Author Topic: generalized coil question  (Read 1887 times)

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Offline faux fiddy

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generalized coil question
« on: August 20, 2013, 09:49:34 PM »
Generally, I have a points bike that has 40 yo original and series of  other bike's originals 40yo OEM. I can't even ask what they cost at Honda if they had them, so I want to know if coils from a cdi bike would work from a points timed system.


Now specifically, bike is Honda CL 450 with the points, and I can get these v 250 virago coils for $17.  I'm pretty sure I read they have the same 80mm mounting centers and similar configuration of tabs and spark wire.

I have looked and not found definitive threads as to where any points  coil swaps work, or the actual construction  differences in cdi vs. points coils.  I know people set up cdi pickups.

Some aftermarket even  say 6 or 12v / points or cdi, but don't mount as well.

What say you?




http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Virago-XV-250-XV125-ignition-coil-of-motorcycle-parts/728325257.html
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 09:51:06 PM by faux fiddy »
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: generalized coil question
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2013, 10:20:55 PM »
You need to know what the stock coils measure for ohms on the primary.  CDI coils can have very low primary resistance.  I wouldn't want to run a points system with a coil primary lower than 3 ohm, and even that will tend to use up points quicker than say a 5 ohm primary coil would.

Ohm's law I = E/R   Watts law  P =IxE.
I = Amps
E = Volts
R = resistance
P = power

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Offline faux fiddy

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Re: generalized coil question
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2013, 10:38:39 PM »
Not to  complicate matters, but how do the resistor caps figure in?

I've  been perusing and found similar configurations as low as six bucks, but no specifics as to mounting centers or resistance, some have actual applications.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: generalized coil question
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2013, 10:43:14 PM »
Coils have a primary and a secondary winding.  The points or CDI pulse is applied to the primary.

Resistor caps are in the coil secondary circuit.  Secondary resistance helps broaden the spark event, reduce spark plug erosion, and reduce coil heating.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline faux fiddy

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Re: generalized coil question
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2013, 11:07:38 PM »
Here's a coil for a gs 125 rated at 6.5 ohms primary resistance, I've seen others with less.  Would a bit more than 5 ohm be better?

I sure do like the 80mm mounting centers  and under $20 to make things easier.
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<'  '  '   '  o .  . . . . . . .................(
 ' VVVVV'   ')))))____>-''''''''''''''''''\  l
' . vvvv_   -              -                 \/

Offline TwoTired

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Re: generalized coil question
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2013, 11:23:15 PM »
Here's a coil for a gs 125 rated at 6.5 ohms primary resistance, I've seen others with less.  Would a bit more than 5 ohm be better?

It will consume less power than a coil with a 5 ohm primary.   But, I don't know what the bike originally had.

Further, coils have a turns ratio.  The resistance of either the primary or secondary is an artifact of the length and size of wire used in each half.  You really can't specify one with out the other, or without considering the circuit it is to be placed in.

Does the GS125 circuit look similar to what your 450 has?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline faux fiddy

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Re: generalized coil question
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2013, 11:25:41 PM »
I forgot to paste the link but I think they showed it with a cdi ignition, and two  inputs.
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' . vvvv_   -              -                 \/

Offline tbpmusic

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Re: generalized coil question
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2013, 05:16:46 AM »
In general, cdi coils are not appropriate for a 450.
Not to worry though, there are plenty of aftermarket coils that work fine.
A lot of 450 guys use coils from Mike's XS Shop.
They're cheap, an easy retrofit, work great.
Don't forget new wires and (non-resistor) plug caps..........

But I've even seen cheepo JC Whitney coils used (though they're sort of large.

At any rate, with luck  HondaMan (Mark) might see this and enlighten us all on the subject.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 06:42:45 AM by tbpmusic »
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Offline Xnavylfr

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Re: generalized coil question
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2013, 07:18:28 AM »
A lot of us CHOPPER riders swap out the stock coils, running points and use the coils from 79 and newer DOHC CBs or Goldwing coils. This gives us the capability to change the wires and still run points. The BIG factor is the resistance of the coil, you don't want LESS than original.


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« Last Edit: August 25, 2013, 06:45:25 AM by Xnavylfr »

Offline 2wheels

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Re: generalized coil question
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2013, 06:10:39 AM »
The CDI systems I have seen have very different coils then our 12 volts points system.

CDI generate a primaray coil voltage of about 300 volts, which is not going to work with our 12 volt primary.
Unless of course you remove the points and install a stator coil in there
« Last Edit: August 24, 2013, 06:24:11 AM by 2wheels »
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Offline Xnavylfr

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Re: generalized coil question
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2013, 06:36:36 AM »
I have many coils from newer bikes on my CB750s without a problem!

http://s465.photobucket.com/user/Xnavylfr/media/000_0004.jpg.html?sort=3&postlogin=true

The coils shown here are from a 80 model DOHC Honda with CDI ignition on a CB750 with POINTS ignition. NOT a problem. You can see , that the wires are replaceable and how they connect to the coils.

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« Last Edit: August 25, 2013, 06:39:23 AM by Xnavylfr »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: generalized coil question
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2013, 11:05:05 AM »
Probably some confusion about terms in this thread, as well as how ignition systems work in general.

Points:
Contact point switch 12v power to the coils to store energy, and when the contacts open, the energy stored in the coils, creates spark.

Transistor ignition:
The switching function of points can be replaced with an electronic or transistor type switch.  These switch the same 12v power to coils, which operates in very much the same way as they did with points.  The coil drive transistor can then be operated by a hall effect device, reluctor, or optical switch to control the transistor in time with the crankshaft position.

CDI is a specific type.  Capacitor Discharge Ignition  It generally uses a circuit to step up the 12 v fed it, to store a 250-400V charge in a capacitor.  The energy in this system is not stored in the coil to create spark.  Instead the coil simply steps up the voltage it is fed as a simple multiplier device.  (Technically, this is more aptly termed a pulse transformer, whereas the points and transistor coils are more properly termed storage inductors.


Coil details:
The traditional storage inductor coil amplifies the 12V to a spark inducing voltage, by means of a turns ratio.  In simplified terms, if there were 100 turns, wraps, or coils of wire on the primary and 100,000 turns on the secondary, this would be a ratio of 1000 to 1.  Such a coil/transformer would convert 12V to 12,000V during operation.

For discussion sake, let's say that the goal was to produce 12,000V at the spark gaps. A CDI driving a pulse coil with 300V, would only require a coil turns ratio of 40:1.
Using such a CDI pulse coil with a 12V drive type (points or transistor) would only produce 480V, which is very unlikely to produce spark across a .050" gap.

Oddly, using a storage inductor coil (rather than the pulse transformer) is possible with CDI drive unit.  Although the coil construction specifics do interfere with ideal operation, stepping up the 300V at the turns ratio used by the 12v drive system, does produce a rather impressive spark voltage at the spark plugs.


I have many coils from newer bikes on my CB750s without a problem!
Much depends on what is or is not encompassed by "problem".
Many of the transistor type systems use coils of lower primary resistance than do points systems.  The lower resistance trades coil primary current, for a higher turns ratio, leading to a higher spark voltage potential.  (This voltage "potential" is not guaranteed by the coil, however.  It is only available if demanded by the ignition system; more later.)
The transistors used are chosen to survive the current demanded by the coil specified for the system.  A points contact set switching higher current will heat more and deform its contacts at a faster rate than with the lower ohm coils they were designed to power and control.  The lower the coil primary resistance, the faster the points will deteriorate.  This is not a "problem" for those seeing the engine run initially.  But, IS a problem for those wishing to operate points without replacement for the longest possible time.

Voltage potential:
For point and transistor systems, the spark energy is stored in the coil until the coil is "fired".  The "firing" is actually the collapse of the electromagnetic field that the coil has stored.  The coil output voltage rises as the field collapses until the voltage is sufficient to jump the gap at both spark plugs (SOHC4).  This is when current begins to flow, and the current drain prevents further voltage increases.  So, it is said that in this system, the GAP determines the voltage developed in the ignition system.  Therefore, a coil that is capable of producing 50000 volts, with only produce whatever the gap demands.  If that is 9000 Volts, that is all a "50,000" volt coil will produce in actual operation.  However, because the GAP determines voltage developed, making the spark gap larger, raises the voltage development.  A 50,000 volt coil will only make that rated voltage if the spark gaps are widened (or combustion conditions altered) to require it.



Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline Xnavylfr

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Re: generalized coil question
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2013, 11:55:36 AM »
Thanks for the info TT!  I would guess the DOHC system is transistorized then.

Problems= No burnt points or coils!


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