Author Topic: 1976 750F SS...rectifiyer, regulator, both? solid state? Confused....  (Read 2727 times)

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Offline Hophead199

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I have a 1976 CB750 F Super Sport...That’s not holding a charge. Brand new battery, so I’m thinking of replacing the regulator as a start. I also think its a good idea to replace both as it applies (reg and rec), but I’m a little confused as to what is best to get, electrical systems are not my forte and the statement “For use on early phase 3 systems with separate rectifier and regulators” doesn’t do me any good. Any advice would be greatly appreciated...

Here is a sample of what my choices are from a supplyer...

Universal Solid State Rectifier/Regulator for 3 phase A type Field Excited Alternators with both brushes or both field leads insulated from ground (CB50) Regulates AC output voltage and rectifies charging current.

Rectifier/Regulator
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Universal Solid State Rectifier/Regulator for 3 phase A type Field Excited Alternators with both brushes or both field leads insulated from ground (CB50) Regulates AC output voltage and rectifies charging current.

Fits: All Honda CB750 SOHC Models (1970-78)
Rectifier Only - Solid state type
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Solid State type Rectifier unit. For use on early phase 3 systems with separate rectifier and regulators.

Fits: Early Honda CB750 models
Rectifier
Add to Cart
Rectifier Only - 3 phase - 5 Wire - 3 AC in - 2 DC out

Made in Japan

OEM Ref. # 31700-333-008, 31700-323-015

Fits: Honda CB750K (1969-78)
CB750F (1975-78) Supersport


Offline Zaipai

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Re: 1976 750F SS...rectifiyer, regulator, both? solid state? Confused....
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2013, 09:41:31 AM »
Here is what I got for my CB550F/75 it works really well. It replaces both. It should work on your bike.

http://www.power-barn.com/servlet/the-1585/Honda-OEM-Style-Regulator-fdsh-Rectifier/Detail

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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: 1976 750F SS...rectifiyer, regulator, both? solid state? Confused....
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2013, 10:10:44 AM »
You really need to diagnose your issue first. Many guys have gone with a solid state unit just assuming it's going to make things better when it really wasn't needed. While the older original parts have worked fine for all these years, and your's may still be good, there's nothing wrong with modern technology vs yesterdays' mechanical stuff. It's just a hundred bucks if you have that to spare but it might be used on the real problem instead. Using a combined RR is convenient but if one side goes out you have to replace both the reg and the rect as a unit. I prefer the combined one myself. Less clutter.

Have you checked the 'hardware'? ie stator and field coil. Easy to do. These rarely go bad. Get that out of the way. Check the rectifier. easy to do. The diodes in it can get fried and not let enough current through. Get that out of the way. Check the regulator. If it's not performing up to specs it may just need  some TLC like cleaning it's points. If you're lucky you'll find one of these 'easy' components has gone bad. Simply replace it. Otherwise get into the wiring harness. That'll piss you off big time unless you luckily find a bad wire/connector, etc. Like MANY of us you may need to go through ALL your connectors and clean/tighten them. You can lose voltage at the switches and ignition switch too.

PS - WELCOME TO THE OLD SOHC4s  ;D  If I was to pick the weakest link on these bikes and the bain of our existence I'd say it's exactly what you are dealing with. Hope you are a patient and methodical man.
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline nokrome

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Re: 1976 750F SS...rectifiyer, regulator, both? solid state? Confused....
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2013, 11:05:53 AM »
if you do decide to go with a single unit reg/rec check these guys out. http://oregonmotorcycleparts.com/SOHCfours.html
 I've been using one of these units for about four years with no problems
Funny thing about regret is...... its better to regret something you have done than to regret something you haven't done.

Offline Hophead199

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Re: 1976 750F SS...rectifiyer, regulator, both? solid state? Confused....
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2013, 11:25:39 AM »
Very good stuff guys...I surly appreciate it...Now it's time to go out to the garage for some serious head scratching and cussing! Wish me luck! and Thanks again...JC

Offline Xnavylfr

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Re: 1976 750F SS...rectifiyer, regulator, both? solid state? Confused....
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2013, 11:45:54 AM »
Contact this guy.

http://www.lowridersbysummers.com/parts/index.htm

He has the REG/REC combo that is a direct wire in for the CB750. The R/R is down his parts page a ways but it is there.
By the way LRT has been building and working on CB750s since the 70s. Don't let the LOWRIDER throw you!!

Xnavylfr(CHUCK)

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 1976 750F SS...rectifiyer, regulator, both? solid state? Confused....
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2013, 12:32:05 PM »
One way of correcting "charging issues" is to replace each part in turn until it works.  I prefer to locate the errant part and just fix or replace that one.  So:

Charging system methodical verification checks, CB750, CB550, CB500, CB400, and CB350.

Begin with problem verification and characterization with recorded data.
A -- Fully charge a known good battery.  Let it rest for 2 hours, off the charger, and measure the battery voltage.  (Target is 12.6-12.8V.)
B -- Start the bike and measure the battery voltage at idle, 2000, 3000, 4000, and 5000 rpm.
C -- Repeat the measurements of B with lighting off.

The above tests identify charging system success, failure, or degree of "faulty".  The success voltages are listed in the Shop manual.

D -- Assuming the above indicates faulty, do check the RECTIFIER diodes with a diode tester or ohmmeter capable of testing diodes and uses more than .7 volts to make the test(s).
Of the twelve test made in D, six must read low ohms and six must read very high ohms.

E- assuming no faults were found in D,  Measure the white and green wires disconnected from the REGULATOR.  CB750s should 6.8 ohms - ish,  CB550s/350s/ and 400s should read 4.9 ohms- ish.

F- If there are no bullet holes or road rash/divots on the alternator case, the stator is probably good.  But, you can check for yellow to yellow continuity (.35 ohms) among all the wires, and that no yellow wire has continuity to the engine case.

G- Assuming no faults found in D, E, and F, measure the disconnected terminals of the REGULATOR.  The black and white terminals should measure zero ohms (subtract meter error if there is any).  Higher than Zero ohms, indicates internal contact contamination needing cleaning and attention per shop manual.

H - Assuming D, E, F, and G have not found faults. We can verify all the of the charging system minus the regulator is functioning correctly, by using a temporary jumper to connect the disconnected white wire (normally attached to the REGULATOR) and connecting the White directly to the the battery POS terminal.  Repeat the B and C tests.  However, if at any time the battery voltage rises above 15V, stop the test.  Such an indication would prove the charging system capable of maintaining a known good battery.  If this test never achieves 15V, then there is a wire/connector issue in either the ground path leading back to the battery NEG terminal, a wiring/ connector issue withe the rectifier RED path to the battery POS terminal, or you made a mistake in D through G.

I - (not used, can be confused with L)

J -  The only parts that remain to prove or expose are the REGULATOR (in active mode) and the electrical path between the battery POS terminal and the black wire that connects to the REGULATOR.

K - Lying to and starving the regulator
The regulator can only do its job correctly if it gets a proper voltage report of true battery voltage status.  The Vreg monitors the Black wire for this status.  Measuring the voltage lost between the Battery terminals and the Vreg connections identifies problems that are not really the charging system's fault.
Two connection paths must be checked, the Battery POS terminal to the Black wire connection at the VReg, and the Battery NEG terminal to the Green wire connection to the Vreg.  A volt meter can measure these losses directly by placing a probe between the two identified points, Black path and then the green path.  The numbers are summed and the error seen by the Vreg quantified.  Anything over .5V loss is cause for concern and anything over 1V is a certain issue to be corrected.  Each connector, terminal, fuse clip, or switch in the pathway can cause voltage reporting loss.

The regulator also passes the received voltage on to to the Alternator field coil to create a magnetic field within the alternator,  The voltage level determines the strength of the magnetic field and the maximum output capability of the alternator.  Therefore, starving  the Vreg of true battery voltage leads to reduced max output capability of the alternator.

L - regulator operation/verification.
  The Vreg sends voltage to the alternator field in response to measured voltage which is battery state of charge.  Any voltage at the battery of less than 13.5V sends full black wire voltage to the alternator's white wire.  The alternator output will vary with RPM, even if "told" to produce max power by the Vreg.  If the alternator has enough RPM to overcome system load, any excess power is routed to the battery which will raise the battery voltage (slowly if depleted and rapidly if nearly full).   When the battery reaches 14.5V, the regulator reduces the voltage to the alternator, reducing output strength and preventing battery overcharge.  If the battery exceeds 14.7V, the regulator clamps the alternator field coil power to zero (0V), effective shutting off the alternator.

Because, there is electrical load from the system, an alternator that is not producing power allows the battery to deplete and the voltage falls.  The Vreg responds by turning the alternator back on in accordance with battery state/ charge level.

The Vreg state changes can be monitored/verified by observing the battery voltage state, and the White wire to the alternator field.  (Two meters are handy for this.)  The "trip" voltages can be adjusted with the adjust screw, while changing engine RPM and electrical load that the bike presents to the battery/charging system to "make" the battery reach the voltage levels need for the set trip points.  IE. with load reduced (lighting off) and the engine above 2500 RPM, a charged battery will attain 14.5 V.  Anything above that and the adjust screw needs to be backed out to keep the battery safe from harm.
The shop manual outlines bench set up mechanical adjustments that should be performed on unknown or tampered units.  These should be resolved before final trip point adjust tuning.

Note that while the system is working, the Vreg can change states rapidly before your very eyes., changing 5 times or more while you blink.  Therefore, you may have to mentally average values measured on the White wire if your selected meter doesn't do that for you.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2013, 03:41:42 PM by TwoTired »
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

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Re: 1976 750F SS...rectifiyer, regulator, both? solid state? Confused....
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2013, 01:14:30 PM »
TT Why the line through the title?

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 1976 750F SS...rectifiyer, regulator, both? solid state? Confused....
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2013, 03:42:02 PM »
TT Why the line through the title?
Oops
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.