the big V twins have their own "blapa-da blapa-da" signatures. You just can't beat the wailing howl of a CB750 winding up through the gears. By todays standards though the bike is really only converting gasoline into noise, but in such a great way. But then again, I'm biased.

[jsaab2748]

Yeah, maybe our old cbs aint as good as the new bikes. But where do the nay sayers think the
modern bike evolved from? Not really a fair compairison. I like the new and the old. But I wonder if the modern bikes of today will have the cool factor, thirty years from now, that our bikes enjoy today.......

[cbjunkie]

ha-ha, well MAYBE, but as long as guys like you are willing to put in the time and money on these bikes, the new ones will NEVER be as cool!

 

[bryan]

What I like about the early SOHC's is the exhaust note they put out. Most modern sport bikes go "woof woof" and the big V twins have their own "blapa-da blapa-da" signatures. You just can't beat the wailing howl of a CB750 winding up through the gears. By todays standards though the bike is really only converting gasoline into noise, but in such a great way. But then again, I'm biased.

The sohc4 really does sound awesome at higher rpms and it will leave a lot new cruisers in the dust too!!  I think it takes some skill to ride our bikes to their limit, especially in the turns!  I doubt these new bikes will still be cool when they are 30 yrs old.

[BobbyR]

What I like about the early SOHC's is the exhaust note they put out. Most modern sport bikes go "woof woof" and the big V twins have their own "blapa-da blapa-da" signatures. You just can't beat the wailing howl of a CB750 winding up through the gears. By todays standards though the bike is really only converting gasoline into noise, but in such a great way. But then again, I'm biased.

The sohc4 really does sound awesome at higher rpms and it will leave a lot new cruisers in the dust too!!  I think it takes some skill to ride our bikes to their limit, especially in the turns!  I doubt these new bikes will still be cool when they are 30 yrs old.

We have all the power we need to get where we are going, and we have a good chance of getting back also. If underbraked means not doing a nose wheelie, then we are underbraked.

[nickjtc]

But that's not the point.  You nailed it by saying that these bikes are more engaging to RIDE than modern bikes.  I mean I can redline through three gears, be leaning over left and right, pretending I'm a GP champ and I'm still only doing about 65-70 mph, which is legal around here.  Redline a sportbike in first and you're very illegal.  I really think that modern sportbikes are "overpowered/overbraked/oversuspended" for the street.

I agree. And frankly, if you put Valentino Rossi on one of our bikes and a squid on their crotch rocket and sent them of down a 'normal' twisty road I know which one I would bet on to get to the end first.

My VFR800 was a great bike, but my CB650 is way more fun to ride....no pretension, just good, clean, engaging riding.

[Jeff]

I'll chime in here, because not all that long ago I may have said the same thing. I've owned my CB550K for 5 days. I've ridden it a few times now, and it's just plain FUN. Just running down to the gas station or to Walmart, and it's fun. My 98 Superhawk I had was alot of fun too, and I really loved that bike. But it's completely different.

Fun on the Superhawk was basically illegal. The thing would wheelie whenever I just thought about it. Getting up to 150 indicated was a helluva lot of fun, although stupid, dangerous, and getting caught meant going to jail.

Fun on the CB is more laid back. I can tool around on it and enjoy it. I can feel like I'm thrashing it, yet I'm only doing 65. I could end up with a ticket, but I sure wouldn't be going to jail. Riding to work was fun. I probably went slower through the curves than on the Superhawk, but not by much. But if I rode with one of my less skilled buddies on his race replica, I think I could still show him how it's done.

FWIW, I see myself keeping the CB for a long time. I'll learn how to wrench, maybe customize it a bit like so many of the cool bikes on this forum. But I also see adding a modern bike back to the stable. Something like a Triumph Speed Triple.

Jeff

[cmorgan47]

yeah, everyone of my buddies that ride modern bikes (it's about half and half) loves to ride my 400.  you'll see a guy get off a 1000cc triumph and tool around on a 31 year old 400cc honda, and when he comes back, he's grinning ear to ear talking about how he needs to get something like it.

[sparty]

It's all relative.  When these bikes came out they were VERY powerful and had VERY good brakes relative to what was available at that time.

Today these bikes are under powered, under braked etc. relative to a modern sportbike.  Cruisers are a whole other world where performance is second to chrome doo-dads etc.

I've had a modern sport bike and I prefer my old CBs now because I have to really 'RIDE' the bike.  I have to be a little aggressive with the throttle, brakes & steering input to get the best out of it (YMMV).  The sport bikes now IMO are so good they are kind of boring unless you can get to a race track and really use all that performance.

I'm a happy camper on my CB.  Those that don't get it are welcome to continue as they wish. To each his own.

I like the fact that my CB stands out on Bike Night.  It doesn't look like one of the pack.  It screams independence and failure to conform.  It doesn't require a "biker" attitude.  It doesn't require a second mortgage.  It gets in your face and stays there.  "How dare he take a Jap bike to this event".  A while back, at my first Bike Night, I decided to slogan my bike as "No Respect".  But you know what?  I don't gush over their bikes either.

CB Proud,
Sparty

[cmorgan47]

CB Proud,

that's the next tatoo.

[nickjtc]

CB Proud,

that's the next tatoo.

Yeah!!! I've been looking for a theme for the next tat.

Being a gregarious kind of soul the other thing I like about these bikes is that you get to meet a lot of interesting people. If I'm just pootling around town I always allow twice as long to do my errands as I would if I was on the old VFR. Everywhere I stop people (usually old geezers my age) walk up and want to talk about the good old days, and the fact that they once had a Honda/Yam/Suz/Kaw/Norton/BSA or whatever. Of course, I always ask....well, why don't you get another one?

[Zip]

I love my 31-year-old hardtailed old school chopper.

I love its yellow frame and its dirtbike front end, and its bare metal tank and rear fender that are beginning to show a fine rust patina.  I love riding just above legal speeds on the highway and diiggin' the music the breadbox and exhaust make.  I love that when a GSX-R/YZF/Ninja blows by me I can think, 'so the f*ck what?'

I love that most people that ask me about the bike whether I'm stopped at a traffic light or at a gathering, nod their heads in approval with some sort of reminiscent statement or just a comment of appreciation, even it's something like, 'That thing looks like it's been around the block a few times' (which it has).

I love that it's set up for _me_, by me, with a number of parts that were not bought in any store, exactly the way I want it, so that I can ride it all day, only stopping for gas and piss stops if I'm in a hurry.

'Nicole's' 738cc's have more than enough power to get me where I'm going, and always make it a fulfilling experience.

Zip

http://tinyurl.com/rv496

[Uncle Ernie]

Huh... no one ever talks to me.  Women grab their kids and run inside, sometimes a dog will growl...
I'm not fast, but I feel faster on older bikes because that's more where my skill level is. Youth and reflexes are no match for age and treachery.  These young studs on their big bore thangs are cat poop in the rain if they dont have the skill to match in these mountains.

BTW- remember that post about the RD60 and my quest fot the 1cc bike?  There's talk of a hoodlum gang on tiddlers around here.  Word is spreading like wild fire.  A friend is putting a 125 jug on his Honda 90S... I think that may disqualify him, though.

[GoatBaSS]

I have to add one powerful point. Economics. Plenty of power knowing you can afford to ride, insure, fix, tag, customize, and drink at the fountain of youth any time you throw a leg over.  To also know that is paid for. Still makes me feel ahead of the herd every time I ride.

[nickjtc]

I have to add one powerful point. Economics. Plenty of power knowing you can afford to ride, insure, fix, tag, customize, and drink at the fountain of youth any time you throw a leg over.  To also know that is paid for. Still makes me feel ahead of the herd every time I ride.

Well said. My trusty 650 has carried me 7,000km trouble free since I bought her in May. She owes me nothing (having saved me a ton of money in airfares or car rental fees), but each time we ride the 400+km commute twice a week that I have mentioned before, I feel more and more attachment to the old girl. I anticipate that we will have travelled well over 10,000km together by the time this work contract finishes. My original plan of selling her on at the end of the season is fast evaporating into plans of a cosmetic resto. along with conversion into a more 'Euro-spec' bike.

The Norton (aka 'The Mistress') is still sulking in the garage!

[ofreen]

I wonder if over at the Rudge forum they are going on and on about all those wankers on their '70s UJMs and how those UJMs don't have the class and style and soul of the good ole Rudge, and if you don't have a Rudge, you just don't get it.

[toycollector10]

Nice one ofreen.

"Put down the banana and step away from the bike, NOW!, Step away from the bike"

[Trevor from Warragul]

Everytime I park my 1978 CBX someone will talk to me about it.  And the young hoons in their hot cars just love it, especially when they find out it's 28 years old.  Same thing happens with my Morini 3 1/2 & CB 350 four (and will soon start happening again with the H1A).  That just doesn't happen on a modern bike...

[bryan]

I have to add one powerful point. Economics. Plenty of power knowing you can afford to ride, insure, fix, tag, customize, and drink at the fountain of youth any time you throw a leg over.  To also know that is paid for. Still makes me feel ahead of the herd every time I ride.

Well said. My trusty 650 has carried me 7,000km trouble free since I bought her in May. She owes me nothing (having saved me a ton of money in airfares or car rental fees), but each time we ride the 400+km commute twice a week that I have mentioned before, I feel more and more attachment to the old girl. I anticipate that we will have travelled well over 10,000km together by the time this work contract finishes. My original plan of selling her on at the end of the season is fast evaporating into plans of a cosmetic resto. along with conversion into a more 'Euro-spec' bike.

The Norton (aka 'The Mistress') is still sulking in the garage!

 
Silver is a nice colour for the 650.  All the ones I've seen are brown, not my taste.

[petercb750]

Not long ago I took a mate's Kawa ZZR1200 for a ride, a fast piece by anybody's standard, but i have never felt as "removed" from a riding experience as I was on that bike - no feel to it, no noise, no real sense of speed, apart from the crazy way the sppedo needle seemed to outpace the tacho! - it didn't even make me smile, just think "this is too fast and why am I on this". When I got off I just shook my head and said "why". And I've ridden for 35 years on all sorts.
Got back on the old 750 - aaaah, noise, vibes, wind - one word - character! This is what it's all about.
When the mrs and I go out on our bikes (hers is a 400/4) we attract more attention and get more conversations and thumbs up than the blokes down the road in their fluro leathers and white boots on their missiles and pocket rockets, or the trendies on their megacruisers.
It comes back to that word again - character, and obviously a lot of other people know it too.
So power aint everything - but I reckon I'm preaching to those that know anyway.....
Ride on. 

[ofreen]

"Put down the banana and step away from the bike, NOW!, Step away from the bike"

I can't hear you.  There's a banana in my ear.