Topic: Replacement Regulator/Rectifier CHEAP

[Queeg]

wow you guys have been keeping up with the game.  im back from college yeah thats it, glad to see i was missed lol

[kennydean2000]

Not sure if anyone is still following this thread but I figured I would give the DIY rectifier regulator a try.  Unfortunately I'm not having any luck.  The photo is of the two rectifiers.  The black wires are connected and run to the positive side of the battery.  The yellow wires are from the alternator and the green are to ground.  The blue shrink wrapped wire in the foreground is a yellow.

I originally wired the voltage regulator I = not used, A = to positive side of battery, S = to 12VDC off switched ignition, and F to the white alternator wire.  I made a wiring harness to connect to the original wire bundle coming out of the engine.  I ran a ground to the neutral switch wire on the solenoid (to allow starts without clutch in).  Engine kicked over but voltage at the battery showed a draw down while running.

I then changed around the I = to switched ignition and left the S = not used.  Still got a small voltage draw down while running.  At that point I figured out (I think) that the solid green out of the engine case needed to be run to ground.  I originally thought the alternator assembly was grounded inside the engine case (but then why the solid green - so I grounded that).

Tried the same two configurations as above and same results.  I then wired it in the "left to right" method described - still showed battery draw down.

At this point any ideas?  I may have fried the voltage regulator at this point.  I might have the rectifiers wired wrong (take a look at the photo)?

I also referred to the shop manual to check the alternator.  The spec is to check resistance between the yellow leads.  That showed very low resistance.  I then checked continuity between the yellow wires off the alternator and there was continuity - is that what it's supposed to read.

I may buy another voltage regulator but some ideas on where I've gone wrong would help!

Thanks

[Pinhead]

Did you ground the case of the regulator?

[Spanner 1]

With respect... you should have  checked the field coil and the stator before replacing the stock reg/rect. which is very, very reliable. Again and again these two items are replaced unnecessarily because the actual problem is elsewhere ( and very commonly just shi**y 40 yr. old wiring and neglected connections ).... IMHO  Others may be able to help you with this mod.... good luck .

[kennydean2000]

The case was/is grounded.  The PO had already messed up the wiring so I was forced to almost start from scratch.  I do have the original voltage regulator however that seems to be causing a current draw when wired in with the ignition on and bike not running.  The original rectifier is junk (fried wires from PO).

The next step is to check the alternator wiring I guess.  There are specs on the resistance in the shop manual and I also found some good info on the Oregon Cycles site.  This is becoming an exercise in bike electronics.  I'll post what I find if it helps anyone.

[CycleRanger]

It's a bit simpler if you use a single rectifier.

[Celco]

I just want to give a little update about this wiring method and say that using these has worked 2 times on 2 separate bikes for me. 

I recently finished building a kick only minimal wiring harness for my CB550 and everything charges and starts just fine.  Here is a copy of the wiring harness, give a little clearer overall shot of how to hook everything up.

(add a ground on the REC too)

I ended up using the VR730 from autozone and a 3 phase rectifier from ebay.  Extra special was the use of Ballistic EVO2 50 battery on the bike.  Since I wasn't using a kickstarter and my wallet was mostly empty I went for the smaller/cheaper battery.  Everything works great and the battery charges at around 14.3 volts at high revs.  Everything on this bike to work correctly from the get go. 

The other bike I did this on was a buddies 75 CB750.  We had many more headaches here.  I was there about a year ago when my buddy was going to take his 750 out.  It had a rough looking custom wiring harness he built a few months before with a Chinese reg/rec from some crap bike.  We went for a ride one night and 1/4mile down the street his headlight turned mega blue/purple and popped and then the bike died.  He parked it and left it alone after he couldn't quickly diagnosis it. 
Fastforward a year later and I am in town after building my harness.  I bought a few extra rectifiers on ebay a while back knowing id be building more.  These ones were the rectangle with the rounded ends kinds.  We also got a regulator from Adv Auto Parts.  They didn't carry the same part number, but a R400Z (I believe) was supposedly the same from their supplier.  Got back and modified what wires we needed to and mounted everything.  Ground the case and everything was good.  Well, first off... the main fuse kept popping. WTF? Went down the chain of power and trail and error we found that the rectifiers were bad from china.  Some reason the + and - terminals were connected and put any power to it the thing would ground to frame, pop fuse.  Ended up doing the trick way of using 2 single phase rectifiers I got at radioshack (It pained me to go there, but it was sunday evening and it was the only thing around open.... I hate that place).   We wired that all up and woo hoo!  No more fuse popping, time to start the bike.  Checking the voltage while it was running we were getting very little/no charge going on.  Started checking the AC lines... nothing.  Checked power to the reg and rec... just fine.  12v power to the stator field... none.  There was our problem, the regulator was broken.  We went to a Autozone and got the correct VR730 and popped it in.  Worked like a champ!  12v was charging the field, AC current was coming out, battery was getting ~12v at idle and 14.2v at high rpms. 

This is a great way to replace your electrical system on the cheap.  I think even with the 2 rectifiers you'll still get out with less than $40 into parts.  You might need some wires and connectors still.  Depending on your location the regulator will be about $28 and you can get rectifiers on ebay for about $5.  Id stay stay away from those rectangle ones since both the ones I bought were junk (bad batch?).  Try your local hobby electronics store.   

I am not sure if that R400Z regulator from Advanced Auto was defective, or that it is a wrong part and won't ever work.  It looked the same, just a gray cover on the case.  We just went there and got the cross referenced equivalent model that they carry.  It probably died from when the fuses kept popping.   

If you are trouble shooting, think of it this way.
Power(12v) is always on to + legs of Reg and Rec -> Ignition key supplies 12v to "I" (ignition) -> Regulator now charged and supplies 12v to the stator electromagnet -> bike starts, stator spins, AC current is being produced -> 3 phase AC rectified into 12v-14v DC -> 12-14v DC is feed into + main wire in the bike to run everything and back flow to battery to maintain (12v-low rpm) and charge (14.4v-high rpm).

[kennydean2000]

Thanks for the diagram.  Looks like I had mine wired similarly but using the two rectifier setup.  One difference however is the voltage regulator I used.  I got mine via Ebay and it is supposed to fit 1970's Fords and had the IASF connections.  The specific unit I got was a "SMP/STANDARD VR166T Voltage Regulator."  Perhaps the Autozone unit is the one I really need.  BTW I also got a Ballistic Battery EV02 12V LI-ION to mount under the cafe bump.

The rectifiers I used were bought from All Electronics p/n FWB-3501 (35A 100V BRIDGE RECTIFIER), GBPC3501.

As I wrote earlier I'll check the alternator wiring resistance however when I did it earlier the resistance was really low (as I recall it's supposed to be) then tried continuity and found continuity between the yellow leads from the alternator.  Since they're all tied into the same stator device I guess that's to be expected.

Since I am essentially starting from scratch I'm also using a bus bar type wiring block with one side for ignition switched positive and the other to ground.  The only direct connections to the battery are the frame ground (also tied to the negative side of the bus bar) and positive to the starter and to the regulator/rectifier assembly and to the key switch to power the positive side of the bus bar.  I'm running everything back through the bus bar which at this point is only the power to the points/coil assembly and the starter switch.

It fires up and idles fine as described with the exception of the #$%@ charging issue.

I'll post the wiring diagram once I get it fully sorted but this arrangement pulls the "bird's nest" out of the headlight assembly and routes it more like an automotive setup to a bus bar (instead of a fuse panel) under the cafe bump.  At this point I have a single "main" fuse between the battery and key switch.  Once done it should clean up nice (I hate messy wiring designs).

My guess is that I'll check the alternator wiring resistance values then have to run to Autozone and buy the same part number you (and others) list here and try again.

Thanks for all the input

[Celco]

@kennydean2000

Check the 'I' lead on the regulator for 12v when the key/bike is switched on.  If that is 12v then check the 'F' lead on the regulator.  That should be 12v when the key is switched on.  If you are getting no 12v from the regulator to the stator then no electromagnetic field and no charge. That is what happened on the 750 I worked on.  If you are getting 12v out from that but getting no AC current from the 3 yellow wires when running, then yeah your stator is probably messed up.  But if it does have AC flowing when the bike is running... then your rectifier is probably messed up or hooked up wrong. 


Hope that helps you trouble shoot so you aren't chasing gremlins that might not be there. 

[CycleRanger]

Thanks for the diagram.  Looks like I had mine wired similarly but using the two rectifier setup.  One difference however is the voltage regulator I used.  I got mine via Ebay and it is supposed to fit 1970's Fords and had the IASF connections.  The specific unit I got was a "SMP/STANDARD VR166T Voltage Regulator."  Perhaps the Autozone unit is the one I really need.  BTW I also got a Ballistic Battery EV02 12V LI-ION to mount under the cafe bump.

I used a VR124. It was plug & play and it's a bit smaller than the VR166.

[TwoTired]

I do have the original voltage regulator however that seems to be causing a current draw when wired in with the ignition on and bike not running. 

The original Honda Regulator is supposed to do that.  Takes power from the battery to activate the alternator field coil whenever the battery voltage is lower than trip point.  It removes power when the battery is fully charged.  Then it cycles states to keep the battery charged, assuming the alternator is making enough power.  If the bike isn't running, the alternator can't make any power.  It still uses power from the battery to enable the magnetic field within the alternator.

Cheers,

[scottly]

Looks like I need to bump this, as there still seems to be confusion on the Ford wiring. The "I" terminal on the regulator is for an Indicator light, and is not used with our systems.

Ford regulator wiring:
I- no connection (I suspect this is where some mistakes have been made)
A- connect to battery plus (battery reference)
S- connect the black wire from the stock harness here (switched on with ign)
F- connect the white wire from the stock harness here (alt field)
regulator case- connect the green wire from the stock harness (ground reference)

[scottly]

The schematic for the 2 Ford wiring schemes. Our bikes use the one on the right.

[dawdish]

I guess I missed something...My 400f, when full fielded, will only make 13.2V and that @ 5k rpm. At idle, or 1200+/-rpm, its 12.5V. My concern is that at idle, the amperage is -3 +/- Amps, and +10 Amps @5k rpm,(this is full fielded).
When NOT full fielded, the only time it charges on the + side, in Amps, is when the rpm is near 5k. This means that if I'm just puts'n around town, the battery goes dead over time, as the Amps are in the negative most of the time.
I should say here, that I'm using a Ballistic 4cell.
And all this is daytime riding, heaven help me if I dare ride at night. With all the lights on, including brake and high beam, the most + Amps it gets is 1 to 1.8 and thats at 5-7k rpm.

[Spanner 1]

dawdish... normal IMO........if the battery is anywhere less than fully charged,;i.e. you have started the bike with the start motor and revved it looking at amps/volts = normal. It should not show more than 13v or so while the battery is calling for all the charge it can get......when the battery is full or close to full then those low numbers will change , but not until then IMO....... and that could be 50 miles down the road. Time and running is a factor here and cannot be simulated  in the garage unless you lock your throttle @ 4,000 rpm and let the bike run for an hour at least sitting... ( a VERY bad idea...  )..... Go ride it and re-test IMO.

[TwoTired]

I guess I missed something...My 400f, when full fielded, will only make 13.2V and that @ 5k rpm.

The battery voltage changes very slowly and is highly related to charge state.  The charging system has very little power compared to the power contained in the battery .  You actually want this, so the battery voltage does NOT vary widely under use or charge.
This is why you check the charging system operation with a known good and fully charged battery, to learn if the charging system is capable of maintaining it in the fully charged state.  I'd guess your 13.2v reading was taken with a less than full battery still taking on a restorative charge.

The 400F charging system is rated at 150Watts output maximum @ 5000 RPM. but at idle speed it is only capable of about 1/3 of full rating.
So, it matters a great deal on how much load, or watts used by the bike, is.  The stock bike drew about 120 watts whenever the key switch and lights were on.  This meant that the battery would drain at idle speed and only recharge the battery at about a 1 amp rate when the engine was revved up.  The stock 12 AH battery would take over 10 hours to reach fully charge from a depleted state and reach 14.5V, IF the engine was kept above 3000 RPM during the entire time span.  The stock bike used the battery as a power buffer during normal use, which was never expected to be idling for dominant periods of time, particularly with the lights on.

I should say here, that I'm using a Ballistic 4cell.

Which is NOT a very big power reservoir.   And, probably fine for the race track, but not for the planned use you have for it.

If you reduce your bike's energy use signature closer to 50 watts total, you can probably "puts" around all you want, and still keep the battery full.  If you want your "Cafe Racer" to keep the tiny battery up, you better race it.

[dawdish]

  If you want your "Cafe Racer" to keep the tiny battery up, you better race it.
[/quote]

Well I guess I better quit puts'n,LOL.

Now I know this is probably a dumb question, can a 500 or 550 alternator be adapted over, or can the 400 alternator be modified to produce more.

[Pinhead]

  If you want your "Cafe Racer" to keep the tiny battery up, you better race it.

Well I guess I better quit puts'n,LOL.

Now I know this is probably a dumb question, can a 500 or 550 alternator be adapted over, or can the 400 alternator be modified to produce more.
[/quote]

It's MUCH easier to reduce your bike's electrical power load by using LED tail/brake/turn/indicator lights and HID headlamps than it is to increase your alternator's output capacity. Then the next step would be to go to an electronically-triggered ignition system similar to the CB650's (or better  yet, the GM DIS/HEI conversion) which greatly reduces your coil current at low-to-idle RPM...

[TwoTired]

Now I know this is probably a dumb question, can a 500 or 550 alternator be adapted over, or can the 400 alternator be modified to produce more.

Those alternators don't do much better, if any.  The 550 is rated for 150W @ 5000 RPM as well.

Can what you have be modified?  Of course!  How much are you willing to spend on that?  Enough for an engineering project? 
I have an idea to use a DC-DC converter to increase the voltage going to the alternator field.  Completely untested or quantified for power increase/reliability.  But, in theory it should work.

Really though, you need to make a balance sheet listing all the bike's power use devices and what power they require to operate.  Trim any fat and replace portions with more efficient units, (if you absolutely MUST retain that tiny battery).  Or, drive differently than you want.  It occurs to me that Honda made the original bike to do pretty much what you want to use it for (puts'n).   

Cheers,

[Spanner 1]

Any possible alternator 'upgrade' for increased output ( wattage ) will increase the charging load on the motor i.e. rob the motor of more H.P. compared to stock charging... you (all ) know that the alt. causes a load on the motor , right ?, the battery doesn't charge 'for free'... as the charging system uses H.P. to operate.

[TwoTired]

 Er, 1HP = 745 watts.

[dawdish]

Thanks guys for the help. I just wish I could realize more amps at a lower rpm. I do see your point of there not being enough "reserve" in the battery.

One thing I did yesterday, was to rewire the tail light to come on with the light switch instead of the ignition. Its a 13 LED and pulled more amps than I liked. Now at idle, the draw is less than 1 amp.

And...Ride it like I own it!

[kennydean2000]

Update:  Here's the path I followed for anyone who's interested to "solve" the issue I had.

Checked field coil resistance between green and white wires out of alternator assembly.  Spec is for 4.9 ohms +/- 10%.  My readings were 4.1 ohms.

Checked stator coil resistance.  Spec is for 0.35 ohm +/- 10% between all combination of yellow wires.  My readings were 0.7 ohms.  As mentioned before the yellow leads also showed continuity between the leads.

With "I" from the voltage regulator hooked to ignition, ignition turned  on, measured the voltage drop between the I lead (@ 12.8 VDC) and the "F" lead (@ 11.5 VDC).

Swapped to have the "S" from the voltage regulator hooked to ignition, ignition turned on, measured the voltage drop between the S lead (@ 12.8 VDC) and the "F" lead (@ 11.5VDC)

Fired bike up and still a voltage draw down at the battery while running.  Measured AC values at yellow stator leads at the rectifier.  AC voltage shown, increasing with rpm.

Tested DC voltage at rectifier + terminal (back to the battery) with multimeter ground to the rectifier's ground - showed DC voltage ranging from 10 VDC to 60 VDC depending on rpm.

At this point I figured the Voltage Regulator was toast however I'd bought 6 of the rectifiers and swapped the 2 being used out for 2 new ones.

Fired the bike up and the system stabilized, charging at about 12.6VDC steady with only slight change with increased rpm.  This was evidenced with the voltage regulator's "S" lead connected to the ignition.  I then swapped the ignition lead to the "I" terminal of the voltage regulator and got the exact same charging rate?

I then simply pulled the ignition lead off the voltage regulator, leaving just the F=field, and A=direct battery, and case grounded and charging at the battery terminals bumped up to 12.8VDC still quite steady (not much change based on rpm).

I'd like to see a higher charging rate, say up in the high 13 VDC range but 12.8 VDC may suffice.  That means I'd leave the "I" and the "S" open.  For piece of mind I might rig up a cheap voltage meter to keep an eye on voltage but we'll see.  I may also swap in the original Honda voltage rectifier and see if that makes any difference too but for now I'll start obsessing over getting it rebuilt and all the other things needed to get it back on the road!

To summarize what I used for this to modify a 1977 Honda CB550F:

(1) Voltage Regulator "SMP/Standard VR166T" from eBay
(2) 35A 100V Bridge Rectifiers p/n FWB-3501 from All Electronics
Standard bus bar terminal block as main wiring termination point
Ballistic Battery EV02 12V LI-ION

Hope this helps those that follow.  If anyone has any insight I'm interested to know too.

[dave500]

[dawdish]

@dave500... besides the gage...did you do anything to get 14 volts? I have never seen that kind of charge rate from mine.