Author Topic: Paint Question  (Read 2119 times)

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Offline new2bikes-again

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Paint Question
« on: June 07, 2013, 09:15:00 PM »
I know this isn't a painter forum, but I don't belong to a painter forum. I don't like painting, I stink at prepping, and prepping is everything!

Overall question: Can I wet sand dry paint and get clear coat to stick? Or does the paint have to be semi-wet for the clear coat to adhere?

Reason: I put a white stripe in line with the gas cap. I painted white in the general area, waited a few days for it to dry, masked it off (if I hadn't waited, the white would have come off with the tape, right?) and then painted my entire tank. It's now been a week since I painted the black on the tank. So..How do I put a fresh coat of white over the stripe after removing the tape, before the clear?

BTW, This is a $40 spray-can job (including paper and filler, lots of filler ::)) I'm using DupliColor Enamel and Spray Max 2K Clear. This isn't a show bike. Only I have to like it. Fuel resistance would be nice. It'd be cool to hear "you did that with spray paint"? But I'm not getting my hopes up!

Offline FeralBoy

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Re: Paint Question
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2013, 09:28:41 PM »
I am no expert, but as far as I know, the paint has to be dry before you wet sand.  At least every time I have wet sanded, the paint has been fully dry.  I believe that the "wet" in wet sand refers to the sandpaper being wet, not the paint. 
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Offline new2bikes-again

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Re: Paint Question
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2013, 10:22:16 PM »
From what I've read, you have to spray the clear coat over the base, just as the base is no longer tacky (30min). Then the base and clear 'bond' to each other while drying.

The reason I would wet sand is to get the base tacky to give the clear something to bond to. I can put another coat on the black part, but I can't over the white.

FeralBoy, I believe the reason for wetsanding is so you're not moving loose grit around and putting scratches in your paint. Plus it seems to 'lubricate'. I always wait a while between sands and coats.

Offline new2bikes-again

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Re: Paint Question
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2013, 10:47:55 PM »
When I bought my bike last year, I also got the story of what had happened to the tank. Son borrowed MC. Throttle cable breaks on highway. Son late for work. Tank gets beaten with helmet, repeatedly.

So, $200+ for a new-to-me nice tank, or $40 to make mine decent. I chose $40. Although, I thought since 20yrs has passed since I used to paint every MC or Moped I bought, I'd be better at prep and patience. Nope..I still suck at it!

Offline phil71

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Re: Paint Question
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2013, 11:04:21 PM »
You shouldn't do another coat of white. If the paint got hurt by putting the tape on while still wet, you're kinda screwed.
If the white is intact, then you're golden. Leave it alone.
Then, just get some prep solvent (not lacquer thinner, or acetone ). Clean the tank really good. DON'T wetsand the color coat. Let it be, and do 5 or 6 nice even coats of  SPRAYMAX 2k Urethane clear paint. Read the directions twice before you do. That stuff will stave off gas stains really well.

Once it's good and dry, it'll look a little cloudy. Don't worry. 
Get yourself 600 and 1200 & 2000 gritwet sanding paper.
get something like a pie tin or similar. Put a drop of dishwashing liquid in and put a little warm water in it.
Swish the 600 grit in the warm water, and sand the tank. Dip the paper often to clear the crud out.
Don't sand in one place, move around, long strokes and not too fast.
 I like to hose the tank down occasionally to keep the sediment away.
Once you get a feel for it, you'll realize that as you make your strokes with the sandpaper, it'll feel scratchy at first, and smoother as you go.
When you stop feeling 'scratchyness' with the 600, move up to the 1200.
when you stop feeling 'scratchyness' with the 1200, move to the 2000.
When that's done, rinse well, and dry. Run a soft lint-free cloth with prep solvent all over it.
The final polishing step is best done with the tank mounted. 
 Some people would say to use rubbing compound , finish with polishing compound.. If you've wetsanded up to 2000, I like to just go straight to the polish.
 I really like Maguires ultimate polish. A machine saves time, but if you've never used one, you can ruin everything QUICK, so I'd just say to use some super soft microfiber cloths and a lot of elbow grease. It'll wear you out a little, but it's really satisfying.

Offline new2bikes-again

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Re: Paint Question
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2013, 06:58:09 AM »
Thank you very much Phil! That's what I will do, today. Wish me luck getting that masking tape off (without the paint).

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Paint Question
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2013, 07:22:41 AM »
Wet sanding is really wet, they make drip rails to keep the paint wet and to wash away the paint that is removed.
You do not need the Duplicolor to be tacky, in fact it needs to be fully cured or you will have problems because the evaporation of the solvents not having occurred. If it were the same kind of paint, then it might be different, but with different paints being tacky is not good. If your white and black aren't smooth it will take more clear to bridge that difference in height, so color sanding can reduce this difference and make the paint level. If there is any orange peel in the black or white it needs color sanded before clear.
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline new2bikes-again

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Re: Paint Question
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2013, 10:02:53 PM »
Well..It's done for a few weeks. I painted the tank, bucket, badges, side covers, and gauges. Twice! Then cleared, twice! I need to ride and step away for a few days.

The first clear I had a few runs and a fly. The second clear was close to perfect, with a little orange peel. I decided to try to wet sand with 1500 and a little polishing and waxing. I took the clear off during wet sanding. Couldn't get it back after 4 hours of buffing and polishing. That was my Friday.

Today, I re-installed the swing arm and got it back on the road. I'll prep and clear it again in a few days (or weeks). I'll wait until my hands and patience heal.  ;)

Offline phil71

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Re: Paint Question
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2013, 10:05:09 PM »
only 2 coats of clear? That doesn't  make sense. If you used spraymax, you kind of have to use the whole can or it will go bad. If you didn't use spraymax.. the first fuel you splash will wreck it in a hurry.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Paint Question
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2013, 10:41:49 PM »
I'm not a great painter, but have this one experience I always try to remember and pass on, regarding wet sanding: if Bondo (or similar) filler is used, don't ever wet sand it. It never dries. About 1-2 years later on a hot day, it will "steam" and neatly crack the paint in the shape of the Bondo patch, then lets the paint fall off. Also neatly, outlining the Bondo.

Once I found this out, it completely explained what happened to my 1972 El Camino (new, from Chevy) in the winter of 1972. I bought it in September of 1971, custom-ordered from the factory as a hotrod (big block, 4-speed, posi, wheels, the works), took 6 weeks to get it (a long time in those days!). I noticed an ever-so-slight ripple in the black stripes that graced the hood, but didn't think much about it, was all excited to try out the car/truck, took delivery, drove away smiling.

Short-lived smile.

The short story (believe it or not, this IS the short story):
A week later, back to the Chevy dealer: the front end was wacko, car wandered all over the road from day One. Turned out, the subframe was welded together crooked. I watched as an angry, frustrated mechanic beat the lower subframe with a 4-pound sledge hammer so he could make the front end align somewhat close. Once he missed, and bent the 5-spoke left front wheel on the inside rim. Had to make them get me another: it came unpainted - they painted it, but it did not match the other 3, and they refused to paint those to match it.

Month two: the clutch starts slipping. Rear main oil seal popped out, drowning the clutch in oil. Engine not even broken in yet (2000 miles), gets pulled out for the seal. Sits 3 weeks in the shop, waiting for the seal. Snow starts, still riding my CB750K1.

End of November, 1971: haul my CB750K1 in the truck to Peoria for my friend Jim to find out why it is handling so badly (whole 'nuther story of mis-made frames...). Enroute, the fan belts all fly off the engine, just 40 miles since I got the truck back from the shop, 11 PM in a small farm town. A wonderful garage owner comes out to meet me in his garage at midnight, puts on new belts for me. I get to Peoria (40 miles more), then back to Macomb (80 miles back), all belts fly off again as I enter town. Install new belts, a little looser, drive to Missouri next day: all belts fly off about 300 miles later. I have spares. At the old farm where I was raised, discover the power steering pump was installed into the wrong holes on the engine bracket - by the Chevy dealer who pulled the engine - tilted it about 7 degrees, eats belts. Fix that.

Close the hood: notice the paint is cracked on the black stripes. In 5 places. Before I get home the next day, 3 of those cracked spots are bare, to the Bondo that was used to smooth the hood so it looked pretty. Now it is December, 1971. Go back to school in January, -20 degrees all month. Come March: 8 more places on the back of the car are shedding their paint, all showing Bondo underneath. Take it to the Chevy dealer: sorry, paint only warranteed for 90 days. Pissed, go back to school and work.

The next summer (1972), I take it to a painter to find out why this is happening to my new car (8000 miles on it). He explained very patiently, knowingly, and shaking his head: GM uses Bondo-like body filler, wet-sands it to shape to smooth out their crummy stampings, dries it under heat lamps (sometimes) for 24 hours, then paints it. The Bondo holds the moisture until an opportune moment, then bubbles the paint. He makes most of his living fixing GM cars, repaint work with no Bondo. Uses epoxy filler instead, dry sanding only, but wants as much as I paid for the car to fix mine. I don't have the cash.

I sell the car, still with bad paint, engine has been out twice for rear main seals, shifter broke off inside the cab (I replaced it myself, won't let the dealer touch it, now), posi clutches gone because dealer used wrong oil at the oil change (scheduled warranty maintenance), paint falling off the (mismatched) wheel and steering pulls hard to the left (on 2 lane roads!), no more adjustment left in front end. It was 13 months almost to the day I got it, sold it for 20% of what I paid new.

And, it never got more than 10 MPG, on the hiway. That was my last GM.
And, this IS the short story of it...  :-\
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Offline new2bikes-again

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Re: Paint Question
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2013, 06:01:47 AM »
Phil,

I used two cans of SprayMax. One can the first time, and another a week later. By the time I got the runs down and the fly pieces out, I had gotten down too far. The second clear I thought was the "money coat" and tried to make perfect. I should have left it alone.

HondaMan,

That explains A LOT! I've been filling, sanding, priming, over and over. The filler kept staying darker than the rest for a few days (even though it sanded dusty the next day). I know it was dry after a few hours, but would stay a little darker. Those spots would start to raise. I took those spots back down to bare metal, etched it with a razor blade, cleaned it with prep wash, and put JB Weld on the metal. I thought that there must be little pinholes from where the pull pins were welded all over the tank. Even though I had filled the tank with Vinegar last year when I got it back from the body shop, and checked for leaks all over the tank for four days. I thought that gasses might be creeping through.

It's been the wet sanding all along! I think I'm going to look for a tank over the next year, while I decide if I like the black and white. If I do, then I'll just have to paint the tank (I like the side covers).

P.S. I can't understand the loyal GM fans either. The big three all have their quirks, but I feel that Ford works them out faster and more fair (at a better price). I worked at a Ford dealership for a few years as a technician (2000-2001), and I've seen some some great things done for customers and some shady things that I couldn't brush off at bedtime. So now I work in the water business (on my own)! Sounds like you were done shady by a few different people and companies. Thanks for the knowledge from a bad experience!

Offline cougar

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Re: Paint Question
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2013, 10:22:47 PM »
HondaMan ; Sir I mean no offence to you as I respect you and your words Greatly !! But that will teach you (and it did) to by a GM product, LOLOL !!    new2bikes-again ; Amen to the Ford !! Been abusing them all my life, like these Hondas "You Just Can't Beat 'Em"   ...cougar...
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Offline kghost

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Re: Paint Question
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2013, 12:38:27 AM »
Listen up.

Bondo is a polyester resin.

If you are going to paint or wet sand over bondo, prime first.

I recommend an epoxy primer.

I notice you said "CAN".

I have NEVER had good fuel resistance with ANY clear coat out of a spray can.

Good luck.
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Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Paint Question
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2013, 08:31:53 AM »
kghost,
SprayMax 2K is a 2 part urethane clear that is a very good product with spray can that does far above average pattern and atomization. Properly applied it will provide a lasting glossy finish.  So, for inexpensive paint jobs it is the way to go.
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline Duanob

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Re: Paint Question
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2013, 09:12:49 AM »
Listen up.

Bondo is a polyester resin.

If you are going to paint or wet sand over bondo, prime first.

I recommend an epoxy primer.

I notice you said "CAN".

I have NEVER had good fuel resistance with ANY clear coat out of a spray can.

Good luck.

Kghost, Spraymax2K is the Shyte! Its works great against chemicals and UV sun rays. And it finishes fantastic.

I concur on the epoxy primer. You won't have wet spot issues with the bondo. In fact spraymax makes one.
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