Author Topic: school me on points  (Read 6323 times)

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Offline lucky

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Re: school me on points
« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2013, 11:14:42 AM »
Just get new points and condensers.
Always replace them as a set.

If you are going to keep conventional points then you will need a dwell meter from Sears. A MUST HAVE with points.

IF you cannot get the dwell in spec and the points gap at the same time you will need to buy a new set of points.

You cannot adjust points that have one side that has pits(holes),and the other side with peaks sticking up. Even if you file the peaks off of one side and adjust they will still not be right.

Check the dwell and you will see. A dwell meter tells you how many degrees of rotation the points are building up a field. If it is not enough the spark will be very weak.

Several companies sell electronic ignition to replace those points sets.

Offline andrewk

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Re: school me on points
« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2013, 11:21:29 AM »
Quote
And although the CB series 500-750 bikes are my favorite of all time Honda has discontinued all but a few items for these great bikes. Luckily their popularity gives a good after market and used parts supply.

You should talk to a Honda dealer.  You can get most any maintenance item, and although there are some things that Honda doesn't make anymore, the number of OEM parts available for these things dwarfs that of 35 year old Outdoor Power equipment.  Some people seem to think that Honda doesn't make any parts for these things anymore, but that's just not true. 

Offline toytuff

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Re: school me on points
« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2013, 11:23:10 AM »
Looks like a trip to the Auto store tomorrow.

tt

Offline TwoTired

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Re: school me on points
« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2013, 11:25:28 AM »
what do these points files look like?
I did a google search for "contact points file".

http://www.northstatehc.com/store/index.php?crn=412&rn=2460&action=show_detail
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200396157_200396157

The key is to use an abrasive material that is harder than the point metal and is not sacrificial, meaning it doesn't shed bits of itself in the performance of removing irregular contact surface metal.

For the burnisher, I found this:
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/22-1235

Probably other electronic tool supply sources will sell them as well.

You may also me interested in this article:
http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/02/15/points-and-burnishing-files-tool-time/
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Bru-tom

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Re: school me on points
« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2013, 11:30:22 AM »
many thanks once again TT :D i have found a box full of files. also some "smooth" burnishing tools.  ;)

Offline andrewk

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Re: school me on points
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2013, 11:39:51 AM »
My burnishing tool is my old worn out points file. :P Cut 'em with the new, burnish with the old.  Although for what they sell "the real thing" for, there's no real excuse not to have one.  Thanks for the link.

Offline toytuff

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Re: school me on points
« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2013, 11:47:46 AM »
many thanks once again TT :D i have found a box full of files. also some "smooth" burnishing tools.  ;)

Me? What did I do?

tt

Offline LesterPiglet

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Re: school me on points
« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2013, 11:49:13 AM »
many thanks once again TT :D i have found a box full of files. also some "smooth" burnishing tools.  ;)

Me? What did I do?

tt
TwoTired.  :)
'Then' and 'than' are completely different words and have completely different meanings. Same with 'of' and 'have'. Set and sit. There, their and they're. Draw and drawer. Could care less/couldn't care less. Bought/brought FFS.


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Offline dohcdelsol93

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Re: school me on points
« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2013, 12:36:51 PM »
Quote
And although the CB series 500-750 bikes are my favorite of all time Honda has discontinued all but a few items for these great bikes. Luckily their popularity gives a good after market and used parts supply.

You should talk to a Honda dealer.  You can get most any maintenance item, and although there are some things that Honda doesn't make anymore, the number of OEM parts available for these things dwarfs that of 35 year old Outdoor Power equipment.  Some people seem to think that Honda doesn't make any parts for these things anymore, but that's just not true.

actually...I am a honda dealer...but a honda outdoor power equipment dealer.  Quite a few of the honda filters, gaskets, seals, o-rigs and carb parts I can order directly since they are used in an outdoor power equipment or generator applications, if the OEM part number comes up i my system I get the part for dealer cost :).   
i'd rather be sailing

Offline dohcdelsol93

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Re: school me on points
« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2013, 12:43:37 PM »
Just get new points and condensers.
Always replace them as a set.

If you are going to keep conventional points then you will need a dwell meter from Sears. A MUST HAVE with points.

IF you cannot get the dwell in spec and the points gap at the same time you will need to buy a new set of points.

You cannot adjust points that have one side that has pits(holes),and the other side with peaks sticking up. Even if you file the peaks off of one side and adjust they will still not be right. Weak spark.

Check the dwell and you will see.

I'll check into a dwell, i do have new OEM replacement points on order.  I've never used one in any of the applications i've worked on, i'm guessing these are mostly for a unit with multiple points on a single unit.  I don't see equipment with points often anymore...and i usually try my best to talk the customer into taking them somewhere else!!! Have i mentioned i hated points systems?

Also noted that the stock horns on my land cruiser....also have points in them! They went into the trash can because of my hate for points!!!



i'd rather be sailing

Offline dohcdelsol93

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Re: school me on points
« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2013, 12:46:11 PM »
snake is a common black snake. 

We have copper heads in this area, rattle snakes are rare.

No copper heads, winters are too cold although you can make a 2 hour drive east or south and find them so it's possible that some could be in the area and just not have a huge population.  They look a lot like the water snakes...so they could possibly blend in at a distance.

So long as the snake stays out of my vehicles, house and building...i will live in peace with him.

i don't kill anything but mosquitoes and ants

i'd rather be sailing

Offline dave500

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Re: school me on points
« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2013, 01:00:33 PM »
What sort of snake is that? Is it dangerous? St. Paddy drove all the snakes out of Ireland.   ::)

hey lester,what did saint paddy say when he drove those snakes out of ireland?"YOU GOT YOUR SEAT BELTS ON BACK THERE?"

Offline TwoTired

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Re: school me on points
« Reply #37 on: July 07, 2013, 01:04:35 PM »
Dealerships made money on the parts sales mark up as well as the labor.   Of course a dealership tech would prefer to sell new parts rather than fix or recondition old ones.   I think many techs got paid flat rate for a task, no matter how long it took them to finish the job, and it took less time to replace points than make the ones installed work like new.  Certainly a dealership wouldn't teach their techs how to recondition points to work as new for customer vehicles, even if the tech was hourly.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline dohcdelsol93

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Re: school me on points
« Reply #38 on: July 07, 2013, 01:27:18 PM »
Dealerships made money on the parts sales mark up as well as the labor.   Of course a dealership tech would prefer to sell new parts rather than fix or recondition old ones.   I think many techs got paid flat rate for a task, no matter how long it took them to finish the job, and it took less time to replace points than make the ones installed work like new.  Certainly a dealership wouldn't teach their techs how to recondition points to work as new for customer vehicles, even if the tech was hourly.



most techs at the bigger dealerships get paid commission.  You get paid X amount of hours for each job....so if the book says you get 2 hours for said job...and you are good at what you do....you can do it in as little as half the time yet still get paid for the 2 hours.  Customer pays for the two hours.

Most technicians will replace with new parts rather than service old parts because of

A) a % of commission on newly sold parts
B) if old parts fail after service you don't get paid to do them the second time

Basically if the tech can't guarantee the repairs 110% out the door they don't want to do the work.  Just cleaning and re calibrating the points on your personal bike is great, it saves you money and you're back on the road.  However from a technicians stand point what IF your condenser fails down the road in 10 or 100 miles. Then the customer thinks whatever you did was wrong and you end up doing a job for free since most technicians don't get an hourly wadge, only a commission.

So the consumer does pay a little more going to the stealership BUT he knows that the work gone into it was done in a manner where the technician doesn't want your bike/car/whatever to come back for the same symptoms anytime soon!!!  So you may have spent a little more but the chances of a returning issue will be slim to none.


My mark up margin on briggs and stratton OEM parts is only about 30-40 %

my mark up margin on Honda parts is 50%

The difference is everyone is a briggs dealer...but with honda we don't have much competition.

I attend service schools every year.  Honda, Kohler, Briggs, etc....I've been doing this since 99...we don't even mention points at our service schools and i'm a Briggs Master service technician.  I probably see more engines with points each year than most motorcycle service shops.  Last year I alone at my shop had over 80K in billable labor hours...and the average shop tickets is maybe 75 bucks (we are talking mostly weedeaters and push mower that sell new for less than 200 bucks)   

Unless you find an oldschool technician I'm not sure that many techs under the age of 35 are comfortable servicing points rather than replacing anymore.    At least not in my area.  The points systems were taken out of production in bikes/cars/power equipment not too long after i began walking back in the early 80s.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 01:33:54 PM by dohcdelsol93 »
i'd rather be sailing

Offline dohcdelsol93

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Re: school me on points
« Reply #39 on: July 07, 2013, 01:35:00 PM »
Dealerships made money on the parts sales mark up as well as the labor.   Of course a dealership tech would prefer to sell new parts rather than fix or recondition old ones.   I think many techs got paid flat rate for a task, no matter how long it took them to finish the job, and it took less time to replace points than make the ones installed work like new.  Certainly a dealership wouldn't teach their techs how to recondition points to work as new for customer vehicles, even if the tech was hourly.



most techs at the bigger dealerships get paid commission.  You get paid X amount of hours for each job....so if the book says you get 2 hours for said job...and you are good at what you do....you can do it in as little as half the time yet still get paid for the 2 hours.  Customer pays for the two hours.

Most technicians will replace with new parts rather than service old parts because of

A) a % of commission on newly sold parts
B) if old parts fail after service you don't get paid to do them the second time

Basically if the tech can't guarantee the repairs 110% out the door they don't want to do the work.  Just cleaning and re calibrating the points on your personal bike is great, it saves you money and you're back on the road.  However from a technicians stand point what IF your condenser fails down the road in 10 or 100 miles. Then the customer thinks whatever you did was wrong and you end up doing a job for free since most technicians don't get an hourly wadge, only a commission.

So the consumer does pay a little more going to the stealership BUT he knows that the work gone into it was done in a manner where the technician doesn't want your bike/car/whatever to come back for the same symptoms anytime soon!!!  So you may have spent a little more but the chances of a returning issue will be slim to none.


My mark up margin on briggs and stratton OEM parts is only about 30-40 %

my mark up margin on Honda parts is 50%

The difference is everyone is a briggs dealer...but with honda we don't have much competition.

I attend service schools every year.  Honda, Kohler, Briggs, etc....I've been doing this since 99...we don't even mention points at our service schools and i'm a Briggs Master service technician.  I probably see more engines with points each year than most motorcycle service shops.  Last year I alone at my shop had over 80K in billable labor hours...and the average shop tickets is maybe 75 bucks (we are talking mostly weedeaters and push mower that sell new for less than 200 bucks).  We are talking large volumes of engines. 

Unless you find an oldschool technician I'm not sure that many techs under the age of 35 are comfortable servicing points rather than replacing anymore.    At least not in my area.  The points systems were taken out of production in bikes/cars/power equipment not too long after i began walking back in the early 80s.
i'd rather be sailing

Offline Gman

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Re: school me on points
« Reply #40 on: July 07, 2013, 02:13:20 PM »
Ha, I finally managed to post something semi-useful that TT didn't get to first.  Only a 3 year wait.   :D   

Someone posted this article link in a thread not too long ago.  Not a bad read.  And, from everything I've heard/read about points, if you do end up having to replace, get TEC or NipponDenso points, as the Daichii points evidently have some play that makes them hard to set correctly.

http://www.examiner.com/article/get-to-the-point-s

Good luck!
Cheers,
G
'76 CB550K
Stock airbox, MotoGPWerks 4-1, HondaMan ignition, Lesters

Offline dohcdelsol93

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Re: school me on points
« Reply #41 on: July 07, 2013, 02:30:10 PM »
i dont know brand...whatever 4into1 sells
i'd rather be sailing

Offline lucky

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Re: school me on points
« Reply #42 on: July 07, 2013, 02:55:48 PM »
what do these points files look like?
I did a google search for "contact points file".

http://www.northstatehc.com/store/index.php?crn=412&rn=2460&action=show_detail
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200396157_200396157

The key is to use an abrasive material that is harder than the point metal and is not sacrificial, meaning it doesn't shed bits of itself in the performance of removing irregular contact surface metal.

For the burnisher, I found this:
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/22-1235

Probably other electronic tool supply sources will sell them as well.

You may also me interested in this article:
http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/02/15/points-and-burnishing-files-tool-time/

You can use black carborundum sandpaper. Fine grit like #320

Offline toytuff

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Re: school me on points
« Reply #43 on: July 07, 2013, 03:03:32 PM »
Ha, I finally managed to post something semi-useful that TT didn't get to first.  Only a 3 year wait.   :D   

Someone posted this article link in a thread not too long ago.  Not a bad read.  And, from everything I've heard/read about points, if you do end up having to replace, get TEC or NipponDenso points, as the Daichii points evidently have some play that makes them hard to set correctly.

http://www.examiner.com/article/get-to-the-point-s

Good luck!
Cheers,
G

 ;D

I need a life huh?

Yeah, I have some of those junk points.

tt

Offline lucky

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Re: school me on points
« Reply #44 on: July 07, 2013, 03:15:46 PM »
When you work at a dealership or at home you will find out soon enough that all of the work you put into getting a set of used points contacts to look decent then after you install them and gap them and set them that you have weak spark.
Then you check the dwell and find out WHY the spark is weak.

It is because the phenolic block that rubs against the points cam is worn down a few thousandths and only one of the sets of points can have the correct gap AND enough dwell and that the 2nd set of points cannot be brought into compliance.


After you go through this several times with several motorcycles you learn to just put in new points and condensers and enjoy riding the motor cycle for many months.

Also DO NOT FORGET to clean the points cam with cleaner and put a light film of high temp grease like disc brake grease so the points cam rides smoothly.

If you look at the dwell meter when the engine is running and the dwell meter needle is bouncing around ,then you clean the points cam and you will see that the dwell meter is steady as a rock while running.


When you work at a dealership you learn that when the customer gets their motorcycle back they want it to run perfect. If it was YOUR motorcycle and you took it to a dealership you expect excellence. And you should get it.

BTW when you give the old parts back to the customer and they see how beat up  the parts are, they always throw them in the trash on the way out of the dealership.

« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 03:20:07 PM by lucky »

Offline toytuff

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Re: school me on points
« Reply #45 on: July 07, 2013, 03:16:01 PM »
FREE! (lower 48)

tt


Offline nccb

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Re: school me on points
« Reply #46 on: July 07, 2013, 03:24:14 PM »
FREE! (lower 48)

tt

Not even going to attempt to try em?  Hell I'll take them if they are free, could always use a backup even if it may be trouble.

Offline neilc

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Re: school me on points
« Reply #47 on: July 07, 2013, 03:40:49 PM »
i am going from a electronic ignition back to a points system,i used to be able to get my bikes running great with points back in the earlier day it just takes a couples of times until you get it down pat

Offline toytuff

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Re: school me on points
« Reply #48 on: July 07, 2013, 03:52:35 PM »
FREE! (lower 48)

tt

Not even going to attempt to try em?  Hell I'll take them if they are free, could always use a backup even if it may be trouble.

Proper points last a long time but if you want them pm address. Not sure when I can get to the po. Tomorrow is dnd day.

tt

Offline seanbarney41

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Re: school me on points
« Reply #49 on: July 07, 2013, 07:17:21 PM »
Am I the only one here that can get a bike running on Daiichi points?...they do sometimes require more fiddling to get timed...so it might take me 25 minutes as opposed to 10...
If it works good, it looks good...