Author Topic: Spark plug pics / glazing  (Read 3637 times)

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Offline Eddie

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Spark plug pics / glazing
« on: August 19, 2013, 08:15:48 AM »
These plugs look like they are wet but its a shiny glaze... thoughts? 75 CB550, Pamco ign. stock air box, stock coil.  Is this caused from all the additives in the gas we now get ?

Offline jpfrk2001

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Re: Spark plug pics / glazing
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2013, 08:17:51 AM »
Looks fine to me. Shows no evidence of running lean. And that's good.
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Offline Eddie

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Re: Spark plug pics / glazing
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2013, 08:22:06 AM »
after about 200 miles the plugs glaze up and it runs semi ruff,  clean the plugs up and it runs much better. Put in DR8ESL's in... 5ohm plugs and 5 ohm plugcaps.

Offline 2wheels

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Re: Spark plug pics / glazing
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2013, 09:52:27 AM »
Are you using oil?
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Offline Eddie

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Re: Spark plug pics / glazing
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2013, 11:06:17 AM »
No oil burning at all. even after 1500 miles it's very clean looking as well. they look wet but are not..

Offline 2wheels

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Re: Spark plug pics / glazing
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2013, 01:18:33 PM »
No oil burning at all. even after 1500 miles it's very clean looking as well. they look wet but are not..
Ok, well I'm out of my league all ready.   But I will ask this just so the smart members here will not have to assume.
What's the spark plug gap set at.  Have you verified the timing / advance with a timing light.
Good luck.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Spark plug pics / glazing
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2013, 01:26:37 PM »
Are you using a fuel additive?  If so, stop.

Looks like the plugs aren't getting hot enough to self clean.

Why aren't you using the recommended hotter plug D7EA (or DR7EA) for the Cb550?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline flybox1

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Re: Spark plug pics / glazing
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2013, 02:34:52 PM »
Why aren't you using the recommended hotter plug D7EA (or DR7EA) for the Cb550?
Looks like he is TT
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Spark plug pics / glazing
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2013, 03:07:33 PM »
Why aren't you using the recommended hotter plug D7EA (or DR7EA) for the Cb550?
Looks like he is TT
Really?  Then why did he say this?
... Put in DR8ESL's in... 5ohm plugs and 5 ohm plugcaps.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Eddie

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Re: Spark plug pics / glazing
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2013, 04:04:05 PM »
I switched out the D7's for the DR8ESL's as pre Hondamans recommendation, had them laying around thought I'd give them a try.  Timing is spot on, I try to not "lug" it by keeping the rpms up.  Not using any additive .  I think it actually runs better with the 7's....when they are clean.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Spark plug pics / glazing
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2013, 04:59:33 PM »
Spark plugs will self clean at the right combustion temps.  The porcelain needs to stay white for more distance from the center electrode than what the spark gap is.  The porcelain is an insulator, and if you cover it with conductive material, the spark travels the least difficult path to travel.  Carbon is a conductor.  In short, your plugs are fouled/fouling, due to an over rich mixture, which cools the combustion and leaves unburned hydrocarbons to deposit on the plugs.  Most likely, the rough running is an artifact of the fouling plugs.

Time to review the tune up check list, air filter restriction, carb settings, and carb cleanliness.  I'd also go back to the D7 heat range, unless you plan to spend most of your time at high power race settings and in hot weather where the engine cools less.

Describe what is your normal type/style of driving or operation of the vehicle?  Ever use full throttle?  What percentage of the time?
What is the history regarding the carbs?

As to what glazes them...  If it is just standard gas (ethanol blended?) that may be contributing to the cooler burn temps.    Maybe even some of the additives in your oil is depositing on the plug tips.  Perhaps intake valve seals are leaking.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline Eddie

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Re: Spark plug pics / glazing
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2013, 05:12:46 PM »
I drive it to work as much as possible... 8 miles each way. Carbs were rebuilt spring of 2012. timing is right on, air filter was changed at the same time. Only has 16k miles, I've only put on 2500. Very rarely have I gave it full throttle and run it up to 7k rpm, but dont really baby it..  I thought the ESL plugs were kind of a range between 7's and regular DR8EA's.  Guess I could try the DR7's since I have the 5k plug caps.  Great point on the carbon ... I work on electronics... power amps and such and have had to cut away burnt pc boards that were burnt..

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Spark plug pics / glazing
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2013, 05:56:17 PM »
Why resistor plugs AND caps?
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline Eddie

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Re: Spark plug pics / glazing
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2013, 06:18:35 PM »
need a total of 10k load..  orig plus were not resistor... caps were 10k.  cant find the angled caps in 10k any more, at least in NGK.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Spark plug pics / glazing
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2013, 06:48:27 PM »
Very rarely have I gave it full throttle and run it up to 7k rpm, but dont really baby it.. 
You know to me, this sounds like a contradiction.   

Anyway, 9K is red line, and after it is warmed up, I feel bad if haven't gotten up there during just about any ride.  It seems to really appreciate a good flogging.  ;D ;D
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 08:31:26 AM by TwoTired »
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline Eddie

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Re: Spark plug pics / glazing
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2013, 04:29:50 AM »
I think I may have taken it to 7k twice....buzzes my balls so bad it makes me afraid for that little motor.. Lol !

Offline evanphi

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Re: Spark plug pics / glazing
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2013, 05:43:40 AM »
I think I may have taken it to 7k twice....buzzes my balls so bad it makes me afraid for that little motor.. Lol !

Thats the best part about these old bikes! Get the revs high and BAM... instant sex-machine.
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Offline lucky

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Re: Spark plug pics / glazing
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2013, 07:50:31 AM »
Yeah......Sex machine!
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Offline flybox1

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Re: Spark plug pics / glazing
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2013, 08:00:58 AM »
Why aren't you using the recommended hotter plug D7EA (or DR7EA) for the Cb550?
Looks like he is TT
Really?  Then why did he say this?
... Put in DR8ESL's in... 5ohm plugs and 5 ohm plugcaps.
I was referring to the original plugs in the top photos.  those are/were the right plugs. ::) ;D
'78 750K (F3 engine) PD42b's, Modified airbox w/K&N  filter, 40/110 jets, 1 needle shim, IMS@ 1 turn out. Kerker + Cone 18" QuietCore

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Offline Duanob

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Re: Spark plug pics / glazing
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2013, 08:14:14 AM »
Very rarely have I gave it full throttle and run it up to 7k rpm, but dont really baby it.. 
You know to me, this sounds like a contradiction.   

Anyway, 9K is red line, and after it is warmed up, I feel bad if haven't gotten up there during just about any ride.  It seems to really appreciate a good fogging.  ;D ;D

TT I hope you meant FLOGGING?

7K RPMs is nothing. I try to reach that on my hiway rides and frankly I think I'm only doing 75 - 80. Around here you get passed a lot only doing 80. Or do some spirited take offs up to 8K+ every now and then. Anything to clean the carbon out of the cylinders, works wonders and the bike enjoys it as much as I do  ;D
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Spark plug pics / glazing
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2013, 09:12:34 AM »
I think I may have taken it to 7k twice....buzzes my balls so bad it makes me afraid for that little motor.. Lol !

Then you have a lousy seat.  (Or, perhaps a very enjoyable one!?)  I never thought of dragging my balls on the frame.  I suppose vicarious pleasures are where ever you find them.    ;D ;D
Still, most who ride the CB550 (or any SOHC4) remark about how smooth it is compared to other bikes.

The RPM thing is relative, to both size and design.  Big torquey motors usually turn lower RPM and don't last long at high RPM.  Never mind shaking the riders teeth out of the jaw.  (Or, joy to the nether region.)
Smaller motors turn higher.  The SOHC4 is naturally balanced by design.  I have 1 cylinder 4 cycle model airplane motors that IDLE at 2-3000, and do 12,000 @ cruise.  The 2 cycle motors turn about 5000 rpm higher.

The SOHC4 design allows operation at or near red line for routine bursts of power.  As with all engines, running at peak output constantly will mean lower rebuild intervals.  I have 47,000 miles on one of my CB550s.  And it's been routinely flogged for all of those miles.  When I was younger, I treated the throttle as though it were an on/off switch for anything other than steady cruise.  And, the trans was down shifted when the throttle was "on".  That tough little motor gets my earnest respect.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Spark plug pics / glazing
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2013, 12:09:31 PM »
Resistor plugs, resistor caps, colder plugs. WTF! Get rid of the resistor plugs if you are running resistor caps and use the '7' plugs. You gotta let it fire the plugs properly. It's like you are turning down the faucet but expecting to get a higher volume of water.
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Spark plug pics / glazing
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2013, 04:42:58 PM »
Resistor plugs, resistor caps, colder plugs. WTF! Get rid of the resistor plugs if you are running resistor caps and use the '7' plugs. You gotta let it fire the plugs properly. It's like you are turning down the faucet but expecting to get a higher volume of water.
Jerry,
The cap resistors for the CB550 are 10KΩ, for a coil secondary loop resistance of 20KΩ plus the coil resistance.    It works fine that way.  However, replacement 10KΩ caps are very hard to find.  5KΩ caps are widespread.  This would lower the loop resistance to 10KΩ, increasing the current draw from the coil and charging system, raise the coil heating for most 550s, and increase the spark plug electrode erosion.

Resistor spark plugs are easy to find, and have a 5KΩ resistor in them, restoring the stock coil's secondary loop added resistance to the original 20KΩ.

I do agree that colder plugs are misapplied here.

Either, the OP has a carb mixture issue, or he isn't letting the engine make the power (heat) needed to get the plugs to self clean.  Another possibility might be intake valve seals leaking.

But, I'm going with wrong plugs, too much choke operation, and with 8 mile runs, low combustion chamber heat.  I wouldn't be surprised if the OP also found the brown mayo around the oil dipstick.

I think the OP should announce what the pilot screw setting current is.




Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Eddie

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Re: Spark plug pics / glazing
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2013, 05:12:30 PM »
No "brown mayo" around dip stick. screws out 1.5 turns. Never have to use choke to start, just hold the throttle open a little after starting. There is no hesitation whether I give it a little gas or a bunch.  Guess I'll have to flog it a little harder...anyway, waiting for new plugs to arrive.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Spark plug pics / glazing
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2013, 06:05:03 PM »
screws out 1.5 turns. Never have to use choke to start, just hold the throttle open a little after starting. There is no hesitation whether I give it a little gas or a bunch. 

The bike's carbs are definitely set too rich then.  What's the outside air temp when starting?
Slow jet size?
Slide needle position?
Main jet size? (marked or actual?)
Emulsion tube bleed holes clear?
Air filter clean as new?
Filter box inlet clear?

Are the carb internal components aftermarket or factory original?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Spark plug pics / glazing
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2013, 07:31:37 PM »
Thanks for the 550 info TT. Don't I know about old charging system issues with my 3ohm coils, Dyna III, upgraded halogen headlight, old ignition switch, nasty connectors, etc!!
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline Eddie

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Re: Spark plug pics / glazing
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2013, 08:02:40 PM »
Answers below..
What's the outside air temp when starting?           avg summer in Ill. upper 60's[/b]
Slow jet size?                                they are stock honda jets that orig came with the bike
Slide needle position?                     dont know
Main jet size? (marked or actual?)                    stock orig as well
Emulsion tube bleed holes clear?                     very clear when rebuilt
Air filter clean as new?                          new last summer.
Filter box inlet clear?          very

Are the carb internal components aftermarket or factory original? bought factory orig

looks like I'll be taking the carbs off again ?

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Spark plug pics / glazing
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2013, 08:15:36 PM »
What are the chances that your replacement exhaust has more back pressure than the original 4 to 4?  Is the bike loud?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline Eddie

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Re: Spark plug pics / glazing
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2013, 04:47:21 AM »
it's not "Harley" loud but its not quiet, exhaust puffs out pretty good. It's got to be on the rich side.... float re-adjust? They are not the easiest to get perfect. Im a old motor head and have rebuilt many rochester & holly carbs, engines etc. but bikes are new to me. Looks like a little more finesse is needed and I should look a little deeper as I have no idea what the previous owner did to the bike. It really does seem to run good from off idle on up... just likes to glaze the plugs.
 Side note, last summer it was really hot here mid to upper 90's for what it seemed like weeks and they didnt glaze at all... I have thought about putting new 3ohm coils on as I have a Pamco unit installed. The original wires look to have been shortened a few times and when I put new caps on the inner insulation seems to be breaking down...getting to the point of getting gooey. I can still grab them and not get shocked though.... Old bikes...lots of fun fix one thing another pops up.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Spark plug pics / glazing
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2013, 09:15:43 AM »
it's not "Harley" loud but its not quiet, exhaust puffs out pretty good. It's got to be on the rich side.... float re-adjust?

High floats can cause a general richness.  Perhaps running a clear tube from the bowl drain hole up the side will tell you if the bowls are overfilling.  Normal level is 2-3 mm below the bowl to body interface.

They are not the easiest to get perfect.
True.   And they never will be.    It's the nature of air cooled motors that seldom run at optimum cylinder temps, and dumb, non-adaptive carbs.  Then there is the baro pressure and temp of the air, etc.  Air cooled motors often rely on fuel mixture cooling to gain longevity, as there is no massive radiator to accept and discard high heat spikes.

....but bikes are new to me. Looks like a little more finesse is needed ...
That's kind of the nature of smaller engines.   Small changes have big effects.  You want finicky?  Try fine tuning model airplane engines.  A spec in the fuel, or a nudge of the needle valve can make the difference from a carefree flight to an adrenaline rush body shaker, or even a demoralizing crash.

Side note, last summer it was really hot here mid to upper 90's for what it seemed like weeks and they didnt glaze at all...
That's kind of what I thought.  Air cooled engines run hotter in hot weather, as the air accepts less heat from the cooling fins.  Higher temps allow the plugs to self clean the insulator.  As an experiment, you could try D6EA spark plugs, if you want to avoid/postpone carb tuning.  That should raise the "average temp" in the combustion chamber, by shunting less heat to the cylinder head.

I have thought about putting new 3ohm coils on as I have a Pamco unit installed. The original wires look to have been shortened a few times and when I put new caps on the inner insulation seems to be breaking down...getting to the point of getting gooey.
I don't favor trying to correct mixture issues with spark intensity.
The gooey wire centers are an artifact of arcing between the wire conductor and the plug cap screw post.  You do need to get rid of the goo so the end cap can be solidly screwed into the wire end which prevents further arcing.
If the ignition leads get too short, NGK makes wire splicers.  It's not too hard to find copper stranded core wire.  Steel core is better for the cap's screw post grab longevity, but I didn't want to buy 50 ft of it, which was the minimum order.
http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/products/performance/splicers.asp
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Eddie

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Re: Spark plug pics / glazing
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2013, 09:34:15 AM »
Thank you TT for all the good advice, i'll try the 6's and post the findings.