Author Topic: Gasoline Question?  (Read 10022 times)

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Offline crazypj

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Re: Gasoline Question?
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2013, 07:14:06 PM »
Even at 2~300:1 adding oil will lean out mixture plus create more heat
 The intake valve stem is probably the only part that sees any benefit from 'lubrication'
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Offline oldschoolcarbs

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Re: Gasoline Question?
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2013, 09:27:48 PM »

Offline Gasturbine

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Re: Gasoline Question?
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2013, 07:00:15 AM »
You are wasting your money if you are using a premium fuel...period. Premium fuel is not refined (cleaner/better) than regular fuel, it just has a higher octane to burn slower. It only purpose id to prevent detonation in high compression engines, AND, add the ability to get more timing on said engines for better performance. It will have NO EFFECT in the performance of your stock SOHC/4.

Ethanol is in all grades of gasoline, and has little effect on parts. I suppose after 100-300k miles, you might be able to detect some sort etching that *could* be associated to methanol, but thats about it.

Use regular fuel.

Offline 70CB750

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Re: Gasoline Question?
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2013, 07:07:47 AM »
Ethanol swallows and damages rubber seals. Period.
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Offline KJ790

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Re: Gasoline Question?
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2013, 07:57:09 AM »
There is so much misinformation in this thread it is not even funny. Richening the air/fuel ratio will not produce more power unless your bike is lean to begin with. If your bike is jetted correctly and you richen the fuel mixture, you will lose power. Octane rating of a fuel tells you very little about the fuel itself or how it will perform. All it tells you is the fuel's ability to resist detonation. This is completely different from the rate of combustion. Just because a fuel is higher octane does not mean it will burn slower, and it does not mean it will burn faster either. It also does not mean that an engine will make more or less power (unless you are losing power on a low octane fuel due to extreme detonation). These characteristics are dependent on other variables that few people ever bother to look at.

Fuel characteristics vary from one station to another, so it is hard to say a blanket statement like "your bike will run best with (insert octane rating) fuel." Assume your bike does not detonate with 87 octane. You may find that 93 octane from one station will make your bike run better than the 87 octane from that station. You may also find that 87 from another station will run even better than the 93 sold at the first station. It all comes down to the blend of the fuel, not the octane rating.
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Offline Gasturbine

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Re: Gasoline Question?
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2013, 08:16:17 AM »
There is so much misinformation in this thread it is not even funny.

Tell me about it.  ::)

Quote
Just because a fuel is higher octane does not mean it will burn slower...

Um, actually, it does. Do you know what detonation is, and its cause?

Heres is a PDF. Check out the FACTS of octane (specifically, bullets 2 & 3) and the subsequent Myths.

http://mn.gov/commerce/weights-and-measures/images/OctaneFacts.pdf

Yes, its from the Minnesota Commerce division, but it is factual and accurate.

Quote
You may find that 93 octane from one station will make your bike run better than the 87 octane from that station. You may also find that 87 from another station will run even better than the 93 sold at the first station. It all comes down to the blend of the fuel, not the octane rating.

Not likely. aside from the two major blends (winter and summer) there are about 16 over varying blends out there to overlap state and federal requirements, but those blend changes are so subtle, you certainly wont feel it in the seat of your pants. In fact, odds are your Shell station on one side of town, is getting the same gas from that a BP station is on the other side of town...both trucks fill up from the same refinery/distribution point.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 08:29:56 AM by Gasturbine »

Offline oldschoolcarbs

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Re: Gasoline Question?
« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2013, 08:50:46 AM »
There is so much misinformation in this thread it is not even funny. Richening the air/fuel ratio will not produce more power unless your bike is lean to begin with. If your bike is jetted correctly and you richen the fuel mixture, you will lose power. Octane rating of a fuel tells you very little about the fuel itself or how it will perform. All it tells you is the fuel's ability to resist detonation. This is completely different from the rate of combustion. Just because a fuel is higher octane does not mean it will burn slower, and it does not mean it will burn faster either. It also does not mean that an engine will make more or less power (unless you are losing power on a low octane fuel due to extreme detonation). These characteristics are dependent on other variables that few people ever bother to look at.

Fuel characteristics vary from one station to another, so it is hard to say a blanket statement like "your bike will run best with (insert octane rating) fuel." Assume your bike does not detonate with 87 octane. You may find that 93 octane from one station will make your bike run better than the 87 octane from that station. You may also find that 87 from another station will run even better than the 93 sold at the first station. It all comes down to the blend of the fuel, not the octane rating.

+

Speaking of variable components in fuel... this is an excerpt from Tesoro's MSDS.
20% Butane, aka lighter/coleman stove fuel?? Yes you read that right.

The vapor pressure is a nightmare for carburetted engines and because on any given day they can mix to all extremes in the recipe there's no way to predict how it's going to behave.

In addition to what Nila talks about regarding gross precipitation in ambient state, phase separation also occurs at the molecular level inside the combustion chamber. Under extreme heat and pressure you get a superheated steam component.

If anyone thinks that this is a good thing...

OSC

TSO (Tesoro) Refinery MSDS

SECTION 3. COMPOSITION/INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS

Component    Weight %

Gasoline, natural;
(LBP naphtha) 10 - 30%
Toluene 10 - 30%
Xylene 10 - 30%
Ethanol; ethyl alcohol 10%
Trimethylbenzene 1 - 5%
Isopentane; 2-methylbutane 1 - 5%
Naphthalene 1 - 5%
Benzene 0.1 - 4.7%
Pentane 1 - 5%
Cyclohexane 1 - 5%
Ethylbenzene    1 - 5%
Butane 1 - 20%
Heptane [and isomers] 0.5 - 0.75%
N-hexane 0.5 - 0.75%

Offline acollin

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Re: Gasoline Question?
« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2013, 09:04:30 AM »
Time to bury this line.  There is never going to be agreement .

I believe ( call me crazy) that the non ethanol---higher octane fuel that I put in my 1974 cb750 provides a better throttle response than running ethanol fuel. I also believe the people who tell me its not good for my bike, lawn mower, generator, chain saw, etc to run the ethanol based fuel. I have collected personal albeit sketchy evidence for my belief. I certainly  am not going to argue the science with anyone, but I know what I feel.

While I have read and heard all sorts of positions , I have not heard any tell me that non ethanol fuel will harm my bike or cause poor performance. I would recommend to anyone, if the opportunity presents itself, you have nothing to lose by giving non ethanol a try.

Be well all


Offline Lostboy Steve

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Re: Gasoline Question?
« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2013, 09:35:25 AM »
I have run 112 octane race fuel in my 550 and my buell and even a small goped. Other than the smell there was no difference in performance.
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Offline KJ790

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Re: Gasoline Question?
« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2013, 10:20:47 AM »
There is so much misinformation in this thread it is not even funny.

Tell me about it.  ::)

Quote
Just because a fuel is higher octane does not mean it will burn slower...

Um, actually, it does. Do you know what detonation is, and its cause?

Heres is a PDF. Check out the FACTS of octane (specifically, bullets 2 & 3) and the subsequent Myths.

http://mn.gov/commerce/weights-and-measures/images/OctaneFacts.pdf

Yes, its from the Minnesota Commerce division, but it is factual and accurate.

Quote
You may find that 93 octane from one station will make your bike run better than the 87 octane from that station. You may also find that 87 from another station will run even better than the 93 sold at the first station. It all comes down to the blend of the fuel, not the octane rating.

Not likely. aside from the two major blends (winter and summer) there are about 16 over varying blends out there to overlap state and federal requirements, but those blend changes are so subtle, you certainly wont feel it in the seat of your pants. In fact, odds are your Shell station on one side of town, is getting the same gas from that a BP station is on the other side of town...both trucks fill up from the same refinery/distribution point.

Let's go straight to a fuel manufacturer:

http://www.rockettbrand.com/techsupport/documents/TechBulletins/FlameSpeedOctaneAndHpRelationships.pdf

Yes, I know what detonation is, it is auto-ignition of the fuel without a spark present. This has nothing to do with the flame front speed or the burn rate of the fuel.

Try doing a little dyno testing with a few different fuels, you will be shocked by what you find. Take it to the extremes. Run some 87 octane pump gas. Then run some VP113 (113 MON+RON/2 octane rating) and you will typically see about a 3-4% hp increase. Then run some VP MR-Pro6 (95 MON+RON/2 octane rating) and you will typically see 6-7% hp increase over pump fuel. Then run some Sunoco 260GT (100 MON+RON/2 octane rating) and you will see little if any hp gains (typically about 1%) over most pump fuels. It becomes pretty clear that octane rating is not directly related to the performance output of the fuel.

When I am picking out a fuel for a specific race engine I pay little attention to the octane rating. I just make sure that it meets the minimum octane I need to prevent detonation. To pick out an appropriate fuel for an engine's performance you need to focus on things other than octane rating, such as the distillation rate and the reid vapor pressure. These will tell you more about a fuel's performance than the octane rating will.
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Offline Gasturbine

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Re: Gasoline Question?
« Reply #35 on: August 23, 2013, 10:33:15 AM »
I believe ( call me crazy) that the non ethanol---higher octane fuel that I put in my 1974 cb750 provides a better throttle response than running ethanol fuel.

Are you saying the premium you run has no ethanol in it, but the "regular" does?? How are you coming to the conclusion that your "premium" fuel has no ethanol??

"Crazy" isnt the word I would use. Ignorant comes to mind, but not crazy.

Offline Gasturbine

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Re: Gasoline Question?
« Reply #36 on: August 23, 2013, 10:45:27 AM »
Try doing a little dyno testing with a few different fuels, you will be shocked by what you find. Take it to the extremes. Run some 87 octane pump gas. Then run some VP113 (113 MON+RON/2 octane rating) and you will typically see about a 3-4% hp increase. Then run some VP MR-Pro6 (95 MON+RON/2 octane rating) and you will typically see 6-7% hp increase over pump fuel.

not without timing changes you wont.

Quote
Then run some Sunoco 260GT (100 MON+RON/2 octane rating) and you will see little if any hp gains (typically about 1%) over most pump fuels. It becomes pretty clear that octane rating is not directly related to the performance output of the fuel.

Um, first you say it does make a difference, now you say it doesnt.  ::)

Quote
When I am picking out a fuel for a specific race engine I pay little attention to the octane rating. I just make sure that it meets the minimum octane I need to prevent detonation. To pick out an appropriate fuel for an engine's performance you need to focus on things other than octane rating, such as the distillation rate and the reid vapor pressure. These will tell you more about a fuel's performance than the octane rating will.

And we are not talking race engines here. We are talking about (in most cases) 25 year old bike engines with a comp ratio of 9:1 or even less. Lets keep apples to apples here please.

Offline Schnell

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Re: Gasoline Question?
« Reply #37 on: August 23, 2013, 10:50:42 AM »
In Ontario, Canada, at the gas pumps I frequent, usually Shell or Esso, the pump info states that the lower gas grades contain up to 10 percent ethanol, while the highest grade does not.

My small town mechanic and gas station owner strongly recommends high octane gas for small engines (lawnmower, snowblower). He explained to me that lower grades have ethanol which is bad for rubber carb bits, and that the highest grade does not contain added ethanol.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 10:56:20 AM by Schnell »
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project: 1974 Honda CB450

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1981 Suzuki GS650
1973 Honda CD175

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Offline KJ790

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Re: Gasoline Question?
« Reply #38 on: August 23, 2013, 10:51:21 AM »
Try doing a little dyno testing with a few different fuels, you will be shocked by what you find. Take it to the extremes. Run some 87 octane pump gas. Then run some VP113 (113 MON+RON/2 octane rating) and you will typically see about a 3-4% hp increase. Then run some VP MR-Pro6 (95 MON+RON/2 octane rating) and you will typically see 6-7% hp increase over pump fuel.

not without timing changes you wont.

Quote
Then run some Sunoco 260GT (100 MON+RON/2 octane rating) and you will see little if any hp gains (typically about 1%) over most pump fuels. It becomes pretty clear that octane rating is not directly related to the performance output of the fuel.

Um, first you say it does make a difference, now you say it doesnt.  ::)

Quote
When I am picking out a fuel for a specific race engine I pay little attention to the octane rating. I just make sure that it meets the minimum octane I need to prevent detonation. To pick out an appropriate fuel for an engine's performance you need to focus on things other than octane rating, such as the distillation rate and the reid vapor pressure. These will tell you more about a fuel's performance than the octane rating will.

And we are not talking race engines here. We are talking about (in most cases) 25 year old bike engines with a comp ratio of 9:1 or even less. Lets keep apples to apples here please.

These fuels will yield approximately these power gains on stock CB750 engines on a dyno without any timing changes. It's the chemistry of the fuel. Now you can make timing and compression changes to yield even better gains with some of the fuels, but leaving the engine alone you will see around those gains for each of those fuels. I at no time said that the octane rating afffected the performance. I was demonstrating how octane rating does not reflect power gains from a fuel.
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Offline crazypj

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Re: Gasoline Question?
« Reply #39 on: August 23, 2013, 10:58:31 AM »
I add 1~1.5%% acetone and get noticeable performance increase  8)
Noticeable performance changes are usually assumed to be around 10% 'seat of pants'
As there seems to be a few fuel engineers/chemists, could you explain the reason for me?
As for the other post,
If your seeing a performance increase with higher octane fuel, the octane you were using previously is obviously too low (assuming no modifications to timing or jetting
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 11:03:01 AM by crazypj »
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Gasoline Question?
« Reply #40 on: August 23, 2013, 11:00:45 AM »
See reply #1.
Testimonials mean squat.  There is nothing to back them except "feelings".
"Feelings are best understood as a subjective representation of emotions, private to the individual experiencing them."
Being an individual phenomena, they aren't transferable to another individual and certainly not to masses of individuals.

Add to that, people lie and mislead.  Actual physics and science do not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating

There is so much misinformation in this thread it is not even funny.

Tell me about it.  ::)

Quote
Just because a fuel is higher octane does not mean it will burn slower...

Um, actually, it does. Do you know what detonation is, and its cause?

Heres is a PDF. Check out the FACTS of octane (specifically, bullets 2 & 3) and the subsequent Myths.

http://mn.gov/commerce/weights-and-measures/images/OctaneFacts.pdf
No. The Minnesota writers are not scientists (or not qualified to be one) and are adding to the misinformation.  Though they may have directed the statements to an undereducated audience, they got that one "fact" wrong.

Detonation and burn rates are two different properties.
What you want is to ignite the fuel at one location and have a flame front spread to involve the entire air fuel (a/f) mixture.  Detonation ignites the entire a/f mixture at once.  You get a high pressure explosion, instead of a lower pressure wave push on the piston.  An octane rating is there to serve but one purpose, that of preventing detonation.  Burn rates are NOT germain to the rating system.  However, the ignition conditions are.  And these are two different properties of a combustible material.

Imagine a forest fire. They generally begin at one point, the ignition point, and then spread to consume avail able fuel drawing oxygen from the atmosphere and sustain itself with the heat of that combustion.  Remove heat or oxygen and the fuel ceases to burn.  However, all that fuel with ignite at once if the temperature is raised to a high enough level.  And it will all burn at once in one big flash.  (Best to observe this from space.  As most life would be well roasted at this ignition temperature.)

Moving on...

Do you favor paying more for the same energy?
There is little difference in energy content of regular versus premium gasoline. They both contain about 111,400 British Thermal Units of energy per gallon.  The only way to convert more of that energy into forward motion in to make the conversion device (engine) more efficient.  It is only the engine specifics that may require premium fuel to allow an increase in conversion efficiency (or allow more conversion mass/volume within a set amount of time).

Did you know you are often paying more for less energy?
As both gasohol and ethanol have far lower energy densities than gasoline, they will accomplish less work per unit of volume. In fact, a car burning one unit of ethanol will only travel 70% as far as the same vehicle burning the same volume of gasoline.

At least the government allows consumers the choice.  Oh wait, they don't.  But, they still collect tax per unit of volume, not the actual energy content of the mandated fuel.  Can you imagine why they favor ethanol blends, and wish to increase the ethanol content?  Hey it's a win-win for both gas companies AND government budget considerations!  Who wouldn't like to collect an extra dollar from every consumer on the planet?
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Gasoline Question?
« Reply #41 on: August 23, 2013, 11:01:29 AM »
I add 1%acetone and get noticeable performance increase
How was that measured?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline crazypj

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Re: Gasoline Question?
« Reply #42 on: August 23, 2013, 11:06:54 AM »
1~1.5% per gallon
As tank isn't very big it's only around 2 fl oz.
I edited post as 'quick reply' didn't give me emoticons  ;D
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Gasoline Question?
« Reply #43 on: August 23, 2013, 11:48:21 AM »
I add 1%acetone and get noticeable performance increase
How was that measured?

Not the Snopes is the be all end all anymore than Wikipedia, but you might want to do more research/

http://www.snopes.com/autos/techno/acetone.asp
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Gasoline Question?
« Reply #44 on: August 23, 2013, 12:00:27 PM »
Snopes is owned by Soros and there were cases when the truth was bit adjusted to match his political views.
Prokop
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I love it when parts come together.

Dorothy - my CB750
CB750K3F - The Red
Sidecar


CB900C

2006 KLR650

Offline Lostboy Steve

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Re: Gasoline Question?
« Reply #45 on: August 23, 2013, 12:08:57 PM »
When the #$%* did snopes become the "truth" about anything, I swear everyday I hear "Snopes says this", #$%* Snopes. I MEAN REALLY? SNOPES WILL NOW SHOW US THE LIGHT AS TO WHICH GAS IS GOOD? How about people just run whatever they like and shut the #$%* up about it? Who the #$%* cares. Here in NJ you're getting 10% ethanol in everything except race fuel and even then who knows what the tank they're pumping it out of contains. The opinionated are so freaking opinionated. From now on I'm going to run turpentine with a hint of wintergreen (for flavour of course).  8) That being said, I have used xylene in my truck to get a noticeable increase in fuel mileage but I didn't notice any power difference.
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Offline ofreen

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Re: Gasoline Question?
« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2013, 05:44:30 PM »
When the #$%* did snopes become the "truth" about anything, I swear everyday I hear "Snopes says this", #$%* Snopes. I MEAN REALLY? SNOPES WILL NOW SHOW US THE LIGHT AS TO WHICH GAS IS GOOD? How about people just run whatever they like and shut the #$%* up about it? Who the #$%* cares.

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Offline Lostboy Steve

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Re: Gasoline Question?
« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2013, 06:44:06 PM »
Thanks for that. That's exactly right!
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Offline ofreen

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Re: Gasoline Question?
« Reply #48 on: August 25, 2013, 07:48:51 PM »
 ;D
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Offline crazypj

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Re: Gasoline Question?
« Reply #49 on: August 25, 2013, 09:15:40 PM »
I add 1%acetone and get noticeable performance increase
How was that measured?

Not the Snopes is the be all end all anymore than Wikipedia, but you might want to do more research/

http://www.snopes.com/autos/techno/acetone.asp

Never said increase in gas mileage but noticeable increase in performance
I have no idea why and would like to know
I fake being smart pretty good
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