Author Topic: 78 550k carb float height PD46C...and other help!  (Read 5933 times)

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Offline sweet_baby_james

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78 550k carb float height PD46C...and other help!
« on: July 15, 2013, 08:14:36 PM »
Evening everyone,

I have finally go the point of firing up my 78 550k after a full rebuild, motor, carbs the whole nine yards.  I have compression, spark and fuel (in the float bowls at least).  When it try and start it up motor turns over but never appears to fire and will cut out even with full choke.  I am wondering if my float height is not set correctly and there fuel level is below that of the slow speed jet? Is that possible?

I set the float height to 12.5mm following a carb rebuild procedure for PD46A carbs (they call for 14.5mm float height).  I have attached a photo of my floats as they are currently.  What height should I be measuring and where should I take the measurement?

After the motor turns over for a few seconds there is some heat coming off it, so maybe there is fuel getting into the mixture.

I'm lost.  Any help is appreciated!

James

Offline sweet_baby_james

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Re: 78 550k carb float height PD46C...and other help!
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2013, 08:16:08 PM »
Better photo

Offline nhg2112

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Re: 78 550k carb float height PD46C...and other help!
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2013, 08:33:12 PM »
I learned this lesson the hard way...

Height is measured from the highest point of the float. In your case the tip of the flat part of the float. I used some card stock as a template and made it just so it could pass over the floats. Make sure your needle springs aren't compressed - you'll be able to see them.

14.5 sounds right for the 46c but search around to make sure- I'm not positive. Don't want to get this one wrong.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 08:35:18 PM by nhg2112 »

Offline sweet_baby_james

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Re: 78 550k carb float height PD46C...and other help!
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2013, 09:23:36 PM »
Ok, I think that's what I did. I had the carb upside down on the bench and adjusted the tang so that the flat side of the float was 12.5mm above the bowl mating surface at the point furthest from the pivot pin. Sound right?

Offline Kenzo1979

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Re: 78 550k carb float height PD46C...and other help!
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2013, 04:32:00 AM »
I don't understand, If the required float height is 14.5mm, why do you keep setting them to 12.5mm?
--Kenzo
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Offline sweet_baby_james

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Re: 78 550k carb float height PD46C...and other help!
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2013, 05:52:28 AM »
From the reading that I've done 14.5 worked in the PD46A but on the PD46C 12.5mm is the magic number.

Maybe someone with PD46C can confirm this?

James

Offline Kenzo1979

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Re: 78 550k carb float height PD46C...and other help!
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2013, 07:30:46 AM »
oh, sorry. I missed the part about the A and the C.
--Kenzo
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Offline uksparky

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Re: 78 550k carb float height PD46C...and other help!
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2013, 07:54:26 AM »
Best way to check the level is to use a clear plastic pipe attached to the drain on the float bowl..bend it up and open the drain screw....on my PD46C carbs one of the POs set the levels as high as the float bowl gaskets...might be a bit high but no problems with running....
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Offline Bankerdanny

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Re: 78 550k carb float height PD46C...and other help!
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2013, 08:03:55 AM »
If you are finding fuel in the bowls then I doubt that float height is an issue. Besides, 12.5mm means that you have more fuel in the bowl than if it were at 14.5. I just don't see how the floats are keeping the bike from starting.

And what do you mean by "...will cut out even with full choke". Does it fire or doesn't it? Does it try to fire up, but never quite catches? Have you confirmed that your timing is right?

Have you sprayed carb cleaner through the main and slow jets and confirmed that they are all clear?

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Current: '76 CB750F. Previous:  '75 CB550F, 2007 Yamaha Vino 125 Scooter, '75 Harley FXE Superglide, '77 GL1000, '77 CB550k, '68 Suzuki K10 80, '68 Yamaha YR2, '69 BMW R69S, '71 Honda SL175, '02 Royal Enfield Bullet 500, '89 Yamaha FJ1200

Offline K3Owner

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Re: 78 550k carb float height PD46C...and other help!
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2013, 08:45:55 AM »
I understand from reading this forum that the '78 setting for the C carbs is not in the manual and that it is 12.5mm. Not in the factory manual but works well on my machine. The last year also has #42 pilots.
1978 CB550K4 - yeah, I'm not a K3 Owner - my bad

Offline nhg2112

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Re: 78 550k carb float height PD46C...and other help!
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2013, 09:01:02 AM »
Does it run on a prime/starting fluid sprayed into the carbs? If so, then your problem is more than likely with your carbs.

If not, then your timing may be way out of whack. I would go through that whole system and make sure its functioning properly. The factory manual available for free here has a great walk through, including specs.

Best thing here is to just make a checklist and walk through your systems one by one and make sure they're in order. 

Offline Dave Voss

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Re: 78 550k carb float height PD46C...and other help!
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2013, 10:09:38 AM »
From the reading that I've done 14.5 worked in the PD46A but on the PD46C 12.5mm is the magic number.

Maybe someone with PD46C can confirm this?

James

That's correct, for the 1978 CB550K with PD46C carburetors, set the floats to 12.5mm, as measured from the tip of the flat part of the float, to the carburetor bowl surface.  This float setting was published in a suppliment, rather than in the shop manual or the owners manual.  The engine should still start and run if the floats are set at 14.5mm, but the higher 12.5mm level allows the fuel to be drawn upward into the throats a bit easier, and since these carburetors tend to run lean anyway, a lower than ideal fuel level can cause issues.
-Dave Voss
(past) '78 CB550K4
(past) '75 CB550K1
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Offline sweet_baby_james

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Re: 78 550k carb float height PD46C...and other help!
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2013, 10:28:03 AM »
I have set the timing very recently using an ohmmeter but I will check it again to tonight to make sure that its correct.

I think I'll pull the carbs off and check the float height also just to verify it is correct. Carb 4 drains gas from the overflow too. I pulled the bowl and filled it with water and verified that the drain screw is seating correctly and that there is no crack on the brass tube, it all checks out. So that leads me to believe that the float needle isn't seating correctly?

It's tries to fire but never quite catches. I'm thinking its a timing issue.

James

Offline sweet_baby_james

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Re: 78 550k carb float height PD46C...and other help!
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2013, 12:09:52 PM »
Does it run on a prime/starting fluid sprayed into the carbs? If so, then your problem is more than likely with your carbs.

If not, then your timing may be way out of whack. I would go through that whole system and make sure its functioning properly. The factory manual available for free here has a great walk through, including specs.

Best thing here is to just make a checklist and walk through your systems one by one and make sure they're in order.

Could someone point me in the direction of the factory manual that has the walkthrough.  Is it in the tech articles?

James

Offline Scott S

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Re: 78 550k carb float height PD46C...and other help!
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2013, 01:43:36 PM »
Ok, I think that's what I did. I had the carb upside down on the bench and adjusted the tang so that the flat side of the float was 12.5mm above the bowl mating surface at the point furthest from the pivot pin. Sound right?

 Not to me. The carb should have been tilted on it's side slightly until the tang on the float just touches the pin on the needle. I think since you did them with the float just hanging, you are way off.
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Offline sweet_baby_james

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Re: 78 550k carb float height PD46C...and other help!
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2013, 02:07:51 PM »
I didn't set the height with them set up as you see in the picture. I had the carb upside down with the float needle seated in the body. The float is light enough such that it won't compress the spring when it sits on the pin. Then i measured and set the height.

Offline Scott S

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Re: 78 550k carb float height PD46C...and other help!
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2013, 03:25:59 PM »
 Oops, just re-read that.

 Still, it's usually done with the carbs slightly tilted so the tang touches the needle but doesn't compress it.
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Offline Bankerdanny

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Re: 78 550k carb float height PD46C...and other help!
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2013, 08:28:29 AM »
The float is actually heavy enough to start to compress the needle. You want the float to be touching the needle, not sitting on it.
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Offline sweet_baby_james

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Re: 78 550k carb float height PD46C...and other help!
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2013, 09:24:48 AM »
I started a new thread that has more info on some of the issues I am having.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=124281.0

Offline Big Al

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Re: 78 550k carb float height PD46C...and other help!
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2013, 01:03:59 PM »
I work in Angola and have brought some PD46A carbs with me as part of a rebuild project on a 1978, approx., CB550, not sure of model but engine number is CB550E- 2027851. Like others I found that the Clymers and Haynes manuals do not have any info on these Kei Hin carbs, so I joined this forum seeking guidance and will post progress hopefully to add to the collective PD46A knowledge. I have part dismantled the carbs and found the following, which fits in with other damage found to No 4 cylinder, broken rings, bent valve stem, scored cylinder.
Stamped on carb bodies PD46A □ OCY or could be PD46A □ OCV
Setting      Carb 1    Carb 2   Carb 3   Carb 4
Float height   13.5 mm   10.5 mm   12.0 mm   12.0 mm
Air Screw      1 ½ turns   1 ½ turns   1 ½ turns   1 ½ turns
Main Jet      90   90   90   90
Slow Jet       42   42   42   42
Slide Height   34.2 mm   34.3 mm   34.2 mm   33.0 mm
Slow Jet height   14.4 mm   14.5 mm   14.3 mm   15.2 mm
Normal amount of gunge in the bowls and collected in channels, especially just above the main jet. No 4 especially dirty probably due to blow back through the carb.
Number 1 and 2 needle jet holders (emulsion tubes) were loose and No 3 had unscrewed almost completely, making it at least 5 mm lower. I thought maybe somebody had started to dismantle the carbs but on reflection the bowls were still glued on with gasket goo so the bike must have been running like this. As you can see the float heights are all over the place, I will set them at 14.5 mm (after reading sweet baby james post, thank you).
The slide height on No 4 is significantly higher, maybe because somebody tried to balance the carbs after No 4 cylinder already had other problems. Likewise the tick over is wound up so far that the choke lever does not increase throttle opening when on full choke. I will set all slides the same as No 2 to begin with (thanks lucky for slide height measuring tip) and then balance the vacuum later, and reduce initial tick over setting, set fast idle speed etc.
The slow jets are not pushed fully into the bodies and No 4 slow jet is significantly lower. I haven’t pulled the slow jets out yet but when I fit them I will make sure that they all fully seat and check that they are all the same height, maybe even locktight in place if they seem loose.
I will update with what happens when I have finished the rebuild and start the engine.

Big Al

Offline lucky

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Re: 78 550k carb float height PD46C...and other help!
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2013, 06:33:37 AM »
Best way to check the level is to use a clear plastic pipe attached to the drain on the float bowl..bend it up and open the drain screw....on my PD46C carbs one of the POs set the levels as high as the float bowl gaskets...might be a bit high but no problems with running....

This is incorrect information.
The float height is MEASURED when the carb is upside down or on its side with the float tang just touching the float needle. FIRST.

THEN AFTER.....AFTER that you can use the clear tube method if you want to.

Offline lucky

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Re: 78 550k carb float height PD46C...and other help!
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2013, 06:36:54 AM »
I have set the timing very recently using an ohmmeter but I will check it again to tonight to make sure that its correct.

I think I'll pull the carbs off and check the float height also just to verify it is correct. Carb 4 drains gas from the overflow too. I pulled the bowl and filled it with water and verified that the drain screw is seating correctly and that there is no crack on the brass tube, it all checks out. So that leads me to believe that the float needle isn't seating correctly?

It's tries to fire but never quite catches. I'm thinking its a timing issue.

James


Yes the float level is TOO  HIGH.

MEASURE them like the book says to. Forget the clear tube.
I cannot stress that enough.

Otherwise you will just keep having trouble.

All the clear tube deal does is tell you if you need
 a new float needle because it is not working right.

Offline Killer Canary

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Re: 78 550k carb float height PD46C...and other help!
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2013, 07:08:50 AM »
Quote
All the clear tube deal does is tell you if you need
 a new float needle because it is not working right.
I wish that I could make sense of this. Please clarify!
If it's worth doing at all it's worth over-doing.
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Offline Big Al

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Re: 78 550k carb float height PD46C...and other help!
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2013, 02:22:56 PM »
Update on PD46A 1978 CB550 carb tinkering in Angola.

Needles were all E2349F and in groove 3, so it didn’t matter whether I counted from top or bottom but which is the correct way for future reference?
According to the table in the Honda supplement to CB500K3 / CB550K3 (77) my slow jets are for a CB500K3 not CB550K3. Also from the same table what are air jets and slow air jets? Are they the drillings in the carb body above slow jet and air screw?
All the settings I have found so far are.

Stamped on carb bodies PD46A □ OCY or could be PD46A □ OCV
Setting      Carb 1    Carb 2   Carb 3   Carb 4
Float height   13.5 mm   10.5 mm   12.0 mm   12.0 mm
Air Screw      1 ½ turns   1 ½ turns   1 ½ turns   1 ½ turns
Main Jet      90   90   90   90
Slow Jet       42   42   42   42
Needle      E2349F   E2349F   E2349F    E2349F
Needle Groove   3rd   3rd   3rd   3rd
Slide Height   34.2 mm   34.3 mm   34.2 mm   33.0 mm
Slow Jet height   14.4 mm   14.5 mm   14.3 mm   15.2 mm

Regarding the seals around the throttle shaft and choke shaft, I found I had two different types between the carbs, some had a small lip seal and others a felt seal. Both types were well worn giving clearance around the shafts. I was considering not changing these seals but I saw a few comments about leakage affecting mixture and fitted new O rings of appropriate sizes. The way I see it working is from 1/8 to 1/4 throttle opening the slide valve cutaway together with slow jet, and to a lesser extent needle jet, govern mixture due to a two stage air pressure drop. First drop in pressure is across the cutaway (inlet) side of the slide, second pressure drop is across the downstream (controlling) side of the slide. Larger slide valve cutaways give a weaker mixture by altering the relative sizes of the two pressure drops, less pressure drop across the cutaway ie higher (absolute) pressure in the space between the two sides of the slide draws less fuel through the slow jet, and to a lesser extent the needle jet. Leakage through the throttle shaft seals allows air through the balance hole in the top of the slide, into the space between the two sides of the slide and has the same effect as a larger cutaway, weaker mixture between 1/8 to 1/4 throttle. Leakage past the choke shaft seals is not as drastic but it does allow air to bypass the air filter, which may allow dirt in and slightly raise effective air box pressure.

Bearing in mind the above comments that air leakage into the central space from above the slide will affect air pressures, when the Honda supplement to CB500K3 / CB550K3 (77) under synchronising carburettors says remove Nos 1, 3 and 4 carb tops, I think you should remove all four tops to give the same effect on each. Having one top in place must result in a slightly different vacuum reading on that cylinder. A more tedious method may be to take vacuum readings with all tops in place, adjust with engine stopped and replace tops before checking readings again.

Needle jet removal may not be necessary if there is no dirt in central small bore air channel to the annular space around the needle jet. Check bore with copper wire and annular space with a small plastic scraper made from a plastic bottle, then blow through with air. Any doubts then I suppose it is chop stick time.

Regards, Big Al.

Offline lucky

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Re: 78 550k carb float height PD46C...and other help!
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2013, 05:29:14 PM »
Quote
All the clear tube deal does is tell you if you need
 a new float needle because it is not working right.
I wish that I could make sense of this. Please clarify!

Buy the Clymer's workshop manual for your motorcycle.
It has photos and illustrations and tells you exactly what I have told you.
It is all you need to know. IT even tells you to measure your float level with a measuring device FIRST before any "clear tube method" which is not really needed.

The float is set with a measuring device. If the float needles are working properly you will have no problems. The float needle and seat ARE CRITICAL.

A carb is like a toilet. It has a float the bowl fills up and maintains a certain level all the time.

And think about this....Even WITH the "clear tube method" it does NOT say what the float bowl level is supposed to be.

If all the beginners would just get the actual workshop manual and follow it, you would all not have so many problems.



« Last Edit: October 12, 2013, 05:35:02 PM by lucky »

Offline lucky

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Re: 78 550k carb float height PD46C...and other help!
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2013, 05:42:17 PM »
Update on PD46A 1978 CB550 carb tinkering in Angola.

Needles were all E2349F and in groove 3, so it didn’t matter whether I counted from top or bottom but which is the correct way for future reference?
According to the table in the Honda supplement to CB500K3 / CB550K3 (77) my slow jets are for a CB500K3 not CB550K3. Also from the same table what are air jets and slow air jets? Are they the drillings in the carb body above slow jet and air screw?
All the settings I have found so far are.

Stamped on carb bodies PD46A □ OCY or could be PD46A □ OCV
Setting      Carb 1    Carb 2   Carb 3   Carb 4
Float height   13.5 mm   10.5 mm   12.0 mm   12.0 mm
Air Screw      1 ½ turns   1 ½ turns   1 ½ turns   1 ½ turns
Main Jet      90   90   90   90
Slow Jet       42   42   42   42
Needle      E2349F   E2349F   E2349F    E2349F
Needle Groove   3rd   3rd   3rd   3rd
Slide Height   34.2 mm   34.3 mm   34.2 mm   33.0 mm
Slow Jet height   14.4 mm   14.5 mm   14.3 mm   15.2 mm

Regarding the seals around the throttle shaft and choke shaft, I found I had two different types between the carbs, some had a small lip seal and others a felt seal. Both types were well worn giving clearance around the shafts. I was considering not changing these seals but I saw a few comments about leakage affecting mixture and fitted new O rings of appropriate sizes. The way I see it working is from 1/8 to 1/4 throttle opening the slide valve cutaway together with slow jet, and to a lesser extent needle jet, govern mixture due to a two stage air pressure drop. First drop in pressure is across the cutaway (inlet) side of the slide, second pressure drop is across the downstream (controlling) side of the slide. Larger slide valve cutaways give a weaker mixture by altering the relative sizes of the two pressure drops, less pressure drop across the cutaway ie higher (absolute) pressure in the space between the two sides of the slide draws less fuel through the slow jet, and to a lesser extent the needle jet. Leakage through the throttle shaft seals allows air through the balance hole in the top of the slide, into the space between the two sides of the slide and has the same effect as a larger cutaway, weaker mixture between 1/8 to 1/4 throttle. Leakage past the choke shaft seals is not as drastic but it does allow air to bypass the air filter, which may allow dirt in and slightly raise effective air box pressure.

Bearing in mind the above comments that air leakage into the central space from above the slide will affect air pressures, when the Honda supplement to CB500K3 / CB550K3 (77) under synchronising carburettors says remove Nos 1, 3 and 4 carb tops, I think you should remove all four tops to give the same effect on each. Having one top in place must result in a slightly different vacuum reading on that cylinder. A more tedious method may be to take vacuum readings with all tops in place, adjust with engine stopped and replace tops before checking readings again.

Needle jet removal may not be necessary if there is no dirt in central small bore air channel to the annular space around the needle jet. Check bore with copper wire and annular space with a small plastic scraper made from a plastic bottle, then blow through with air. Any doubts then I suppose it is chop stick time.

Regards, Big Al.

QUOTE...
"Bearing in mind the above comments that air leakage into the central space from above the slide will affect air pressures, when the Honda supplement to CB500K3 / CB550K3 (77) under synchronising carburettors says remove Nos 1, 3 and 4 carb tops, I think you should remove all four tops to give the same effect on each. Having one top in place must result in a slightly different vacuum reading on that cylinder. A more tedious method may be to take vacuum readings with all tops in place, adjust with engine stopped and replace tops before checking readings again."

LUCKY-
The slides on this model are opened closed manually with a cable and is NOT a vacuum operated carb.
Removing the top of #2 carb will make no difference. Check that out yourself.

IF the throttle shaft bushings whatever material they are, do not work then that WILL affect the vacuum readings.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2013, 05:45:13 PM by lucky »

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Re: 78 550k carb float height PD46C...and other help!
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2013, 05:52:28 PM »
Best way to check the level is to use a clear plastic pipe attached to the drain on the float bowl..bend it up and open the drain screw....on my PD46C carbs one of the POs set the levels as high as the float bowl gaskets...might be a bit high but no problems with running....

This is incorrect information.
The float height is MEASURED when the carb is upside down or on its side with the float tang just touching the float needle. FIRST.

THEN AFTER.....AFTER that you can use the clear tube method if you want to.

This is incorrect information
You are right the information you just gave is incorrect

All the clear tube deal does is tell you if you need
 a new float needle because it is not working right.

All the float needle does is control the fuel in and out of the bowl.

The float height is MEASURED when the carb is upside down or on its side with the float tang just touching the float needle.

No lucky you do not measure it with the carb upside down.
ScottS is correct.

MEASURE them like the book says to. Forget the clear tube.
I cannot stress that enough.


To late you have already stressed it too much.
  Don't start the wining bully crap.
I like everyone make mistakes some man up and some don't.

Now back to the op.

The float is actually heavy enough to start to compress the needle. You want the float to be touching the needle, not sitting on it.

That is right Bankerdanny  ;)
Does it run on a prime/starting fluid sprayed into the carbs? If so, then your problem is more than likely with your carbs.

If not, then your timing may be way out of whack. I would go through that whole system and make sure its functioning properly. The factory manual available for free here has a great walk through, including specs.

Best thing here is to just make a checklist and walk through your systems one by one and make sure they're in order. 
Yes try some starter spray if it fires better then look into fuel delivery issues

Offline Big Al

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Re: 78 550k carb float height PD46C...and other help!
« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2013, 11:01:03 AM »
Thanks for the feedback Lucky,

Quote

LUCKY-
The slides on this model are opened closed manually with a cable and is NOT a vacuum operated carb. Removing the top of #2 carb will make no difference. Check that out yourself.

IF the throttle shaft bushings whatever material they are, do not work then that WILL affect the vacuum readings.


« Last Edit: October 12, 2013, 07:45:13 PM by lucky »

Removing the carb top has exactly the same effect as leakage past the throttle shaft seals, both allow air into exactly the same space. If one adversely effects the vacuum readings then so will the other.

Regards, Big Al.