Author Topic: Power Arc Ignition w/ VOES  (Read 9409 times)

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Offline banzaibob

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Re: Power Arc Ignition w/ VOES
« Reply #50 on: July 10, 2013, 07:29:58 AM »
1) Disassembling the engine is not out of the question but as a first (or even second) tier solution to this problem, it is quite possibly unnecessary.   

2) Choices in fuels across the nation vary widely.  Leaving this engine at the mercy of that variation is NO solution. 
2011 BMW R1200RT
1976 BMW R90/6
1977 Harley Davidson XLCR
1974 Honda CB750
1979 Honda XR/FT500
1976 Honda CB750F
1971 Honda CB350 Diesel conversion
1976 Honda GL1000

Offline nokrome

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Re: Power Arc Ignition w/ VOES
« Reply #51 on: July 10, 2013, 08:05:25 AM »
banziabob, did you ever say what kind of ignition you are running now?
  what is your current total deg. of advance?
    at what rpm do you currently reach your total deg of advance?
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Offline banzaibob

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Re: Power Arc Ignition w/ VOES
« Reply #52 on: July 10, 2013, 12:11:13 PM »
I am running a Dyna S.  Total advance is to the stock hash marks on the stock advance.  I cannot say what degree that is off of the top of my head.  Full advance is at 2500rpm.
2011 BMW R1200RT
1976 BMW R90/6
1977 Harley Davidson XLCR
1974 Honda CB750
1979 Honda XR/FT500
1976 Honda CB750F
1971 Honda CB350 Diesel conversion
1976 Honda GL1000

Offline nokrome

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Re: Power Arc Ignition w/ VOES
« Reply #53 on: July 10, 2013, 03:24:00 PM »
I am running a Dyna S.  Total advance is to the stock hash marks on the stock advance.  I cannot say what degree that is off of the top of my head.  Full advance is at 2500rpm.
  OK,  I really dont see how Running a VOES with a power arc is gonna help,
   you wouldnt want to retard your timing any from the stock curve and the VOES would really only take advantage of the more advanced curves available with the power arc.
   it really sounds like you are dealing with either too much compression or too low of an octane rating.
Funny thing about regret is...... its better to regret something you have done than to regret something you haven't done.

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Power Arc Ignition w/ VOES
« Reply #54 on: July 10, 2013, 05:11:15 PM »
   it really sounds like you are dealing with either too much compression or too low of an octane rating.


+1, I'm always surprised at how some folks run around in ever decreasing circles to try to circumvent the obvious............... ;D
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Power Arc Ignition w/ VOES
« Reply #55 on: July 10, 2013, 05:22:28 PM »
   it really sounds like you are dealing with either too much compression or too low of an octane rating.


+1, I'm always surprised at how some folks run around in ever decreasing circles to try to circumvent the obvious............... ;D

Yep..... 8)
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Offline banzaibob

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Re: Power Arc Ignition w/ VOES
« Reply #56 on: July 10, 2013, 06:24:18 PM »
Perhaps this is getting lost in the translation.  More than likely I have not been as descriptive about the problem as I could have.

My leaning toward this being a tuning problem is because increasing the main jet size has helped this problem significantly.  However I feel that I am at the point of diminishing returns where jetting richer is going to start fouling plugs (just my impression at this point, yes, I will try 132.5's).  Truth be told if need be, I could probably ride around all day (on 91 octane gas) without a single ping.  I would have to carefully adjust my riding technique as to be mindful of NOT over-throttling during periods of low engine rpm.  I DO NOT want to do that because if the problem is now merely annoying, under severe conditions it will be destructive.  Murphy's law is manifest.

Again, perhaps I have not articulated well.  I am close to a solution.  My focus on ignition systems was to initially see if anyone knew of a "black box" solution.  In an early post I described how I had a 1st generation Power Commander on a Harley that allowed the user to plot their own spark map on an X-Y grid (solved my problem perfectly).  In this case my "dream device" would eliminate the stock advance mechanism that I am now using.  This small "spark computer of my dreams" would allow me to plot on X, engine rpm and Y, vacuum pressure. 

In an earlier post, Cqyqte described in excellent detail how he was able to eliminate what sounds like a remarkably similar problem using a VOES in concert with a Power Arc ignition.  Point being that perhaps there are solutions that DO NOT require going to the airport to fill up every couple of days on $6/gal avgas OR taking a smooth running, quiet, non oil leaking engine apart.  Discuss, please.   
2011 BMW R1200RT
1976 BMW R90/6
1977 Harley Davidson XLCR
1974 Honda CB750
1979 Honda XR/FT500
1976 Honda CB750F
1971 Honda CB350 Diesel conversion
1976 Honda GL1000

Offline scottly

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Re: Power Arc Ignition w/ VOES
« Reply #57 on: July 10, 2013, 08:12:18 PM »
I'm running pump gas, 91 octane.  I've also tried raising the needles in the carb one notch, it didn't help so I put it back.  I have a Dyna S on it right now.  I've tried stiffer springs on the advance to where full advance was 3300 rpm instead of 2500.  It didn't work.  I'm under the impression that the Power Arc AND the Dyna 2000 both can accommodate a vacuum switch, true? 


If slowing the mechanical advance had no effect, I doubt your problem can be solved with a vacuum switch. With the stiffer springs installed, did you try retarding the initial timing?

Did you miss this post? If you can't stop the pinging by retarding the timing, the VOES will NOT help.
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Offline scottly

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Re: Power Arc Ignition w/ VOES
« Reply #58 on: July 10, 2013, 08:20:07 PM »
Perhaps this is getting lost in the translation.  More than likely I have not been as descriptive about the problem as I could have.

My leaning toward this being a tuning problem is because increasing the main jet size has helped this problem significantly.  However I feel that I am at the point of diminishing returns where jetting richer is going to start fouling plugs (just my impression at this point, yes, I will try 132.5's).  Truth be told if need be, I could probably ride around all day (on 91 octane gas) without a single ping.  I would have to carefully adjust my riding technique as to be mindful of NOT over-throttling during periods of low engine rpm. Discuss, please.
If the pinging occurs at low throttle openings and low RPM, look to the pilot jets and/or needles, rather than the mains; good grief man, I'm running 11+ compression with serious "coking" in my chambers on pump gas with no noticeable pinging. Of course, I do have Real carburetors with accelerator pumps...  ;)
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline 74750k4

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Re: Power Arc Ignition w/ VOES
« Reply #59 on: July 12, 2013, 10:21:40 AM »
What is a better choice?  the Power Arc, or  Dyna 2000 models?

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Power Arc Ignition w/ VOES
« Reply #60 on: July 12, 2013, 06:04:17 PM »
What is a better choice?  the Power Arc, or  Dyna 2000 models?

I'd buy the Dyna. ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline banzaibob

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Re: Power Arc Ignition w/ VOES
« Reply #61 on: July 12, 2013, 11:40:53 PM »
As an aside, I still do not think that the jetting is correct on this bike.  The first opportunity I get I am going to go one side richer on the pilot jets and one notch richer on the needles.  I think I am also going to go one size leaner on the main jets back down to #128's.

As far as the ignition question goes, it appears as if there are only 2 popular and accepted choices in ignitions; Dyna and Power Arc.  I'm sure that there must be other options out there but I cannot seem to find anyone who will discuss them.  I am still curious about EITHER the availability OR creation of a device that simply replaces the advance mechanism with a fully digital, fully programmable device.  I know, the ignition won't help with my "pinging" etc., etc.  Being able to create my own spark map certainly couldn't hurt. 

Forget for a moment that I'm talking about Honda CB750's with "pinging" problems.  Modern engine management systems designed to run fuel injection in concert with spark mapping are widely available and have been so for a long time.  My question would be 1) are there spark mapping devices on the market that take the electrical signal generated by spinning magnets, opening contact points, etc that would convert that signal into a digital signal allowing it to be controllable via a software based system?  and 2) How hard would it be to make such a beast? 

I dropped out of electrical engineering school right after I learned how to solder so it should also be obvious by now that I am thoroughly NOT afraid to ask a stupid question. 
2011 BMW R1200RT
1976 BMW R90/6
1977 Harley Davidson XLCR
1974 Honda CB750
1979 Honda XR/FT500
1976 Honda CB750F
1971 Honda CB350 Diesel conversion
1976 Honda GL1000

Offline banzaibob

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Re: Power Arc Ignition w/ VOES
« Reply #62 on: July 13, 2013, 01:56:12 AM »
http://electronic-ignition-system.com/direct-ignition-tci/default.asp

http://electronic-ignition-system.com/universal-ignition/software.asp

I think that I would rather deal with software that I could tailor to my own needs rather than 4 or 5 preset advance curves.  The big question?  Would it work on my engine?
2011 BMW R1200RT
1976 BMW R90/6
1977 Harley Davidson XLCR
1974 Honda CB750
1979 Honda XR/FT500
1976 Honda CB750F
1971 Honda CB350 Diesel conversion
1976 Honda GL1000

Offline dave500

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Re: Power Arc Ignition w/ VOES
« Reply #63 on: July 13, 2013, 03:08:29 AM »
dont change three jets at once,youll lose the plot and be doing it forever,see what each one individualy results in first.

Offline banzaibob

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Re: Power Arc Ignition w/ VOES
« Reply #64 on: July 13, 2013, 03:47:21 AM »
Absolutely.  For the most part I'm plotting in my head what the testing trajectory will be.
2011 BMW R1200RT
1976 BMW R90/6
1977 Harley Davidson XLCR
1974 Honda CB750
1979 Honda XR/FT500
1976 Honda CB750F
1971 Honda CB350 Diesel conversion
1976 Honda GL1000

Offline dave500

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Re: Power Arc Ignition w/ VOES
« Reply #65 on: July 13, 2013, 03:59:54 AM »
sounds like you have a moon shot in mind?

Offline banzaibob

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Re: Power Arc Ignition w/ VOES
« Reply #66 on: July 13, 2013, 11:35:24 AM »
It is the weekend, maybe just one shot.
2011 BMW R1200RT
1976 BMW R90/6
1977 Harley Davidson XLCR
1974 Honda CB750
1979 Honda XR/FT500
1976 Honda CB750F
1971 Honda CB350 Diesel conversion
1976 Honda GL1000