Author Topic: dwell questions  (Read 6803 times)

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Offline KRONUS0100

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dwell questions
« on: August 07, 2013, 12:16:41 PM »
hi guys.  this is not about points, i finally understand them and have them set
engine idles smooth and advance is correct,  .014 point gap
  my question is about understanding dwell.
i know it affects point gap.
i hooked up my sears black box today and verified a couple things i wanted to check, dwell being one of them.  it says i have 36 degrees of dwell on 1-4 and 2-3 points.  Factory manual states 46-49 degrees
so i am off 10 degrees.  nothing i can find states as how to or when to adjust dwell.
do i adjust with engine running, if so at what rpm?
do i adjust it with engine not running, using static method?
big question is..................is my dwell just checked on 1 set of points or both? 
thanks in advance.      Matt
MATT
current bikes:  1976 CB750F, 1981 GS1100E
bikes owned:1981 GL1100I, 1990 GS500E, 1981 GS850, 1977 and 1979 GS750, 1974 CB750, 1975 CB750, and a 1982 GS750E

Offline Pat_at_APE

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Re: dwell questions
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2013, 12:29:10 PM »
Increase your point gap and dwell will increase as well.  The a dwell meter is used to set the point gap so you get into the factory spec.  Just make sure you are reading the correct scale.

Using a feeler gauge works but is much less precise. 

Being old enough to know what a dwell meter is makes me feel even older! 

Regards,
Pat at APE

Offline iron_worker

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Re: dwell questions
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2013, 12:55:21 PM »
*Decreasing* point gap increases dwell. The coils are "charging" while the points are closed. The smaller the points gap, the more crank angle angle (and thus time) the coils will be "charging" for.

Dwell is a measurement of the angle of rotation the crank goes through while the coils are being energized (points closed). Not enough dwell means your coils will not fully "charge" between spark events at high RPM. Too much dwell increases the amount heat buildup in your coils. I doubt you'd ever burn one up because of it but it probably reduces the life of them to be out of spec.

IW

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Re: dwell questions
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2013, 01:20:07 PM »
I have the same meter to see how it works change the gap on one set of points then look at the meter reading you will see what IW is talking about IMHO the best use for the dwell meter on our bikes is to get both sets of points set to the same gap. I find a wire type gauge better than a flat one Set 1-4 with the wire then see what the meter reads ( make note of this no matter what it is) and set 2-3 to match 1-4. It does not matter what scale you are on or what the reading is. This meter was not designed for our system. Even when you get a new set of points you will use that same meter reading mark it on the meter with a sharpie. Now someone will tell me I'm wrong I have been before ;)

Offline TwoTired

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Re: dwell questions
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2013, 01:25:06 PM »
In effect, Dwell is the same thing as point gap.
It's geometry.
The point cam profile determines the time the points spend open and closed, when using the specified gap.  Dwell is the amount of crank rational degrees where the points are closed.  This time is used to charge up the coils.  Because of the cam profile, if there is a correct point opening gap, when the points closed time will also be correct.
The cam is actually supposed to close the points through 195 degrees of crank rotation on the SOHC4.  The way dwell meters measure this is by comparing a time constant internal capacitor/resistor charge/discharge times with the time power is supplied when the points are open.  They don't actually measure crank angles, they measure time constants, and compare that to an internal reference set by the meter designer.  Standard ignitions for autos "of the day" used a single coil to fire individual spark plugs.  Each revolution of a 4 cycle engine crankshaft fired 4 cylinders of an eight cylinder engine, 3 for a 6 cyl and 2 for 4 cyl), and the point cam was shaped for a duration of coil charge times sufficient to provide spark for the next cylinder.  This is why you see dwell meters either provide different scale markings to reference or additional switches (changing internal time constants) to make the scale read correctly for the engine under test.

None of the scales used for 4, 6, or 8 cylinder 4 cycle engine will read correctly for our 4 cylinder, two coil, wasted spark systems.  Our coils discharge and charge once per crankshaft revolution as a 2 cycle engine would experience, and we have two points systems operating off a single crankshaft mounted cam.
They are adjusted independently.  In essence, our ignition system dwell meter should be designed for a 1 cylinder 2 cycle engine to give an accurate dwell indication.

Does this mean we can't use an automotive dwell meter?  No, we can.  We just have to calibrate the scale to be meaningful to us.
To calibrate, we use a brand new set of points with known flat contacts.  Set the gap at the optimum opening, and note where the needle points on the dwell meter with the engine running.  (If possible, use a switch setting the puts the needle mid scale.)   This is now your reference point for all future measurement on the SOHC4.  It won't matter if the point contacts are worn irregularly, you can set the proper gap and dwell from your calibrated dwell meter without using a feeler gauge.  Just make the meter needle point to your calibrated tick mark while adjusting the gap.

The danger of all this is when the points mounting plate moves about later during the timing operation of a running engine, as lateral movement of the plate effects both timing AND the point gap/dwell.  The desire is to set dwell and then the timing, but, if the timing operation changes the dwell, you've created a recursive (perhaps endless) loop of adjustments.  With the plate loosened for timing changes, the cam position and point springs can move the plate about and negate or randomize your precision dwell adjustment in direct relation to the amount the plate can move within its mounting.  With a gap setting of .014" and a lateral plate movement of .007", your possible point gap can vary from .021" to .007", and that will make a significant difference in your dwell reading.  The tester then puts on a face like...   ???

I didn't proofread the above for spelling etc..  ...out of time.  Maybe do that later...
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline KurtK

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Re: dwell questions
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2013, 02:24:04 PM »
Thank you gentlemen for your explanations.  I never really understood dwell.

Offline Pat_at_APE

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Re: dwell questions
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2013, 03:14:45 PM »
Thanks guys.... I stand corrected.... 

Truth:  I hate that meter...  I just set gap with a feeler gauge and don't measure it any longer...  My old BMW car ate points so often that I put in an electronic unit.  My two CB's have been no problems but it's time to order the replacement parts (points and condensers) so when needed I've got them.

Pat at APE

Offline KRONUS0100

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Re: dwell questions
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2013, 08:23:26 PM »
thanks for the informative replies.  my gap is .014 and the bike is smooth,  and now the meter isnt designed for our bikes i will ignore its dwell reading.  time to button it all up and taker he down the road.   i will make a note on the meter tho so i have a reference point later on.  thank you very much.
MATT
current bikes:  1976 CB750F, 1981 GS1100E
bikes owned:1981 GL1100I, 1990 GS500E, 1981 GS850, 1977 and 1979 GS750, 1974 CB750, 1975 CB750, and a 1982 GS750E

Offline grumpy

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Re: dwell questions
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2013, 09:36:14 PM »
So TT -

You're saying: new points, set one set with feelers (?), then continue on using the dwell meter ?

Offline texianbiker

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Re: dwell questions
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2013, 10:29:07 PM »
The old saying goes something like "Don't fix something that ain't broke." ;D

Offline grumpy

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Re: dwell questions
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2013, 10:31:59 PM »
The old saying goes something like "Don't fix something that ain't broke." ;D

Nope - It's "Fix it till it's broke"

Offline TwoTired

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Re: dwell questions
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2013, 11:10:54 PM »
So TT -

You're saying: new points, set one set with feelers (?), then continue on using the dwell meter ?
Mostly.  You calibrate the dwell meter to the newly set new points.  Then you can use the dwell meter on used points (or the other new one) to obtain the correct dwell thereafter.  But, an ill fitting points plate can screw with all your points settings during an engine running adjustment of either dwell or timing while the plate is loose for adjustment purposes.  It will read true when the plates are tightened down.  But, the setting may not be what your goal was.  However, if everything reads correct (dwell and timing) after the plate is locked down, you're good to go.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline grumpy

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Re: dwell questions
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2013, 07:11:14 AM »
Quote
You calibrate the dwell meter to the newly set new points.  Then you can use the dwell meter on used points (or the other new one) to obtain the correct dwell thereafter

Right-o.

Thanks

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Re: dwell questions
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2013, 07:19:29 AM »
So TT -

You're saying: new points, set one set with feelers (?), then continue on using the dwell meter ?
Mostly.  You calibrate the dwell meter to the newly set new points.  Then you can use the dwell meter on used points (or the other new one) to obtain the correct dwell thereafter.  But, an ill fitting points plate can screw with all your points settings during an engine running adjustment of either dwell or timing while the plate is loose for adjustment purposes.  It will read true when the plates are tightened down.  But, the setting may not be what your goal was.  However, if everything reads correct (dwell and timing) after the plate is locked down, you're good to go.

I think this may be another use for the dwell meter you could see if your plate is sloppy  by how the meter is moving.

Offline lucky

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Re: dwell questions
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2013, 08:37:02 AM »
Thank you gentlemen for your explanations.  I never really understood dwell.

Let me boil it down.
The dwell is the amount of degrees of crank rotation that the points are closed.

Set the dwell meter for the 4 cylinder engine(50º). Then divide by 2.
So you will want the dwell at about 27º.

If you cannot get the dwell the same on both sets  with in a degree or two ,then you need new points. Always replace points and condensers as a set. Then you will not be wondering,"Why did my points not last very long?"


Just install new points then start the engine and check the dwell.

Offline Zora

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Re: dwell questions
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2013, 08:59:27 PM »
How close should the dwell readings be between the 1-4 and 2-3 cylinders? I think I had two degrees difference the last time I adjusted my timing. Is this close enough?

Thanks.

Steve
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Offline Bootlegger56

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Re: dwell questions
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2013, 09:24:44 PM »
Now I'm dwelling on whether to dwell or not to dwell!!!!  Sorry couldn't hep myself...its late!!
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Re: dwell questions
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2013, 06:03:32 AM »
How close should the dwell readings be between the 1-4 and 2-3 cylinders? I think I had two degrees difference the last time I adjusted my timing. Is this close enough?

Thanks.

Steve

You should be able to get them the same. Get new points or dress the ones you have if need be. Make sure the needle is at zero before you start with that screw in the front bottom. Make really sure you look at the meter dead straight on the same exact way for both reading. Keep in mind every thing TT pointed out.

Offline lucky

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Re: dwell questions
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2013, 08:05:28 AM »
How close should the dwell readings be between the 1-4 and 2-3 cylinders? I think I had two degrees difference the last time I adjusted my timing. Is this close enough?

Thanks.

Steve

Yes,that is close enough.

Offline lucky

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Re: dwell questions
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2013, 08:10:25 AM »
Now I'm dwelling on whether to dwell or not to dwell!!!!  Sorry couldn't hep myself...its late!!

IF you do not check the dwell the points could be gapped right but you could still have weak spark because the phonelic block that rides on the points cam is worn.
Or you adjusted worn out points which will give you a false setting of the points.
You cannot use a thickness gauge on a set of old worn out points because the contacts of the points has little peaks on one side and holes on the other side and then you file down those little peaks and then you think you are setting the points correctly but you still have weak spark.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 08:12:23 AM by lucky »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: dwell questions
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2013, 11:02:46 AM »
IF you do not check the dwell the points could be gapped right but you could still have weak spark because the phonelic block that rides on the points cam is worn.
Or you adjusted worn out points which will give you a false setting of the points.
Just stating that the above comments are technically unjustifiable.

The block begins to wear upon the first revolution of the crank.  And so, will be "worn" soon after engine start.   
The spark will achieve full power if the dwell or accurate gap (jagged or not ) is properly set.  Proper dwell = proper gap= proper coil charge up time.  The dealership must have loved Lucky, replacing points for every serviced bike unsuspecting owners brought in.  $$$   This serves to prove that many dealerships were more interested in fleecing their patrons to the maximum amount to bolster their business, than to provide honest service.

I've been reconditioning points for years, without spark or run issues related.  Flat contacts give you correct feeler gauge gap AND dwell AND coil charge times.  It matters not if the points look like crocodile teeth, if the dwell is correct (as well as the effective gap), then so is the coil charge time and spark strength.

If you want to throw away parts with service life remaining, you are certainly free to do so.  It's your money, until you give it away.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

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Re: dwell questions
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2013, 12:24:18 PM »
Hey I was just about to say that ;D Well I did think of it but you Sir have a way with words that I shall never have. I just have some common sense ;) that has served me well. I would think the phonelic block or what ever it is made of is longer than need be to build in some adjustment for wear. I get about 2 or 3 dressings on my points before changing. Maybe more now that I have a HondaMan box on but it is in the test phase.
From Lucky "IF you do not check the dwell the points could be gapped right but you could still have weak spark because the phonelic block that rides on the points cam is worn." You will have to explain this to me. My way of thinking is if I have the points set at 14 thousands the dwell will read XXX and after 1000 miles if the points are adjusted back to the same 14 thousands after adjusting for a little wear the dwell will read the same as before. Am I right or am I missing something?
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 12:35:46 PM by Black 750K8 »

Offline 74750k4

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Re: dwell questions
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2013, 01:01:40 PM »
If you have, or get, a DVM that has a Duty Cycle measurement function, you can eliminate eyeballing an analog meter. Dwell Angle is easily determined from Duty Cycle.
Dwell Angle = Duty Cycle/1.1   So, for our bikes, the preferred dwell setting of 47.5 deg.,  is also a 52.25% duty cycle.



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Offline TwoTired

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Re: dwell questions
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2013, 01:15:44 PM »
If you measure the SOHC4 points cam profile, you will find that it is machined for 190 degrees (using proper points gap), and it has only 1 low point on it.
190/360 = 52.77% duty cycle.

Honda didn't seem to get around to specifying dwell angle in the shop manual until 77, I think.  Says, 190 +/-5 degrees.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline 74750k4

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Re: dwell questions
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2013, 01:19:55 PM »
or 47.97 degrees