Author Topic: Steering head beariings (Read 13076 times)

kach_me · « **on:** August 05, 2006, 04:35:31 PM »

I need to replace my steering head bearings. Anyone have a simple, step-by-step of how to do so? (with pictures?) I would like to attempt this repair as I think that I can do it, but I don't want to foul things up by just jumpin' in blind either.

I've got a 1976 CB750 and I'm thinking about using tapered bearings instead of ball bearings. Any thoughts? Also, will the tapered bearings make the bike handle better or will they simply wear longer? Or am I just plain full of #$%* on my thought process?

cbjunkie · « **Reply #1 on:** August 05, 2006, 05:03:40 PM »

kach - this is a really good place to start...HONDAMAN

http://www.sohc4.us/forums/index.php?topic=7401.0

super pasty white guy · « **Reply #2 on:** August 05, 2006, 05:19:00 PM »

I just did this- The timkin numbers in the HondaMan post are no longer correct. I wound up using an "All Balls" kit purchased off ebay. Simple and easy. If you want to go timken, contact hondaman- he's working on making them fit correctly.

DAve

cbjunkie · « **Reply #3 on:** August 05, 2006, 05:22:33 PM »

good call pasty - i went with ALL BALL as well - recommend you go to Z1 Enterprises for these.

Bodain · « **Reply #4 on:** August 05, 2006, 05:37:19 PM »

I did it. Pretty easy. I see percieve no difference from individual stock bearings so unless you really need it. Why waste the dollars.

750goes · « **Reply #5 on:** August 05, 2006, 06:25:25 PM »

If your old balls are worn out, then it's time to change them.

Instead of stuffing around with replacing races, checking old balls, regreasing old balls, dropping old balls when removing them and taking two hours to find the rotten little buggers, it really is easy to change them to tapered bearings.

Just have all the necessary tools ready and be methodical about the process.

When I replaced mine, I had the triple clamp powdercoated, and this didn't help in pressing the bottom bearing onto the clamp.
Knocking out the old races is simple - screwdriver and hammer from the inside of the steering neck. Just work you way around the race with a couple of hits each time, it won't take long for it to fall out.

The rest is easily done, you may need someone with a hydraulic press to fit the bottom bearing on the triple clamp, don't forget your spacer washer at the bottom either.

Last of all don't forget to pack the grease into those bearings..

Go get dirty...

Dave K · « **Reply #6 on:** August 05, 2006, 07:00:48 PM »

I did mine about a dozen years ago. My bike had over 40,000 miles on it and the original were getting "notchy" feeling. On a brain fart one night about midnight, I felt the urge to do it, since I had the tapered bearing kit on hand. I was riding the bike by around 2am. It was a simple straight forward job. Does the bike handle better? Well yes, better then it did with the wore out bearings. I feel it is the only way to go, if you are in need of replacing these bearings anyhow.

HondaMan · « **Reply #7 on:** August 05, 2006, 09:13:21 PM »

I'm currently making a "pictorial tutorial" of this process, for the CB750. At the moment, I have the upper beariing cups ground to size (10 sets) to use the Timken 07100 stock size bearing. I'm now working on the L45(nnn) series lower bearings, cups and races, or some combination that will work.
The parts I used to install in CB750/500 in 1972 (30mm I.D. lower bearings) are not made anymore, and the combination of parts often used in those (green-boxed) Japanese "kits" perform poorly over time. So, I'm working up a Timken "kit", or maybe FAG bearings, as they are just as tough, because mine went 90,000+ miles before developing an ever-so-slight notch.

I will also be making spacers to fit these bearings. The typical installation should take about half a day, if you've never done it before and if you have the tools on hand.

puppytrax · « **Reply #8 on:** August 06, 2006, 09:08:41 AM »

Quote from: HondaMan on August 05, 2006, 09:13:21 PM

I will also be making spacers to fit these bearings. The typical installation should take about half a day, if you've never done it before and if you have the tools on hand.

I would be interested in buying a "kit" for my CB500.

I can still recall the "notchy" feeling of worn ball races on my old Triumph. Not very confidence-inspiring...

HondaMan · « **Reply #9 on:** August 09, 2006, 03:44:06 PM »

If the notches get big enough, you can ride hands-off for miles in Nevada!

cbjunkie · « **Reply #10 on:** August 09, 2006, 09:21:04 PM »

the voice of experience!

thanks for all the great advice, Hman - i'm re-installing the old set and moving to Nevada!

puppytrax · « **Reply #11 on:** August 10, 2006, 07:03:43 AM »

MR Cycles still lists the 22-1011 tapered bearing set...

MR Cycles

ALL BALLS STRG STEM BRGS
22-1011 $42.95

* Designed as a drop-in replacement to upgrade OEM ball-type bearings to taper bearings (where ball-type bearings are used by the OEM)
* Designed as a replacement taper bearing seat (where taper bearings are original equipment)
* Kits come complete with both upper and lower taper bearing cups and cones and seals (both top and bottom seals are included in most kits, if applicable)
* Tapered roller bearings decrease maintenance along with less wear and longer life

http://www.mrcycles.com/eshopprod_cat_2411-19104_product_257675_keyword_22-1011.STEERING_STEM_BEARINGS.htm

Also a very nice chart showing which bearings interchange with which models...

BTW: This is the bearing set that Stephen Bottcher used in his writeup in the Suspension FAQ...

http://www.stephenbottcher.net/Honda/tapered.htm

Thank You, Sir! Good writeup!!

kach_me · « **Reply #12 on:** August 10, 2006, 03:20:53 PM »

THANK YOU! Just what I was looking for... $42.95 sounds pretty reasonable too!

puppytrax · « **Reply #13 on:** August 10, 2006, 03:53:04 PM »

Quote from: kach_me on August 10, 2006, 03:20:53 PM

THANK YOU! Just what I was looking for... $42.95 sounds pretty reasonable too!

The writeup is excellent...but I'm a bit confused as to why Stephen thought he needed the 4mm spacer in the first place...and he was a bit unclear as to whether it actually *was* needed or not...I assume it is not...

I put in an order for some parts including the 22-1011 kit (sorry, Hondaman!)...Haven't heard from MR as to it being available, but they typically do not notify you unless it is *not* available...

It is really amazing what all is still available for these old SOHC4's...the native Japanese market must drive the continued availability of this stuff...

cb650 · « **Reply #14 on:** August 10, 2006, 04:31:52 PM »

My son likes the all balls sticker in the kit.

Terry

HondaMan · « **Reply #15 on:** August 13, 2006, 07:13:12 PM »

Quote from: puppytrax on August 10, 2006, 03:53:04 PM

Quote from: kach_me on August 10, 2006, 03:20:53 PM
THANK YOU! Just what I was looking for... $42.95 sounds pretty reasonable too!

The writeup is excellent...but I'm a bit confused as to why Stephen thought he needed the 4mm spacer in the first place...and he was a bit unclear as to whether it actually *was* needed or not...I assume it is not...

I put in an order for some parts including the 22-1011 kit (sorry, Hondaman!)...Haven't heard from MR as to it being available, but they typically do not notify you unless it is *not* available...

It is really amazing what all is still available for these old SOHC4's...the native Japanese market must drive the continued availability of this stuff...

I'd be interested in knowing how the installation goes, and how the longevity pans out. Take pix, if you can. I you want, forward them to me by PM and I'll include them in the "step-by-step" thing I'm making. I can show the "standard" method alongside the All Balls method - or parts.

There is also a type of ball bearing that might drop right in: it's a side-mounted ball-loading type. Very interesting: I'm trying to get one to try it out. I have a spare frame for this little "project".

puppytrax · « **Reply #16 on:** August 13, 2006, 07:23:00 PM »

Quote from: HondaMan on August 13, 2006, 07:13:12 PM

I'd be interested in knowing how the installation goes...

...

...

I'm sure whoever does it will post bearing manufacturer and part numbers, as well as any problems or concerns in installation. Longevity...I don't know about you, but if they last as long as the OEM bearings, then I'll be long gone before these even wear in...

BTW: Z1 has tapered stem bearings also; K&L (?) brand -

Steering Bearing SSH750 26x48.5x15.2 30x50x14.4
KL31-5830

K&L

-----------

Steering Bearing SSH750 26x48.5x15.2mm 30x50x14.4mm

Fits Honda CB350/F/F1/G/K2-K4 CL350/K2-K4 SL350/K2/K3 CB360/G/T CJ360T CL360/K1 CB400A/F/T1/T2/T CM400A/C/E/T CB450/K1-K7/SC/T CL450/K2-K6 CM450A/C/E CB500/K1/K2/T CX500/C/D FT500 GB500 GL500/I VT500C/FT CB550F/K/K1/SC CB650/SC CX650C GL650/I VT700C CB750A/F/K GL1000/L

$43.16

http://z1enterprises.com/detail.aspx?ID=1503

I included the All Balls kit with an order of Honda parts from MR Cycles, but the Z1 kit is comparably priced (if not the same kit)...

HondaMan · « **Reply #17 on:** August 14, 2006, 08:08:41 PM »

Yep, that's what I'm trying to do. On the lowers, they've had someone grind the OD on a 55mm bearing cup to 50mm, then bored the 29mm ID to 30mm. It's expensive! The uppers weren't so bad, since only the OD of the cup had to be ground.

GoatBaSS · « **Reply #18 on:** August 14, 2006, 09:01:46 PM »

You teknikal jar gone confuse Goatbass. Not smart like others. Partsnmore.com send taper kit. Used 1" around pipe and hammer. Tinkle. All done now...

benny365 · « **Reply #19 on:** September 13, 2006, 07:39:36 AM »

does anyone know the dimensions for the steering stem bearing for a 1973 cb750.

Steering Bearing SSH750 26x48.5x15.2mm 30x50x14.4mm

will this fit a 73 750 also?

Basically I'm looking for the dimensions so I can just go to a local store and buy the bearings

thanks

pelicanwheel · « **Reply #20 on:** September 13, 2006, 10:59:03 AM »

perfect timing for this post today! I plan to install my all balls kit tonight! I have a question though. I have the kit as pictured in the "puppytrac" post on page one of this thread. My kit also came with two additional washers of two different thicknesses. The weak instructions says to measure the stacked height of the lower stem with the original bearings to determine if I need the washers with their kit. Well the problem is that it's too late to measure! I also don't know where they mean to use the washers, although I'm pretty sure.

Question:

Why would one Honda 750 of a given year need a washer, but another in that same year would not? Aren't they all the same in those dimensions?

Are the stems different between years, hence the reason for possibly needing the spacer?

So do the cups get pressed in as far as it will go inside the frame? There appears to be a ridge that would allow it to bottom out on top of...is this correct?

I will take plenty of pics and post tomorrow - hopefully I'll get response before tonight.

Pelican

pelicanwheel · « **Reply #21 on:** September 13, 2006, 11:01:56 AM »

one more thing..the washers with the rubber ring around it (as pictured on page one of this tread), are they suppose to go on the triple tree FIRST, followed by the roller bearings, then the whold thing fit into the frame that has the cups pressed in?

And if I need a space, I assume it goes on the triple tree bottom first, then the washer with the rubber ring, then the bearings, then install into the frame with the cups pressed in.

Does this sound right?

super pasty white guy · « **Reply #22 on:** September 13, 2006, 12:03:27 PM »

That's how I did it when I did mine.

Dave

benny365 · « **Reply #23 on:** September 13, 2006, 01:04:13 PM »

Quote from: pelicanwheel on September 13, 2006, 10:59:03 AM

perfect timing for this post today! I plan to install my all balls kit tonight!

Does your kit give dimensions of the bearing and or could you measure them for me?

pelicanwheel · « **Reply #24 on:** September 13, 2006, 08:37:22 PM »

ok benny365 and Hondaman:

Here are the pics with measurements as well as markings on the all balls kit:

On the cups:

kml 26-485h
(the smaller bearing of the two and the "4" looks funny but I think its a "4")

kml 30-50H (the larger bearing)

Its the same numbers on the bearings as the cups they fit in.

pelicanwheel · « **Reply #25 on:** September 13, 2006, 08:38:29 PM »

more pics

pelicanwheel · « **Reply #26 on:** September 13, 2006, 08:39:16 PM »

last pics

HondaMan · « **Reply #27 on:** September 13, 2006, 09:03:38 PM »

Great work, Pelican! Those are all the right numbers, spacers and all.

The KML 30-50H interests me: that's the right sizes, but the proportions of the outer race suggest the same problem I have: someone had to grind them, leaving a thinwall cup (not a problem, though, at these loads). The triple tree tube is 30mm at the bottom (ID) and the steering head is 50mm, more accurately 50.05mm, at the bottom. One can buy 50.05mm cups, but the matching bearing is 26mm ID, a lot of ID grinding. One can buy 30mm ID bearings, but they now only fit into 55mm cups - again, a lot of grinding. In the early 1970s I could buy these KML sizes, so someone is manufacturing them again.

But, I've been too busy with swingarm bushingss for SOHC-ers lately to finish the steering head bearing project. Someday....

pelicanwheel · « **Reply #28 on:** September 14, 2006, 08:56:50 AM »

Hondaman -

Unless they sent a lot of time polishing, the bottom cup doesn't appear to be altered from original manufacture. In other words, it doesn't look like it was ground down to fit. Now of course they could have simply taken the time to polish after grinding, but that's a lot of work.

The instructions says to measure the original stack height of the ball bearings. It's too late for me now as I have aready distroyed the race on the lower stem. I'm afraid to put the new rollers on without a spacer, then find out I need it , then screw up the rollers taking it off to put the spacer on. How can I know for certain before hand?

Thanks,

Pelican

HondaMan · « **Reply #29 on:** January 01, 2007, 02:26:06 PM »

Quote from: pelicanwheel on September 14, 2006, 08:56:50 AM

Hondaman -

Unless they sent a lot of time polishing, the bottom cup doesn't appear to be altered from original manufacture. In other words, it doesn't look like it was ground down to fit. Now of course they could have simply taken the time to polish after grinding, but that's a lot of work.

The instructions says to measure the original stack height of the ball bearings. It's too late for me now as I have aready distroyed the race on the lower stem. I'm afraid to put the new rollers on without a spacer, then find out I need it , then screw up the rollers taking it off to put the spacer on. How can I know for certain before hand?

Thanks,

Pelican

Sorry to be so long in replying: I missed your post.

The tightness you're experiencing is due to the post being 50.02mm outside dimension and the bearing 50.00 ID, an interference fit.

By now, I hope you've found out that the spacer should be installed. If the bearing is that tight going on, then emery-paper the steering stem and clean it with steel wool to make it slide a little better. Then grease everything (after a real good cleaning) and assemble. If you want to install/uninstall the bearing, use 2 flat screwdrivers on either side of the bearing and steering crown, tapping them in a little at a time on alternate sides until it comes loose. Usually, rust over the years has expanded the tube a little, plus the interference fit, which is not necessary, makes things harder.

News:

Author Topic: Steering head beariings (Read 13076 times)

benny365

benny365