Author Topic: Replacement Regulator/Rectifier CHEAP  (Read 138046 times)

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Offline dave500

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Re: Replacement Regulator/Rectifier CHEAP
« Reply #350 on: May 16, 2012, 01:00:08 pm »
it has a little bosch electronic reg and a rectifier from a boldor,also the boyer micro power ignition dosent pull much.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=106162.msg1187861#msg1187861
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 01:03:08 pm by dave500 »

Offline dawdish

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Re: Replacement Regulator/Rectifier CHEAP
« Reply #351 on: May 16, 2012, 07:54:29 pm »
it has a little bosch electronic reg and a rectifier from a boldor,also the boyer micro power ignition dosent pull much.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=106162.msg1187861#msg1187861

Thanks Dave500, I went to that thread, and I learned there what i did not understand about sohc charging systems. That they run off the battery all the time, if the battery goes too far down, the alternator wont keep the bike running...
'75 CB400F
'72 CB500 Four
1 CB550 Chappa (barn find)
1 '75 CB550 (barn find)
'81 Guzzi V1000( I couldn't help myself)

Offline scottly

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Re: Replacement Regulator/Rectifier CHEAP
« Reply #352 on: May 16, 2012, 09:56:25 pm »
they run off the battery all the time, if the battery goes too far down, the alternator wont keep the bike running...
Wrong. Once the motor is running at an RPM high enough for the alternator to keep up with the demands of the ignition system, the battery can be removed and the bike will keep running.
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Replacement Regulator/Rectifier CHEAP
« Reply #353 on: May 17, 2012, 12:35:11 am »
they run off the battery all the time, if the battery goes too far down, the alternator wont keep the bike running...
Wrong. Once the motor is running at an RPM high enough for the alternator to keep up with the demands of the ignition system, the battery can be removed and the bike will keep running.

I understand what you are saying.  But, Dawdish is right.  If the battery goes down in voltage and remains connected in circuit, it means the alternator isn't making enough power to charge it, and/or the battery has some serious issues with drawing more power than the alternator can make.  When the voltage gets low enough, the engine dies from no spark.
Of course, most of us are referring to an un-modifed SOHC4 electrical system.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline dawdish

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Re: Replacement Regulator/Rectifier CHEAP
« Reply #354 on: May 17, 2012, 05:37:51 am »
This has been my experience...with (I admit,too small)  4 cell li/ion battery. As I said on another thread dave500 showed me, a characteristic of a li/ion is to have 12+ volts then abruptly drop off to near 0 volts, unlike a lead acid that drops voltage on a "curve", so the stock regulator cant handle the abruptness and cant cause the alternator to charge the li/ion battery...and the bike dies.

So I'm thinking the "ford" style regulator (electronic) can handle the li/ion because it causes the alternator to charge at a more steady rate...

Does that make sense?

On another point, some have stated that electronic ignition draws less current. I would like to go with electronic anyway, is the Dyna ignition a good choice for this, or should I look to some other systems?
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 08:29:31 am by dawdish »
'75 CB400F
'72 CB500 Four
1 CB550 Chappa (barn find)
1 '75 CB550 (barn find)
'81 Guzzi V1000( I couldn't help myself)

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Replacement Regulator/Rectifier CHEAP
« Reply #355 on: May 17, 2012, 12:07:45 pm »
So I'm thinking the "ford" style regulator (electronic) can handle the li/ion because it causes the alternator to charge at a more steady rate...

Does that make sense?
Not, to me.  The regulator does not make any power contribution.  It can only enable/disable the alternator to make power.  The itself alternator makes no power at zero RPM no mater what the Vreg tells it to do.  At some optimum revolution rate, the alternator makes the most power of its ability.  Between zero and that max output RPM is an output curve representing it's power output capability.
For the 550, the output rating is 150 Watts @ 5000 RPM. And about 40-50 watts at idle RPM.  The 750 does have more alternator capability.
That is the supply side of the balance sheet.

The load side of the balance sheet is what the bike consumes in electrical power.  Lighting and various switches on the bike do make that somewhat variable.  But, usually you would want to arrange that consuming load to be less than available supply capability.
The stock bike draws about 120 watts with lighting switches (if equipped) on.  This is less than what the alternator can supply at optimum RPM.  But, more than the alternator can output when spinning at idle RPM.

If the bike demands more than the alternator can supply, the spark supply voltage goes lower than the ignition system can tolerate to make spark, and the engine won't run.

Enter the battery.   
The battery uses an internal chemical reaction to generate power for export.  Once some chemicals are converted, it can then accept power to convert those chemical back to their original state.  In the SOHC4 system, the battery is used as a buffer to supply power when needed and accept power for its restoration.    The construction and the amount of chemicals within the battery determines how much power can be removed from it before the internal chemicals are exhausted or have been completely converted.

The voltage regulator's job is to monitor battery state and command the alternator to make power when it senses the battery is NOT at full capacity, and will tell the alternator to shut down when it senses the battery IS at full status.
If the alternator is revving at idle, it doesn't matter how much the vreg is shouting for it to make more power, it simply can't, as the alternator's output power curve with RPM is absolute for the supply side.  If the battery is full however, the vreg CAN shut off or turn down the output of the alternator no matter what speed it is spinning.  The Vreg may be more aptly named voltage limiter.  With the true "regulation" for system voltage being tied directly to battery charge state.
All this is arranged to keep the alternator from ramming more power into the battery than it can stand without internal damage.

New battery technology.
The SOHC4 system and most ALL of Automotive systems operate on the voltage output sensing curves common with lead acid batteries.
All charging systems for lead acid batteries have a Vreg tailored to maintain a lead acid battery at it's full charge state.

Lithium technology batteries have a different voltage output curve.  And, there is no automotive or motorcycle Vreg tailored for lithium technology batteries (that I am aware of, anyway).

Some variants of the lithium technology battery family can withstand what a lead acid voltage regulator does to the Lithium technology battery.  None are ideal for it.

For the SOHC4, not only is the voltage regulator (stock, aftermarket, or automotive) wrong for it, the alternator does not provide a constant power source to properly maintain lithium technology batteries in whatever capacity they contain.

If you don't have a Vreg that is capable of monitoring a lithium battery that you have installed on an SOHC4, then it is up to the rider to monitor battery voltage, and keep the alternator spinning faster when the battery needs restorative power.  One method is to mount a voltmeter on the bike in view of the rider.  And, that meter should either be a sensitive digital or have an expanded scale to show detail of the critical voltage levels of the battery.  This means the rider must understand what the meter is displaying and the impact on the battery aboard the machine increasing rider workload.



On another point, some have stated that electronic ignition draws less current.
Er,...Than what?  Point's?  No.

I would like to go with electronic anyway, is the Dyna ignition a good choice for this, or should I look to some other systems?
The "electronic" descriptor is about as precise as "motorcycle". TVs are "electronic".  Are these all the same?  And, provide the same experience?

The Dyna unit itself doesn't draw significant power from the SOHC4.  However, it commands the coils to draw 57% more power than the points system.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline CycleRanger

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Re: Replacement Regulator/Rectifier CHEAP
« Reply #356 on: May 17, 2012, 12:10:12 pm »
Can a Mod perhaps split out this conversation about the charging system into a separate thread so the original thread can maintain a clarity and sense of purpose.
 ;) ::)
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 02:13:03 pm by CycleRanger »
Do you have a copy of the Shop Manual?
http://www.honda4fun.com/materiale-documentazione-tecnica/shop-manual
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Offline kennydean2000

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Re: Replacement Regulator/Rectifier CHEAP
« Reply #357 on: May 17, 2012, 01:51:53 pm »
Thanks TwoTired, great description.

Based on that, my setup (with the battery monitoring connection disconnected on the VReg) and the VReg charging my lithium ion battery at a steady 12.8VDC I'm not protecting the battery from being overcharged? 

If I understand you correctly it's the current that is at issue not the voltage? (i.e even though voltage is relatively stable the current then is changing with RPM?)

Thanks
1974 CB750 Stocker, 1977 CB550F Cafe, 2000 Road King

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Replacement Regulator/Rectifier CHEAP
« Reply #358 on: May 17, 2012, 04:53:56 pm »
Based on that, my setup (with the battery monitoring connection disconnected on the VReg) and the VReg charging my lithium ion battery at a steady 12.8VDC I'm not protecting the battery from being overcharged? 

If I understand you correctly it's the current that is at issue not the voltage? (i.e even though voltage is relatively stable the current then is changing with RPM?)[/quote]

I don't see how a Vreg can perform it's job without the monitoring connection.  Perhaps it has it's own weak internal reference voltage to save itself from an external broken connection.

12.8 V is 3.2V per cell, which is about 75% discharged. (Assuming LIFePo4 battery technology and 4 cells.)

Voltage is potential.  You can equate voltage to a water level.  You never see static columns within a body of water.    When the suface is uneven, there are currents to fill the lows and diminish the transient high points.

Electricity is similar, in that no current will flow unless there is a dissimilarity in the voltage potentials.  To increase a battery presently at a 12.8 voltage level, you must apply a higher potential to get current to flow into it.

If the 4 cell LIFePo4 battery is at a 12.8V potential and you apply exactly 12.8V, yes you are protecting it from overcharge.  You are also protecting it from any charge level above 25% full.  In fact, if you look at the charge curve I posted below, it gets to 12.8V at about 7% of total capacity.
FYI: chart is from :
http://www.efirstpower.com/li.html
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Replacement Regulator/Rectifier CHEAP
« Reply #359 on: May 17, 2012, 04:55:31 pm »
Can a Mod perhaps split out this conversation about the charging system into a separate thread so the original thread can maintain a clarity and sense of purpose.
 ;) ::)

You can report any post you feel needs the attention of a moderator, by using the "report to Moderator" button.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline dawdish

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Re: Replacement Regulator/Rectifier CHEAP
« Reply #360 on: May 17, 2012, 05:22:29 pm »
@ TwoTired, thank you very much, you have been extremely helpful. And thanks for your patience. ;)
'75 CB400F
'72 CB500 Four
1 CB550 Chappa (barn find)
1 '75 CB550 (barn find)
'81 Guzzi V1000( I couldn't help myself)

Offline scottly

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Re: Replacement Regulator/Rectifier CHEAP
« Reply #361 on: May 17, 2012, 08:15:35 pm »
they run off the battery all the time, if the battery goes too far down, the alternator wont keep the bike running...
Wrong. Once the motor is running at an RPM high enough for the alternator to keep up with the demands of the ignition system, the battery can be removed and the bike will keep running.

I understand what you are saying.
Of course, most of us are referring to an un-modifed SOHC4 electrical system.
?? This thread is specifically about pinhead's replacement for the stock mechanical regulator and rectifier. (Thank you Doug!!!)
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline kennydean2000

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Re: Replacement Regulator/Rectifier CHEAP
« Reply #362 on: May 18, 2012, 03:54:42 am »
Thanks again Two Tired (and all who've contributed here).

Guess I need to revisit my charging system again.  12.8 VDC is too low for the long term health of my battery.  I was referring to current as I (mistakenly) thought that a steady 12.8VDC was enough voltage for a healthy charging system.

The voltage regulator and rectifier setup I'm using (based on the original post) should be charging higher...  Oh well, I do like puzzles.
1974 CB750 Stocker, 1977 CB550F Cafe, 2000 Road King

Offline vintagevalves

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Re: Replacement Regulator/Rectifier CHEAP
« Reply #363 on: July 18, 2012, 05:08:56 pm »
New around here, but not new to wrenching and electrical work!

Just wanted to post my experience with this mod.  At most of my local FLAPS' the regulator was $25-$30.   I found it at o'reilly for $15.  I asked for a 1976 Ford F150 V8 regulator.    O'Reilly part number is 2-VR2.

Got it home to discover that it is the dreaded IASF model.   I first wired it up according to the OP's guide ignoring the ISAF marking, against my better judgement.   I noticed immediately that the battery wansn't really charging.  Quickly killed the ignition after maybe 15 second of revving and also noticed that the regulator was warm to the touch. 

I then tried to hook it up matching the IASF marking properly.   I used this guide from user member Queeg:
Quote
I = not used (dummy light)
  A=  wire from battery( used to monitor voltage) add this or it wont charge
  S= ignition switch (black from original voltage regulator)
  F= Field coil ( white from stock voltage regulator)

Fired it up and at 3000 rpm the bike is charging at a perfect and lovely 14.2 volts.  Regulator is cool as a cucumber. 
Hope this helps someone! 

Offline waynecomp

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Re: Replacement Regulator/Rectifier CHEAP
« Reply #364 on: August 21, 2012, 10:02:50 pm »
So I've been reading, and reading, and reading.
This is what I've come up with.
The bike is an 82 cb650, the block connectors, and wires are off of a stock Honda R/R.
Does this make sense? look right?

BTW this site has taught me so much about my bike. I'm pretty poor, so knowing how to do things on my own is the only way I know how to get things done. :)
94 grand am 3.1
82 cb650 bone stock! (except for the R/R mod)

Offline CycleRanger

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Re: Replacement Regulator/Rectifier CHEAP
« Reply #365 on: August 22, 2012, 07:06:21 am »
I used a VR124. It was plug & play and it's a much smaller than the Ford VR without the extra connectors.
Oh, sorry, I didn't see you're asking about a 650. I used the VR124 for my 750.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 05:22:38 pm by CycleRanger »
Do you have a copy of the Shop Manual?
http://www.honda4fun.com/materiale-documentazione-tecnica/shop-manual
CB750K5        '79 XL250s     CL350K3
CB750K3        '76 XS650      '76 CJ360T

Offline chewbacca5000

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Re: Replacement Regulator/Rectifier CHEAP
« Reply #366 on: August 22, 2012, 07:42:05 am »
I used a VR124. It was plug & play and it's a much smaller than the Ford VR without the extra connectors.

Hi CR,

Nice work.  You really captured my interest with "Plug and Play".  How much does aVR124 unit run and where can they be ordered.

Thanks!

Offline CycleRanger

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Re: Replacement Regulator/Rectifier CHEAP
« Reply #367 on: August 22, 2012, 01:27:29 pm »
I used a VR124. It was plug & play and it's a much smaller than the Ford VR without the extra connectors.

Hi CR,

Nice work.  You really captured my interest with "Plug and Play".  How much does aVR124 unit run and where can they be ordered.

Thanks!

I can't take credit, it was recommended by someone somewhere way earlier in this very thread.
I actually got mine from Amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/Standard-Motor-Products-Voltage-Regulator/dp/B000C7YK4I/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1345666608&sr=8-1&keywords=vr124+regulator
Here's the numbers that cross:
BWD:  R588
Bosch:  30048
Niehoff:  WA709
Standard:  VR124
JC Whitney: KVR502

But it's a pretty standard item that Autozone or Pepboys, O'Reilly etc. should carry. I think it's used in the '76 Porsche 911s.
You can see in the photo how it hooks up. Just remove the plastic plug from the regulator and plug in.
Do you have a copy of the Shop Manual?
http://www.honda4fun.com/materiale-documentazione-tecnica/shop-manual
CB750K5        '79 XL250s     CL350K3
CB750K3        '76 XS650      '76 CJ360T

Offline waynecomp

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Re: Replacement Regulator/Rectifier CHEAP
« Reply #368 on: August 23, 2012, 10:11:45 am »
Anyone?
94 grand am 3.1
82 cb650 bone stock! (except for the R/R mod)

Offline Davidov

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Re: Replacement Regulator/Rectifier CHEAP
« Reply #369 on: August 23, 2012, 02:28:55 pm »
Here is a rectifier I found on eBay for Yahama motorcycles. It's not as cheap as the 3 phase square rectifiers everyone posts on here, but this Yamaha unit includes a heat sink.
The wire colors are the same, right?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Motorcycle-Regulator-Rectifier-Yamaha-DR600-GN450-GS650-GL-GT-KAT-GS1100-13-/251114955712?hash=item3a779e23c0&item=251114955712&pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr
-David

Offline scottly

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Re: Replacement Regulator/Rectifier CHEAP
« Reply #370 on: August 23, 2012, 04:38:51 pm »
Wayne, I've used a Ford regulator, but I'm not familiar with the 650 color codes, so I can't help.
Edit: there should be no connection to the "I" terminal, unless you have an "Indicator", or "Idiot" light. The switched ignition lead should connect to the "S" terminal on the reg.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 04:47:51 pm by scottly »
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Offline waynecomp

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Re: Replacement Regulator/Rectifier CHEAP
« Reply #371 on: August 23, 2012, 05:09:44 pm »
Wayne, I've used a Ford regulator, but I'm not familiar with the 650 color codes, so I can't help.
Edit: there should be no connection to the "I" terminal, unless you have an "Indicator", or "Idiot" light. The switched ignition lead should connect to the "S" terminal on the reg.

I think your right. but im going to look back to see if i can figure how i came to this conclusion.
thanks for the help
94 grand am 3.1
82 cb650 bone stock! (except for the R/R mod)

Offline waynecomp

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Re: Replacement Regulator/Rectifier CHEAP
« Reply #372 on: August 23, 2012, 07:22:10 pm »
Ok. I have to move the black wire on I, to the S terminal.
But look at F. I think I might have that wrong too. F should be the positive side of the field coil, and the other field coil wire goes to ground. I'm going to draw a new layout and post.
94 grand am 3.1
82 cb650 bone stock! (except for the R/R mod)

Offline scottly

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Re: Replacement Regulator/Rectifier CHEAP
« Reply #373 on: August 23, 2012, 07:48:03 pm »
Wayne, like I said before, I'm not familiar with the 650 colors; if you could show what wires on the plugs connect to the 650 field, then it shouldn't to difficult to figure out how to connect it to the Ford reg.
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline waynecomp

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Re: Replacement Regulator/Rectifier CHEAP
« Reply #374 on: August 24, 2012, 08:40:42 am »
This was pretty helpful. if I could find a diagram of what is going on inside the R/R I would be all set.

 
94 grand am 3.1
82 cb650 bone stock! (except for the R/R mod)

 

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