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Offline tlbranth

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Exhaust questions for tuning experts
« on: June 20, 2013, 05:45:25 PM »
I have a 1970 CB750. I've owned it since new. I have a MAC 4 into 1 on it right now and it seems to run OK with standard jets. Air cleaner is a K&N.
I want to build a 4 into 4 exhaust that looks more-or-less like the original setup. It looks like I can get everything I need from MEGS or Cone Engineering. I figured on building the mufflers from their pre-formed cone material and capping with a reverse cone. Here's the part I'm not sure of: My bike came, originally, with glass-pack, straight through mufflers - I'm pretty sure. If I use MEGS' perforated cores and pack stainless steel wool around them, am I emulating the original? Will it be too loud? Will the carbs need rejetting? (don't wanna). I don't have a TIG setup so all this stuff would be mild steel - if that makes a difference. I'm just doing some preliminary checking. I've never made an exhaust system but that's why I want to do it - I bore easily. Anyway, any information appreciated.

Oh one more thing:

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« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 05:47:24 PM by tlbranth »
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Offline lucky

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Re: Exhaust questions for tuning experts
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2013, 03:04:25 PM »
You might try putting the baffle in the end of the exhaust header before putting the megaphone on the pipe.  Works for me.

Offline flybox1

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Re: Exhaust questions for tuning experts
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2013, 03:24:05 PM »
Hey Terry,  I think you'd run into some jetting/carb tuning no matter what.  How about 2 into ones with two of their quiet core mufflers.  I'm really pleased with mine, and the backpressure is substantial.
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

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Offline bjbuchanan

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Re: Exhaust questions for tuning experts
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2013, 08:20:36 PM »
If I was gonna do a 4-4 I would ahve the actual outlets small in size, somewhat replicate a stock opening on them. The more open the louder. If you want to get a little wild try the shorty reverse megaphones with baffling and make kick ups to them. Steel wool will probably replicate the fiberglass packing fine if you use it as baffling material. Maybe throw in a little balance tube just for kicks.

Rejetting probably won't be much of an issue, probably a fiddle with the mix screws maybe richen the mixture with the needle clip position.. With the setup you are replacing you probably only have to lean the mixture screws tho because you will have more back pressure most likely
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Offline tlbranth

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Re: Exhaust questions for tuning experts
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2013, 09:34:31 AM »
Flybox - I really want to get close to original with a 4 into 4. I guess I don't understand the 'backpressure' thing. Seems to me you'd wand minimal resistance - but apparently not. Why is that?
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Offline Powderman

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Re: Exhaust questions for tuning experts
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2013, 09:40:13 AM »
Flybox - I really want to get close to original with a 4 into 4. I guess I don't understand the 'backpressure' thing. Seems to me you'd wand minimal resistance - but apparently not. Why is that?
Smaller pipes create more bottom end torque and a big pipe breathes more freely for top end horsepower. You want a happy medium or tuned to the riding style you will be doing most.

Offline Old Scrambler

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Re: Exhaust questions for tuning experts
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2013, 12:47:00 PM »
The pipe ID must be appropriate for the application...........in this case.........stay with the OEM ID.

Pipe length (not counting the muffler) is most important for controlling torque and HP...........stay with the OEM length since we have yet to find anyone better than HONDA engineers to design the best pipe for overall moderate performance expected from a street application.

The shape, length, degree of taper, and all of that again applied to the reverse cone is critical when designing the reverse megaphone muffler.  Your idea of inserting a baffle with SS wrap will be fine and can be tuned by adding or decreasing the amount of SS wrap. If you stay close to the original taper and length, your jetting should be good or very close. The resultant back-pressure may need minor air-screw adjustment for the idle-circuit.

Back Pressure........After each time the piston pushes 184cc of exhaust from the cylinder the valve closes and creates a harmonic gap in the pipe between each exhaust stroke. A street pipe application will have a good amount of back-pressure for a muffled sound effect and to allow proper temperature control of the exhaust for moderate engine speeds.  A free-flowing exhaust will help top-end performance but tends to hinder the low-end because of the relationship between piston speed and the rate of flow required in the pipe. The optimum exhaust design actually succeeds in creating a slight amount of vacuum at the valve-stem to help suck the exhaust out of the cylinder.  In a small way the cross-over tube on the OEM mufflers also help to balance the exhaust flow to reduce vibration and the pitch of the sound.

Please post pics as you assemble.........interesting project.   
Dennis in Wisconsin
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Offline tlbranth

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Re: Exhaust questions for tuning experts
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2013, 10:15:32 AM »
I'm not sure when I'll actually get to it. I tend to mull a lot before actually doing. But I will post as things progress. One problem I see is: there's no 'adjusting' in the plan because everything will be welded so whatever I go with is the way it'll be. That's why I was looking for advice on the best way to proceed. One thing I did learn by looking around the web is that you can't weld on both ends of the perf pipe because it gets hotter than the outside and will bereak the welds. One end needs to float. How I do that without a 'rattle' is something I need to figure out.
I will stick to OEM pipe size and length to maximize the possibility of a good outcome.
Thanks for all your input. Got anything else? I'd like to hear it.
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Offline Old Scrambler

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Re: Exhaust questions for tuning experts
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2013, 11:11:50 AM »
Regarding the inner support for the baffle..............before you completely roll the mega a 'washer' mount can be tacked at 3 points to center the baffle-tube. If you design the mega to be a sandwich (like the original) you can attach the washer in a similar way to the inner half.  Another design would incorporate a removable perforated metal baffle tube with wrap inside of a perforated canister with outer spacer bars to create an open space for a finished metal wrap. A short reverse-cone could be removable by using replaceable rivets.
Dennis in Wisconsin
'64 Triumph Cub & '74 Honda CB750 Bonneville Salt Flats AMA Record Holder (6)
CB750 Classic Bonneville Racer thread - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,135473.0.html
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Offline flybox1

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Re: Exhaust questions for tuning experts
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2013, 11:23:07 AM »
Terry, if you're in need, I have a TIG guy who does excellent work.
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

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Offline tlbranth

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Re: Exhaust questions for tuning experts
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2013, 08:46:38 PM »
Dennis, would you mind restating this part so a dope could understand it?

Another design would incorporate a removable perforated metal baffle tube with wrap inside of a perforated canister with outer spacer bars to create an open space for a finished metal wrap.

Also, I was planning on buying the cones pre-fabed so I'd have to weld my supports inside it.

Flybox - might come to that although I'd really like to do it all myself. What I have is a Miller MIG setup. I'm pretty new at it although I've been stick welding for many years. My neighbor restores old cars and is an excellent MIG welder. He just built an exhaust for a hotrod from scratch and it turned out beautifully. I know he would like to find a decent TIG guy though. He often needs stainless or aluminum welded and he's had not so good luck with the locals.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Exhaust questions for tuning experts
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2013, 09:13:46 PM »
TL:
There were 2 different K0 pipes. The early ones found on the sandcasts and those early K0 bikes with #120 mainjets and needles in the center notch had no baffling inside, just the fiberglass-wrapped insert on the end of the pipes.

By somewhere around 2/ (or 3)/70 production, a single baffle was placed in the upsweep corner of each pipe. This had a hole about 12mm in diameter, with a short piece of tube thru the baffle, about 8mm long, same length both sides of the baffle (3+mm toward the engine, 3+mm toward the back, the rest was in the baffle and weld). The ends of those pipes had the same fiberglass-wrapped 'silencer' as the earlier bikes, but the jetting was changed: the mainjets were first shrunk to #115, then later that summer 1970 the needles were also dropped one notch (2nd clip from the blunt end of the needles. An "informal notice", which was a sort of service bulletin handed around by Honda Reps, showed crude hand drawings of these details and were handed out just once to Honda mechanics, in case the pipes had to be changed. It was all part of reducing the plug fouling tendencies of the K0 in heavy, slow traffic riding. Increasing the backpressure a little bit with this one baffle dropped the 9500 RPM power a notch, but noticeably improved the freeway on-ramp acceleration in the midrange. It also made a large improvement on plug fouling problems.
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Offline lucky

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Re: Exhaust questions for tuning experts
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2013, 12:13:24 PM »
When Honda introduced the CB350's They matched the exhaust OD to the exhaust port size.
The Americans did not like the small size pipe.
So they added a outer chrome tube over the real exhaust tube for looks.
The exhaust ended up weighing 33lbs.!

The CB exhaust had 3 more HP that the CL scrambler version because the CB pipe had a better flow with the sweeping flow and the tight turns of the CL shape.

On the CB750(78) I went from a 4 into 2 into 1 Cycle-x exhaust with baffle and megaphone, to a set of Cycle-X 4 into 4 roadster longies with pine cone baffles and the amount of low end power was dramatic.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2013, 12:16:47 PM by lucky »

Offline flybox1

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Re: Exhaust questions for tuning experts
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2013, 12:21:12 PM »
Terry, FYI
he's up in my area (Snohomish/Mill Creek)

http://performanceweldingservice.com/index.html
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

Offline Old Scrambler

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Re: Exhaust questions for tuning experts
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2013, 01:19:29 PM »
Terry..........restated.........the idea is to build the muffler very similar to a modern exhaust and still retain a removable center baffle-pipe. The outer side of the perforated mega would have a series of light-weight bars (thin rods) to separate it from an outer skin for good looks.

Mark's info on the jetting is very useful for original pipes ...........any changes to the pipes will likely require a change to the jets and will be noticed like the comment from Lucky.

I have sets of poor-condition Lotus-Root and later style no-number pipes..........One of these days I'll get someone to help me take some decent photos of the insides....... 
Dennis in Wisconsin
'64 Triumph Cub & '74 Honda CB750 Bonneville Salt Flats AMA Record Holder (6)
CB750 Classic Bonneville Racer thread - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,135473.0.html
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Offline tlbranth

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Re: Exhaust questions for tuning experts
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2013, 08:58:52 PM »
More questions: My engine # is CB750E-1020610. My frame # is CB750-1020865. I can't find any mention of manufacture date. Everything is stock except for the MAC 4 into 1 exhaust, a K&N air cleaner, and a Hondaman ignition. I don't know what size jets I have and shudder at the thought of having to tell my arthritic joints to go find out. Can anyone tell based on the engine#? The bike runs rich. Plugs are always sooty. Needles are on middle notch. Bike runs well otherwise. What jets should I try? Where do I get them? All this to tide me over 'til I start cobbling together a 4 into 4.

Regarding the 4 into 4: Hondaman, based on my engine# can you tell me which exhaust setup you think came with my bike? Could you put together a simple sketch of where the baffle goes? Is the rest of the pipe blocked off around the tube? It seems to me my needles were always in the middle position but I could be wrong. One thing I'm afraid of is welding up an exhaust that turns out to be too loud such that I have to scrap it or cut it open for modification. On the other hand, I do recall it sounding pretty brassy when I turned on the gas.

Again, all help gratefully received.

« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 09:00:28 PM by tlbranth »
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Exhaust questions for tuning experts
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2014, 01:27:12 PM »
More questions: My engine # is CB750E-1020610. My frame # is CB750-1020865. I can't find any mention of manufacture date. Everything is stock except for the MAC 4 into 1 exhaust, a K&N air cleaner, and a Hondaman ignition. I don't know what size jets I have and shudder at the thought of having to tell my arthritic joints to go find out. Can anyone tell based on the engine#? The bike runs rich. Plugs are always sooty. Needles are on middle notch. Bike runs well otherwise. What jets should I try? Where do I get them? All this to tide me over 'til I start cobbling together a 4 into 4.

Regarding the 4 into 4: Hondaman, based on my engine# can you tell me which exhaust setup you think came with my bike? Could you put together a simple sketch of where the baffle goes? Is the rest of the pipe blocked off around the tube? It seems to me my needles were always in the middle position but I could be wrong. One thing I'm afraid of is welding up an exhaust that turns out to be too loud such that I have to scrap it or cut it open for modification. On the other hand, I do recall it sounding pretty brassy when I turned on the gas.

Again, all help gratefully received.



Yeah, the neat thing about the fiberglass 'diffusers' (as Honda called them) was that if you laid off the throttle, the bike was real quiet. Jumping on it produced a real GP sound! I loved it on my K1, but when I started touring at GP speeds, the noise was a bit much after a long day. I really appreciated the HM341 pipes then on my K2. :)

It sounds like your OEM pipes were the ones with either the punched-steel baffle ends on the head pipes (inside the upturn of the muffler), or the washer-pipe chamber described above. This would put the mainjets at #120 and the needles in the center notch. This combo would still tend to foul plugs, even with the MAC, I suspect.

To make a set, I'd suggest these steps:
1. At the ends of the header pipes (or close to that spot) maybe insert a washer with a 3/4" hole to simulate the first baffle. If this looks like it might damage the new muffler, it could be skipped without much bad effect: it mostly breaks up the low-pressure volume for improved midrange torque. It basically divides the exhaust pipe volume into 2 sections: the header pipe section and the expansion section. This does a lot to break up the noise.
2. The muffler insert(s) at the back can be done in 2 ways: one way makes more flow and improved top end HP than the other way. The "improved flow" method involves leaving the whole length of the perforated pipe open, and for this you simply wrap some fiberglass around the outside of its whole length. The other method is to weld the inner end shut with a small disc of some sort, then leave the first 4-6" of length of perforated pipe open and wrap the last section of it with the fiberglass. This simulates the later version of the HM300 pipes that were found on most diecast K0 bikes. This extra restriction was accompanied by the #115 mainjets and the needles dropped a notch (to notch #2 from the blunt end) to reduce the plug fouling.

Either way, you can likely control the plug fouling with the needle notch, in the end. I used to do that a lot in the day if the customer didn't want to pay for smaller jets. Often, the float bowl levels on the K0 bikes were set between 24-25mm (by Honda!), too, and the brass floats tended to make them run pretty deep in addition. That complicated the fouling issues, but it also made more power and faster throttle response. ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline lucky

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Re: Exhaust questions for tuning experts
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2014, 03:30:56 PM »
The pipe ID must be appropriate for the application...........in this case.........stay with the OEM ID.

Pipe length (not counting the muffler) is most important for controlling torque and HP...........stay with the OEM length since we have yet to find anyone better than HONDA engineers to design the best pipe for overall moderate performance expected from a street application.

The shape, length, degree of taper, and all of that again applied to the reverse cone is critical when designing the reverse megaphone muffler.  Your idea of inserting a baffle with SS wrap will be fine and can be tuned by adding or decreasing the amount of SS wrap. If you stay close to the original taper and length, your jetting should be good or very close. The resultant back-pressure may need minor air-screw adjustment for the idle-circuit.

Back Pressure........After each time the piston pushes 184cc of exhaust from the cylinder the valve closes and creates a harmonic gap in the pipe between each exhaust stroke. A street pipe application will have a good amount of back-pressure for a muffled sound effect and to allow proper temperature control of the exhaust for moderate engine speeds.  A free-flowing exhaust will help top-end performance but tends to hinder the low-end because of the relationship between piston speed and the rate of flow required in the pipe. The optimum exhaust design actually succeeds in creating a slight amount of vacuum at the valve-stem to help suck the exhaust out of the cylinder.  In a small way the cross-over tube on the OEM mufflers also help to balance the exhaust flow to reduce vibration and the pitch of the sound.

Please post pics as you assemble.........interesting project.   

Honda had a 3 million dollar Dyno at that time.
I would stick with the original design.
Headers the same ID as the exhaust port and 30 inches long.
Curvature the same as stock.
Make sure the megaphones taper like the originals.
You can use 14 ga. sheet metal and a 110 volt mig.
Make sure the fit up is tight.
Make some kind of mandrel. Or get Cone engineering to make you a long taper cone and put pie cuts in it to get the curve right.
For a baffle use a big washer with a hole in it. Put i on the end of the header.
Make some way to detach the taper megaphones so you can experiment with different size washers.

Offline tlbranth

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Re: Exhaust questions for tuning experts
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2014, 05:21:29 PM »
Thanks guys.
 Mark, my mains are 120 and the needle clip was in the center slot. This how it was new - I'm the original owner. So since I'm interested in low and midrange performance and not balls-out acceleration, I think the baffle at the upturn (12mm hole or 3/4"?) would be the way to go and make a full length perf. pipe wrapped with fiberglass.
 Lucky, I am trying to duplicate Honda's design as much as possible for the reasons you stated and I want it to be reasonably quiet.
I've located the tubing for the headers here:
http://www.mandrel-bends.com/catalog/tube-pipe-bar-38/round-tubing-16-gauge-64/mild-steel-66/
and will pick up on my way through Oregon at the end of February. Meanwhile I'm working on building a tubing bender based on this fellow's idea:
DIY Tubing Bender
I'm planning on using the original Honda flange setup and duplicating the way the header fits. I have the original headers and flanges. I cut the pipes back in the 70's to put on Alphabet 4 into 2 mufflers and tossed my old mufflers, shields and all, into the trash. Who knew?
I've located some stainless steel perf sheet at Grainger.
I'm going to try to cobble together some setup to roll my own megaphones from 16 gauge mild steel. If it's not working, I may have to go thinner. We'll see. After rolling, the two outer mufflers have to be bent in at the tail end.
I have a couple of questions - does anyone have the outer dimensions of the muffler at the small (front) end and the large (back end before it reverses)? This is not counting the weld flanges - just the main body. And does anyone know the diameter of the perf pipe with the fiberglass wrapped around it?

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1975 GL1000
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Offline edwardmorris

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Re: Exhaust questions for tuning experts
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2014, 10:25:59 PM »
I know you're trying to build something close to the HM300s, but if anyone is curious, here is the Anatomy of the HM341s posted by KayOne

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=131905.0

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Re: Exhaust questions for tuning experts
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2014, 11:14:22 PM »
This is a side issue, but if you want really good reading material on your own pipe design, i can recommend this book. I've got this in hardcover & had it for about 20 years. Brilliant book and explains everything.

http://www.amazon.com/Scientific-Exhaust-Systems-Engineering-Performance/dp/0837603099

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Exhaust questions for tuning experts
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2014, 07:16:31 AM »
Just to add to the conversation, exhaust design boils down to two main principles.

1) Flow momentum: Momentum = mass * velocity - The exhaust gases inside the exhaust port and within the exhaust itself have mass. When mass is in motion it has momentum which increases linearly with it's velocity. This means that it tends to want to stay in motion and the tendancy (or the force or pressure difference it can create) increases proportionally with speed. (We can assume for the sake of argument that the mass within exhaust system is relatively constant).

So, the exhaust gases are flowing through the exhaust at some speed when the exhaust valve begins to close and starts to cause a restriction to the flow. The mass of the exhaust has momentum and so it wants to stay at the same velocity. This momentum creates a pressure difference at the exhaust port which tends to "pull" the exhaust gases out. (imagine cruising down the highway and slamming on your brakes ...)

By this we could say that having a very small exhaust diameter would increase the exhaust velocity and thus the momentum ... so the smaller the better, right?! Not quite... we also have to consider the friction effect...

2) Flow Friction - Flow in a pipe always has friction. Any gas or liquid flowing in a pipe will have friction. Pipe friction is related to the *square* of the exhaust gas velocity. The friction within the pipe causes pressure drop within the exhaust gas. Since the pressure difference between the exhaust gases within the cylinder/exhaust system relative to the atmospheric pressure is the driving factor that causes the exhaust to flow we can say: The more friction within an exhaust system, the less flow there will be with a given pressure differential.

The part that makes it interesting is that the exhaust velocity at low engine speeds is relatively low and so the friction is very low. As the exhaust velocity increases (with engine speed), the friction increases exponentially ... or FASTER than that of the momentum effect. So, at high exhaust velocities the friction effect becomes DOMINANT in the system.

It's a balance.

Smaller exhaust ID benefit = more exhaust velocity = more momentum = more torque at low end
Smaller exhaust ID negative = more exhaust velocity = more friction/resistance to flow = less HP at the high end

Larger exhaust ID benefit = less exhaust velocity = less friction/resistance to flow = more HP at the high end
Large exhaust ID negative = less exhaust velocity = less momentum = less low end torque



Hope this helps,

IW


Offline flybox1

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Re: Exhaust questions for tuning experts
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2014, 12:55:49 PM »
Hey Terry,
If you're in need of a good TIG guy, contact Eric.  http://performanceweldingservice.com/
He's got a shop at his house and has VERY reasonable rates.  A few bikes in there, too.
If you speak with him...tell him Rob w the white CB750 sent you  ;)
I know its a little out of your way, but believe me,  he's worth it.
PM me if you want more info.
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

Past Bikes
1974 550K0 (stock), 1973 CB350F (stock), 1983 Yamaha XS400K (POS)
77/78 cool 2 member #3
"Knowledge without mileage equals bullsh!t" - Henry Rollins

"This is my CB. There are many like it, but this one is mine…"

AJK

  • Guest
Re: Exhaust questions for tuning experts
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2014, 02:55:45 PM »
To add to what IW has said,

There is also the scavenging and tuned pipe length that needs to be considered. 4-4 is the simplest setup, but 4-1 & 4-2-1 gets more complicated due to the interactions of the sound pulses up (and down) the pipe(s) and helps torque in some areas of the rpm range and hinders it elsewhere. The pipe lengths and interactions can be designed in a way to help spread torque as well.

Ideally, you'd design a pipe that sings when your in your rpm range that you want to make the most torque.

When an exhaust port opens, a pressure pulse is generated, it makes its way down to the end of the pipe at the speed of sound in hot air where it hits normal atmospheric pressure. What happens here is an inversion of the pulse takes place and travels back up the pipe towards the exhaust valve. If the cam profile, intake and exhaust ports are also breathing correctly, then during the overlap area of the cam the inlet valve has started to open slightly, so that negative pulse (a slight vacuum) will help pull in fresh charge from the intake before piston motion has even started doing any of the work. More exhaust baffling dampens/reduces the pulse and rounds it off so its less effective.

All naturally aspirated performance engines, esp formula 1 have made use of this for years to acheive the best volumetric efficiency they can get. Its poor mans supercharging.

Regarding what IW says, the concept is easily observed with a water hose with a turnable nozzle on the end. Turned to one end, you get restriction & little flow. On the other end, you get flow but little pressure. There is a happy medium in the middle where the water squirts out the furthest. So its the pressure thats doing the work, but the cross section within the restrictor has to be chosen such that the pressure remains at its highest whilst allowing maximum flow. If too much of an opening is present (like too large an exhaust pipe), then you are removing the pressures ability to create flow. This is why exhaust systems need back pressure. Too large an overall diameter also kills momentum as IW has mentioned. Lots of people end up putting pipes on that are too large and end up hurting a lot of midrange torque that would otherwise be available to them.

The same is true for the intake side. If you look at a lot of modern sportsbikes, open the airbox and you will see that the trumpets for 1 & 4 and shorter than 2 & 3. This is to spread the torque so that bike has a more linear power delivery instead of a peak in a particular area of the rpm range.

You can see from the above, that pipe design is really coupled with cam profile and this is coupled with head flow. They all go together as a system.

Didn't want to complicate the issue, but its noteworthy that there is a lot of physics involved. Anyhow, you just want to get some pipes made up so copying something that works is probably the best bet.

Black 750K8

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Re: Exhaust questions for tuning experts
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2014, 07:18:00 AM »
Hey Terry,  I think you'd run into some jetting/carb tuning no matter what.  How about 2 into ones with two of their quiet core mufflers.  I'm really pleased with mine, and the backpressure is substantial.

What 2 into 1 system did you use and where did you get it. I have some that came with the bike but are showing there age and I don't see any markings on them. They sound good to me and they turn out at the end.