Topic: Going to go look at a cb550! It followed me home, with pictures

[Stev-o]

Use a good lube and That will cause some expansion and will penetrate even better.

That's what she said!

I was about to say something like that but thought  the 2 guy pic may have been pushing it..

Yeah, you're already on double secret probation!

[ekpent]

Ha - that,s funny,you guys are sharp. I have to watch what I say around here, or could it be ,some type of a Freudian slip in my tattered mind       

[RAFster122s]

As far as a key goes, take the seat latch lock off the frame there should be a T#### number stamped on it. Then go search on ebay or there is a website that sells old Honda keys someone else might have the web address.

Will be tough to get the lock off if the seat is locked, that is why I suggested the ignition lock. If the ignition or seat locks were was not replaced, then you are good.

[TwoTired]

The 74's seat lock is pretty easy to pick.  Paper clip and nail file (or slim screwdriver) will do it.  The nail file to put some twist tension on the cylinder and  the paper clip wire to rake the cylinder barrels so they rest on the edge all lined up for the cylinder to twist.
Two cross head screws (#3 if I recall correctly) perhaps with an impact driver, to remove the lock.  Then take the lock to the smith.  He'll read the numbers and make a key from a blank.

http://www.crypto.com/papers/notes/picking/

[Sparked]

I'll try picking the lock to see if the number matches the ignition.  The bike is almost original enough I think it would be safe to take the ignition in to have a key cut, but the ignition itself is loose from the bike as someone was into the headlight/control area of the wiring for something.

[RAFster122s]

74 had the ignition mounted on the front corner of the frame below the tank and headstock.

[Sparked]

Bad News: I brought home a seat on the weekend that I had stored away for a few years, it said cb550f on the bag it was stored in. Unfortunately the seat pan is not the same as the old one I pulled off of the bike tonight.

Good News: Picked up new keys from the locksmith today and opened up the seat, found what looks to be a full toolkit PLUS a set of points.

(for the picture of the seat pan, the one with the tape on it is the unknown model that doesn't quite fit)

[goldarrow]

Check feebay for Pre cut Honda key.  Got mine for about $12 I think

[Sparked]

Thanks Goldarrow, I havn't had good luck with ebay. Shipping to Canada always seems to be more then it should be, or they ship it UPS and then UPS tries to ding me for a $50 flat rate brokerage charge. So $20 at the locksmith to get generic replacement keys in my hand in 15 minutes is worth it.  Maybe when I have the bike done I'll source proper Honda keys for it. I have both the Honda and the Ilco keys for my 350f.

[Deltarider]

The 500's were notorious for transmission issues

May I ask how many cases you know of?
Reason I ask is that in this forum I keep reading what seems like echoes of other posts. This practice results in a certain (toxic) build-up of what others will believe is true. To put things in perspective: I never read about significant more transmission related problems with 500 models in other SOHC fora (German, French, Italian) and my own 500 transmission never ever gave me any trouble. Only parts renewed were a set of frictiondisks and the 4 springs, not uncommon after almost 80.000 kms of severe usage.

[TwoTired]

Honda redesigned the Trans and clutch for a reason.   I talked at length with two different Honda mechanics at two different times.  Both were happy I had the 550 instead of the 500, mainly because of the numerous trans and clutch issues they had to fix under warranty (and beyond) for customer bikes.
Did you miss the posts about the worn/ broken clutch actuator rods?  Broken/frozen screw cam adjusters?  Worn shift forks and shift drum issues?

Honda used parts from the stock room for the clutch on the Cb500.  These were originally 350 pieces.  And, it simply wasn't adequate for the US model 500's peak power (no inlet air restrictor for US models).  As such it had a tendency to slip.  A field adjustment was then attempted to try and alleviate the slippage, leading to a dragging clutch.  The dragging clutch stressed the shifter drum components as well as the shift forks, often bending them.  The dragging clutch made it seem normal for the bike bang into gear from neutral, sometimes breaking off the gear dogs.   Shortly thereafter, the trans needed overhaul.  These CB500 issues were pretty much cured with the Cb550 trans and clutch redesign.

I do think that if the clutch is properly adjusted, the Cb500 trans parts hold up ok.  But, if clutch drag is allowed to persist, the trans parts aren't robust enough to take the abuse.  And, it is not easy to adjust the clutch properly if the actuator rod is worn or broken.  The latter is not easily diagnosed, by non-mechanics.

I don't know how you ride your CB500.  But, here in the US, they got flogged pretty hard.  Drag racing was pretty popular in the 70s, even on the street.
 I am glad your 500 hasn't had any issues.

[Deltarider]

I talked at length with two different Honda mechanics at two different times.

We are very impressed ofcourse but to further avoid terms like 'at length' I took the effort to dig in the archives. See below.

Did you miss the posts about the worn/ broken clutch actuator rods?  Broken/frozen screw cam adjusters?  Worn shift forks and shift drum issues?

No, I did not and that's precisely why I put a question, just a question, remember? As you may have noticed I am on a constant alert for parrotlike echoing that goes on from time to time in this forum and results in toxic myths.
Here are some of my sources.
Twice, June 1973 and the beginning of 1976 the cb500 was subject in a socalled ridersreport in Motor, believe it or not in those years a weekly. Ridersreports were made about popular motorcycles. They had to be sold and owned in great numbers to make the threshold. The CB500 was so popular that it appeared not once but twice!
For such a Rijders Rapport riders of a particular type of motorcycle were requested to fill in a form with numerous questions on use, repairs, experiences (plusses as well as minusses) etc. The owners were asked to list the changes they had made or the extra’s they had bolt on if any and were asked about the repairs they had. The first ridersreport on the CB 500 Four was published by the end of 1973. The average maintained cruising speed of the 62 respondents was 141,8 km/h. Together they had covered 1.145.380 kms. The next ridersreport appeared in the beginning of 1976. Now only 500F-owners that had covered 50.000 kms or more could participate. The average maintained cruising speed of the 39 respondents had dropped to between 125 and 130 km/h (we now had a national speed limit  ). The 39 respondents had covered 2.338.462 kms and that's why the headline read Six times around the world with the Honda 500. The average was 61.538 km per owner. Didn't I tell you bikes were serious means for transportation in those days. Both articles are four pages long and there was a special section for typical repairs and warranty claims. In short, the CB500 was praised for it's overall robustness and reliability.There were complaints about the ignition (sparkplugcaps in particular) in the rain, oilpressureswitches and many suffered the dreary oilleekages around the head. Some had their rearfork bushings replaced. Complaints about the transmission... there were none. Yes, in both articles some riders reported clutchslippage due to weak springs. In both articles the cure was: replace by plates and/or springs of the CB450 and you'll be fine. No mention of broken rods or other damaged parts whatsoever. Will you please look again at the miles (6 times around the world). One could rightly say: those bikes were used at length  . In my archives there are numerous articles in German, French, Italian motormags with all kinds of articles about the 500/550 series. Ofcourse when the 550 was the subject, some articles mentioned the new clutch, but nowhere have I read a remark about the 500 transmission as being inferior or that 'Honda had a reason'. Nevertheless some things get better with newer models. But to say the 500 had a poor quality transmission, far from it. Still in May 1994 the British Classic&Motorcycle Mechanics had this to say when they rode a twenty years old CB500 and I quote: One department that would be acceptable by todays standards is the gearbox. It is simply superb. [end of quote].
That is... if you know how to use it, ofcourse. These bikes shift best when revved and sometimes when I'm in a sporty mood I don't even bother to use the clutch at all whilst upshifting. If however you like to shift at Harleylike rpms I don't know if that's wise.

Does all this proof anything? Nah, not really… I just like to put things in perspective a bit when people state things and when you ask them to be precise all of a sudden they have no personal experience and it's from hearsay or they've read it somewhere in this forum. That's why internet is partly killing true knowledge.
If any of you can read Dutch, I'll be happy to post forsaid articles.
Although I have ample personal experience (in 135.000 kms only one set of plates and one set of springs) I limited myself to ask a question, just a question.
I suppose you have no experience with the European way of driving. It's more aggressive than in the USA. We think you guys are very relaxed and very polite in traffic. I'm afraid it's a bit different here. I know that there are Americans that don't even dare to drive overhere.

[TwoTired]

toxic myths.

You seem quite enamored of that phrase.   Perhaps I'll adopt it as a theme...

Here are some of my sources.  ...
Ridersreports were made about popular motorcycles.

Was this a magazine that you paid to acquire?  Did they have advertising in them?  Such as from motorcycle manufacturers?
You believe such publications are immune from mythology?

For such a Rijders Rapport riders of a particular type of motorcycle were requested to fill in a form with numerous questions on use, repairs, experiences (plusses as well as minusses) etc. ....
 62 ...
 The next ridersreport appeared in the beginning of 1976. Now only 500F-owners that had covered 50.000 kms or more could participate. ... 39 respondents.... Yes, in both articles some riders reported clutchslippage due to weak springs. In both articles the cure was: replace by plates and/or springs of the CB450 and you'll be fine. No mention of broken rods or other damaged parts whatsoever. 

This was an opinion poll that you are basing your own toxic myth?
And only from selected (62+39) respondents who cared about saying something about their machine?  Were any respondents eliminated from the report?  If so, for what reason?  How many machines were sold into the "ridersreports" geographical sample base?  Ever heard of respondent selection?  Did any of the respondents that got rid of their bike for something else have a chance to respond?  Were, they excluded because they were no longer owners?   Ever heard of cherry picking the respondents or designing the questionaire to bias the results toward a desired outcome?  And why have you totally discounted the respondents/reports in this very forum?

Let me explain how polling works.  True story.
In downtown San Fransisco during the mid 70s, a new brand of Cigarettes was being introduced and marketed (I think it was Meridian, if I recall correctly, not sure).  On one street corner, they handed out free packs to interested smokers strolling by.   In a one block radius away from the handout point was an army of canvassers, asking smokers what brand of cigarette they were smoking now, what they usually smoked and then recording the responses.
These results were collected at the lab, and the data tallied.  Lo and behold 80% of the surveyed smokers were smoking Meridian cigarettes over their normal brand.  Shortly thereafter, there was a media blitz nationwide with the statement that 80% of smokers surveyed smoked Meridian over their traditional brand choice.  Shouldn't you try Meridian, too?

But to say the 500 had a poor quality transmission, far from it. Still in May 1994 the British Classic&Motorcycle Mechanics had this to say when they rode a twenty years old CB500 and I quote: One department that would be acceptable by todays standards is the gearbox. It is simply superb. [end of quote].

Magazine editors would never print anything untrue or biased, I suppose.  .. Unless it improved circulation figures or increased advertising income.

Anyway, the CB500 Trans gears themselves aren't the root of the issue.  The shift mechanism and clutch pieces are, which leads to trans damage if not corrected in short order.

Let's see, you maintain (based on your chosen mythology), that the CB500 mechanisms were never any sort of problem.  But, nonetheless Honda spent half a million dollars on re-engineering, retooling the engine castings, adding a separate transmission oil pump, making new metal stamping dies, creating a plethora of new machined parts, and gaskets, because an extra 50cc of displacement would increase sales so much as to repay the expense in short order? 
This is really your belief?  Or, just a different myth to foment?
Do you know what a metal casting molds cost?  Do you know what metal stamping dies cost?

I'll mention, I've read long past magazine articles that said Honda's Cb550 model revision, was just a thinly veiled cover up for the necessary redesign of the clutch and shifter.

Does all this proof anything?

Does trying to combat one "myth" with another ever prove anything?

I suppose you have no experience with the European way of driving. It's more aggressive than in the USA. We think you guys are very relaxed and very polite in traffic. I'm afraid it's a bit different here. I know that there are Americans that don't even dare to drive overhere.

Starting another "toxic myth?  Just trying to incite a different argument?  Or, reiterating that all Europeans are innately superior to each and every American?

No, I haven't driven in Europe, and I doubt I ever will.  I can imagine the traffic laws and driving behavior are quite, er, "foreign".  I certainly wouldn't want to learn the specifics in a high traffic area.  I like to drive like my (and other people's), lives depend on it.  But, if you think there are no aggressive drivers here in America, you are sorely mistaken (or starting yet another "toxic myth".)

It is my opinion, supported by Honda's revision actions, and warranty mechanics, that the Cb550's mechanical configuration is superior to the CB500's.  If there is a choice between the two machines, the 550 is the way to go.  The CB500 is still a good machine, particularly if one keeps the clutch operating at it's peak.  But, if one disregard's clutch problem issues, the CB550 will survive longer.

Do enjoy your CB500!

[Deltarider]

Boy, oh boy, here I have annoyed you again. The topic of European motormags we have discussed before. At lenght! I even mentioned the German article where the 550F2 was critisized (ofcourse in that case they didn't get paid enough in your opinion .). 500s and 550s overhere were sold in the tens of thousands. Believe what you want. Every time you have the same reaction. If one quotes a source and you don't like it, that source is corrupt. As far as I am concerned, there is no discussion about the 550 clutch. I think it is a better one. It's just this strange jumping to conclusions...
Look, when I don't know something, I put a question. If I do know something, I mention where I got that knowledge, so everybody can judge the value of the message. But I refrain from pompous phrases like "Honda had a reason". What do you know? Where you there?
Can you explain the 500 transmission has always been praised as an example (knife through the butter)? No mag here ever mentioned it was a bad one. Not one. They all were paid by Honda to cover up? But then, how about the other critic on so many other things? Didn't they need to be covered up? None of the respondents had complaints about the transmission. I just presented those polls. Boy, they have made you mad. There goes your phantasy world again. Now you go again questioning the reports. What then in the world can I present?! Two chats with a mechanic? What do you know about statistic? Ever studied it?

[Stev-o]

Delta -  I own several SOHC Hondas including a '76 550K, but no CB500.

Why did Honda change the clutch design after only 3 model years (in the U.S).

[Deltarider]

It's this hindsind bias. Aren't things changed constantly then? Are the things changed when the 650 entered the market proof that the things on the 550s before were rotten? What kind of reasoning is that? Such reasoning indicates an idée fix.
TT is a valued member of this forum. But he is also an expert in making whatever one presents that doesn't fit what he has precooked in his mind suspect. I have ample experience with that. The suggestion that these mags were paid by advertiser Honda is absurd, but then what else was there left for him to say. Didn't then Suzuki advertise in these magazines, didn't Kawasaki, didn't Yamaha... didn't all the competition?
What else can one present, not to proof anything but to attribute information when one has all this material at hand? Conversations at length? You'd rather have that?

[TwoTired]

500s and 550s overhere were sold in the tens of thousands.

And yet you base your opinion on (62+39) respondents who cared enough about saying something regarding their machine?  Do the math. 101/10000 = 1%.
Whereas, Honda had access to 100% of their warranty and dealer repair shop service records, leading to the shop manual pages attached below.
Where did you get your sales figures?   And what part of the sales referenced were CB500s?  Don't you think these are important numbers to scrutinize for an objective approach?

What do you know? Where you there?

Can you explain the 500 transmission has always been praised as an example (knife through the butter)?

OK, I'll play.  The examples examined were cherry picked from those with superior maintenance.  (Can you prove otherwise?)

No mag here ever mentioned it was a bad one. Not one. They all were paid by Honda to cover up?

A proof based on nothing is no proof at all.  I'm sorry, but do you actually mean to imply that NONE of the CB500s produced ever had a trans, shifter, or clutch problem?  Amazing that Honda provided Service bulletins about them at all, let alone changed it drastically for the 74 model year.

Did your reference data mention if all the respondents had SB 500#4 and SB 500#9 performed to them?  Do you think such upgrades may have impact on report credibility?

But then, how about the other critic on so many other things? Didn't they need to be covered up? None of the respondents had complaints about the transmission. I just presented those polls. Boy, they have made you mad.

The word "mad" means "crazy" or "angry", and I am neither.  Perplexed at your dogged obstinance and myopic veiwpoint, yeah kinda.  I'm just not inclined to let it go unchallenged.  I just have a habit of trying to fix things that are broken.

There goes your phantasy world again. Now you go again questioning the reports. What then in the world can I present?!

Relevant facts would be nice.  Rather than heresay, inuendo, or testimonial presented as factual data from an alternate phantasy world.  Here is a parallel example. There is a known issue with the rocker shaft hole elongation on both the CB500 and CB550.  I have repaired examples with this problem.  I also have examples that never had this problem, but they are all at risk if not upgraded per SB 500/550#8.  If I only had one bike and it never had the rocker shaft hole problem, should I then proclaim that it never really existed as I could find no magazine reports regarding it?

What do you know about statistic? Ever studied it?

Yes, I have.  Further, it was part of my job to try and project manufacturing yields (or product returns) from short production runs where I had 100% of the data for a small production sample.  And that is VERY VERY different from having 1% of the data from 10,000 manufactured samples.

But, I notice you evaded the question about who advertised in your preferred script references.
Perhaps you missed the point about magazine integrity and relevance, because my questions and statements annoyed and contradicted you?   It's about business.  If you were a motorcycle manufacturer, would you be more inclined to pay for advertisements in a publication that generally praised motorcycles, or one that pointed out and exaggerated any flaw perceived by the writers or poll respondents?
It's not that Honda would pay for a coverup.  It is that no Motorcycle manufacturer is going support or aid a publication that may damage their reputation and sales of motorcycles.  A business that shoots the golden goose, must find alternate income, whether that be motorcycle manufacturer or magazine publisher.

If your "RidersReport" publication was paid for totally by subcriber/ recipients, that would certainly lend a flavor of objectivity.
While "RidersReport" does SOUND like Consumer reports, does it have the same no commercial use policy?

Ask yourself this question.  Have I looked for info from unbiased sources, or have I only accepted reports that shared the same favorable view I presently have?

For years I've been reading reviews in publications.  And have learned to be wary of anything paid for by advertisers, direct or indirectly.  For one example, RCM had model airplane review articles for new product introductions.  There were no negative reviews.  Each new model assembled easily and flew great with no bad habits.  I saw many of these same models at our flying field.  In person evaluation ranged from total crap to very competent and well done, with flying habits in the same range.  It was eventually revealed that the product reviewers were GIVEN models and kits to review and the manufacturer cherry picked the writer based on his track record of providing favorable reviews.  RCM eventually folded up shop, by the way, as the subscribers got tired of paying for false advertising from it's writers, as well as a magazine whose contents were 60% or more outright product ad pages.

I have also subscribed to publications such as Aviation Consumer, Gun tests, Aviation Safety,  Avionics review (now defunct).  These all share the idea of independent review of products and equipment without manufacturer monetary influence, direct or indirect.

You have rejected the notion that the CB500 to 550 development was more than simple minor product evolution. 
You don't think that a major parts interchangeability ripple in production is significant?  Let's look at the SOHC4 line.
CB350F to CB400F.  Major parts interchangeability, retooling issues with model change, yes.   13% displacement increase.
CB500 to Cb550. Major parts interchangeability, retooling issues with model change, yes.   10% displacement increase.
Cb550 to CB650.  Major parts interchangeability, retooling issues with model change, yes.   15% displacement increase.
CB750 to  ____.  Major parts interchangeability, retooling issues with model change, not so much.   0% displacement increase.

In summation Delta, if you wish to cling to the belief that the C500 Clutch, shift mechanism, and transmission are without flaw of any kind, you are well equipped to do so with your chosen information base.  And, if anyone wishes to believe your praise of this pinnacle of mechanized supremacy, they are free to join your cult under your evangelistic leadership.

I believe their is ample evidence to the contrary.  The reader can decide for him/herself whether this forum is more or less credible regarding service issues with the Cb500.

[Deltarider]

In summation Delta, if you wish to cling to the belief that the C500 Clutch, shift mechanism, and transmission are without flaw of any kind, you are well equipped to do so with your chosen information base.  And, if anyone wishes to believe your praise of this pinnacle of mechanized supremacy, they are free to join your cult under your evangelistic leadership.

I've picked this quote but could have chosen others to show how malicious you represent what I've put. Where did I personally say the transmission was without a flaw of any kind? Please, where? I presented material that attributes information for everybody to evaluate. Material that doesn't fit in your world. That was after I asked someone (not you) a question about if that someone had any personal experience. All this in my strive to stop this internet echoing that kills true knowledge and creates toxic waste. And - as expected - the Spanish Inquisition rides out on me again, still traumatised by been corrected on previous occasions. Sorry for you, but I will continue to pass on what is in my archives. As long as I mention sources and as long as everybody is free to evaluate, there's nothing wrong with that. So far I have not had complaints except from you. Some articles are even found under CB500 articles http://www.sohc4.net/cb500-articles/, can you believe that? Readers can also evaluate your childish way of reacting and I trust they will.
O, yeah, remember Fluffy, my paper filter element? It's out of its plastic bag* for years now and is still breathing like new. Isn't that silly? Thank Goodness you're not an autist of some kind. It would have given you sleepless nights.

* Actually, I can't recall it ever was in a plastic bag.

[Ewan 500K1]

acht give it a break you guys     .. or maybe start an arguing thread somewhere else .. i think we have enough to go now

[Sparked]

Pulled the left side covers off and pulled the plugs. Poured ATF/Acetone mix down the cylinders to start loosening things up. Found one plug with broken porcelain and rusty on the cylinder side. I'm guessing that'll mean moisture got into the cylinder and I'm going to be pulling the head to check on the condition. Found seeds squirreled away behind the chain cover too.