Author Topic: Should I make this trade?  (Read 4483 times)

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Offline THE BIG SITT

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Should I make this trade?
« on: August 27, 2013, 03:46:14 AM »
Hello all, new to the site here, but if all goes well, I should stick around for a while. I'm in talks with a gentleman about trading my 2008 Ninja 250 for his 1978 CB750. My bike has about 11K miles and some track oriented mods, although its a street bike. I would value it at $2750-$3000. Here is the listing for his bike:

http://indianapolis.craigslist.org/mcy/4013007229.html

I occasionally commute (30 minutes), but most of the time the bike is ridden in 15 minute stints from here to there on nice nights. I have some basic mechanical knowledge, the most extensive being jetting the carbs on the Ninja (over and over again), so general maintenance isn't a huge deal. I want a bike that has that "cool" factor, and can get me there a little quicker, and sound good doing it. A CB750 cafe seems like it would do the trick.

So, what do you say? A fair trade, or lopsided in one direction? Thanks for the help!

Offline andy750

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Re: Should I make this trade?
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2013, 03:51:58 AM »
Id trade. Looks like a deal to me.
Current bikes
1. CB750K4: Long distance bike, 17 countries and counting...2001 - Trans-USA-Mexico, 2003 - European Tour, 2004 - SOHC Easy Rider Trip , 2008 - Adirondack Tour 2-up , 2013 - Tail of the Dragon Tour , 2017: 836 kit install and bottom end rebuild. And rebirth: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173213.msg2029836.html#msg2029836
2. CB750/810cc K2  - road racer with JMR worked head 71 hp
3. Yamaha Tenere T700 2022

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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Should I make this trade?
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2013, 04:07:29 AM »
Yes, looks like a deal.
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Offline chewbacca5000

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Re: Should I make this trade?
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2013, 05:12:35 AM »
Ride before you decide.  If he declines I would also decline the trade.  Good luck with the deal.

Offline THE BIG SITT

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Re: Should I make this trade?
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2013, 05:48:52 AM »
Do you guys have any buying guides I should look at. I've only bought one other bike, and it had 8000 miles.

Offline Xnavylfr

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Re: Should I make this trade?
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2013, 07:38:31 AM »
Ride before you decide.  If he declines I would also decline the trade.  Good luck with the deal.

I'd do the same! you ride the 750 and have him ride your 250 behind you, if he declines or has some issues with you riding it,then there could be problems he don't want to reveal!!!

Xnavylfr(CHUCK)

Offline Bankerdanny

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Re: Should I make this trade?
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2013, 07:45:18 AM »
Ride before you decide.  If he declines I would also decline the trade.  Good luck with the deal.

My thought too. On it's face this sounds like a great trade and the bike looks like it was thoughtfully updated.

But the 77-78 750K's used different carbs than the 76 and earlier ones, and because of that parts can be harder to find, particularly carb parts.

You want to ride the bike and make sure the engine is completely cold when you start it so you can go from cold to fully warmed up and make sure there are no flat spots or idle issues at any point.

If the fueling seems right then I would absolutely go for it. That bike would be a great every day rider and not embarrass itself on a curvy road either.
"The problem with quotes on the Internet is that you never know if they're true" - Abraham Lincoln

Current: '76 CB750F. Previous:  '75 CB550F, 2007 Yamaha Vino 125 Scooter, '75 Harley FXE Superglide, '77 GL1000, '77 CB550k, '68 Suzuki K10 80, '68 Yamaha YR2, '69 BMW R69S, '71 Honda SL175, '02 Royal Enfield Bullet 500, '89 Yamaha FJ1200

Offline 750K

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Re: Should I make this trade?
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2013, 07:57:04 AM »
Ride before you decide.  If he declines I would also decline the trade.  Good luck with the deal.

But the 77-78 750K's used different carbs than the 76 and earlier ones, and because of that parts can be harder to find, particularly carb parts.

You want to ride the bike and make sure the engine is completely cold when you start it so you can go from cold to fully warmed up and make sure there are no flat spots or idle issues at any point.

+1 on starting it cold and seeing how it warms up, the 77-78 pd carbs have an accelerator pump as well as a fast idle cam to help with cold starts. With the choke pulled out the fast idle cam should put the idle between 2500-3000rpms at idle when cold.

Aside from carb rubbers I've never had a hard time finding either rebuild kits or press slow jets and I've found good used carb boots locally a couple times now.
77 Cb750, 78 Kz1000

Offline ekpent

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Re: Should I make this trade?
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2013, 08:07:25 AM »
Do you like to and enjoy and have the tools and knowledge to work on old bikes. Because of their age there can be issues that require attention and shops are expensive if they will even work on it.Hopefully that one has been refreshed well.Sure the little Ninja is pretty trouble free except for jetting I quess. There are a lot of old Honda's out there to make your own if you want a custom and keep the commuter bike . Just sayin'
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 08:28:14 AM by ekpent »

Offline Powderman

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Re: Should I make this trade?
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2013, 08:20:00 AM »
The trade would be up to the seller and you might be in luck as he wants to start racing and the Ninja 250 might be a good start for him.

Offline THE BIG SITT

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Re: Should I make this trade?
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2013, 10:20:32 AM »
How could I manage a cold start if we are meeting at a neutral location?


Ride before you decide.  If he declines I would also decline the trade.  Good luck with the deal.

My thought too. On it's face this sounds like a great trade and the bike looks like it was thoughtfully updated.

But the 77-78 750K's used different carbs than the 76 and earlier ones, and because of that parts can be harder to find, particularly carb parts.

You want to ride the bike and make sure the engine is completely cold when you start it so you can go from cold to fully warmed up and make sure there are no flat spots or idle issues at any point.

If the fueling seems right then I would absolutely go for it. That bike would be a great every day rider and not embarrass itself on a curvy road either.

If the parts for the '78 carbs prove to be unfindable, can you just replace the entire carb with one from another model year?

Do you like to and enjoy and have the tools and knowledge to work on old bikes. Because of their age there can be issues that require attention and shops are expensive if they will even work on it.Hopefully that one has been refreshed well.Sure the little Ninja is pretty trouble free except for jetting I quess. There are a lot of old Honda's out there to make your own if you want a custom and keep the commuter bike . Just sayin'

On a 1-10 scale, my mechanical skills are probably about a 7. I feel comfortable with any bolt on mods, most basic maintenance, carburetor work (although it isn't my favorite task), ect. I had the Ninja down to just a frame with wheels and a motor, and managed to get it all back together and running. With that being said, I wouldn't want to do any engine work without someone there guiding me.

Offline 70CB750

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Re: Should I make this trade?
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2013, 10:29:11 AM »
I think you will be fine, it may take a bit of time to get her to be 100% reliable, but these bikes are built like that - i.e. they are originally built to be 100% reliable.

I can kick tires on my K0, that looks like crap, btw, and head out on a trip 600 miles long and be confident I will get back just fine.
Prokop
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I love it when parts come together.

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CB750K3F - The Red
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Offline Geeto67

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Re: Should I make this trade?
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2013, 11:14:23 AM »
Pass. In fact run the opposite direction. Your ninja is worth more. While I see a lot of pretty paint, I see a lot of cheap crappy parts and decisions that indicate the builder isn't the most bike saavy person on the planet (anybody who uses those emgo pods is not just a fool but doesn't understand the value of well made parts).

I see a bike that for it to be good for me I would want to spend $1000 on real bars (tomaselli condors), rearsets (make my own), a real filtering system (cycle ex, k&N, etc), cartridge emulators and springs for the forks, an inch taller shocks in the rear (hagons), and alloy rims (DID take offs from a Hondamatic). Call me crazy but I actually like my bikes to work like they look, not just have curb appeal.

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Offline Bankerdanny

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Re: Should I make this trade?
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2013, 11:36:09 AM »
Big, if you are meeting at a neutral location then the cold start is out. But if it runs and idles solid when fully warmed up then it is likely that you will be ok when cold.

Gee:I don't know that the Ninja is worth more, but I can say for certain that 2 or 3 years from now, that 750, if well maintained will have lost zero value, something you can't say about the Ninja. Also, not a single one of those parts you mention is required to have a very well functioning bike, particularly the Tomasellis, which are nice bars to be sure, but in no way do you need to spend $167 on adjustable clubmans in order to have a functional cafe.
"The problem with quotes on the Internet is that you never know if they're true" - Abraham Lincoln

Current: '76 CB750F. Previous:  '75 CB550F, 2007 Yamaha Vino 125 Scooter, '75 Harley FXE Superglide, '77 GL1000, '77 CB550k, '68 Suzuki K10 80, '68 Yamaha YR2, '69 BMW R69S, '71 Honda SL175, '02 Royal Enfield Bullet 500, '89 Yamaha FJ1200

Offline Geeto67

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Re: Should I make this trade?
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2013, 11:43:16 AM »
Have you charted the price of ninja 250s lately? If they run, look pretty, and haven't been crashed they tend to hit $2K and just stay there. maybe $1700 if it is an 80's model. It will still go down but the plucky little ninja holds value incredibly well.

I mentioned the parts I like to use on my bikes, and the parts that I woulkd EXPECT at $3K price tag. If it had a superbike bar I would give it a pass. I tend to regard anybody who uses those cheap fixed clubman bars on cb750s a hack, esp if it is paried with stock pegs - clearly bike ergonomics escapes the builder. Those emgo pods - sure the bike will run but you just choked it down and REMOVED hp so to me that is a functional issue. Sure the bike will get down the road under its own power but if the owner was willing to make compromises for the sake of style what other compromises are there. The whole bike just shows a general lack of understanding the cb750 but a whole lot of monkey see cafe monkey do cafe.

I don't see a whole lot of thought and a vintage performance motorcycle - I see a stock bike with shiny but ugly paint design, a set of fashion-y bars, and all the service items of a bike that has been sitting taken care of. I don't see a lot of "upgrades". I'm sure it is probably a good bike, it just isn't a $3K bike in my eyes.

I am surprised nobody has mentioned the valve guides yet.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 11:57:17 AM by Geeto67 »
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Offline lucky

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Re: Should I make this trade?
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2013, 12:10:30 PM »
The CB750 is a very substantial bike, but that one is not worth $3000 dollars.
There are better deals out there.


Offline THE BIG SITT

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Re: Should I make this trade?
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2013, 01:39:49 PM »
Have you charted the price of ninja 250s lately? If they run, look pretty, and haven't been crashed they tend to hit $2K and just stay there. maybe $1700 if it is an 80's model. It will still go down but the plucky little ninja holds value incredibly well.

I mentioned the parts I like to use on my bikes, and the parts that I woulkd EXPECT at $3K price tag. If it had a superbike bar I would give it a pass. I tend to regard anybody who uses those cheap fixed clubman bars on cb750s a hack, esp if it is paried with stock pegs - clearly bike ergonomics escapes the builder. Those emgo pods - sure the bike will run but you just choked it down and REMOVED hp so to me that is a functional issue. Sure the bike will get down the road under its own power but if the owner was willing to make compromises for the sake of style what other compromises are there. The whole bike just shows a general lack of understanding the cb750 but a whole lot of monkey see cafe monkey do cafe.

I don't see a whole lot of thought and a vintage performance motorcycle - I see a stock bike with shiny but ugly paint design, a set of fashion-y bars, and all the service items of a bike that has been sitting taken care of. I don't see a lot of "upgrades". I'm sure it is probably a good bike, it just isn't a $3K bike in my eyes.

I am surprised nobody has mentioned the valve guides yet.

Valve guides?

Offline bjbuchanan

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Re: Should I make this trade?
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2013, 08:16:31 PM »
My 2 cents worth:

For a guy who is selling (cb750 seller) to go racing, he clearly hasn't put any racing parts on that bike. Geeto67 hit the nail on the head with the hagons and springs mods, this guy built a "racer" using generic image parts. Does that mean the bike is a piece of crap? Certainly not, but it isn't some worked over hot rod like the hype man type ad says.

The maintenance parts are nice to have them taken care of already tho and I guess it boils down a little bit to is it fair value wise? Area pricing is subjective, a so so bike around me that is vintage won't be had for cheap prices, no chance in hell
The dirty girl-1976 cb750k, Ebay 836, Tracy bodykit
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Offline Stev-o

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Re: Should I make this trade?
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2013, 08:42:26 PM »
Trade!
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline Geeto67

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Re: Should I make this trade?
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2013, 08:58:26 PM »


Valve guides?

77-78 bikes tend to wear out valve guides faster than other models. It is more a problem with the F bikes but I think the K bikes have it as well. Start to look for worn valve guides right around 30K miles. I noticed the seller didn't list mileage.
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Offline ekpent

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Re: Should I make this trade?
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2013, 10:36:13 PM »
Too new poster and member THE BIG SITT how old are you anyways. Wish it was mandatory to have age just to see where people are coming from and their generation. Nothing personnel but just getting to know you,like Stevo and the rest of the bunch.
  As far as a cafe some are saying look at the 'quality' especially if it will be your main ride.

Offline MiGhost

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Re: Should I make this trade?
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2013, 10:47:24 PM »
Reading the laundry list on that 750 makes me think it is nothing more than a quick white wash, and flip deal. Sure, it looks good, and it has had enough new parts thrown on to give it the image.

No mention of any serious maintenance issues addressed beyond the master cylinder, chain, and sprockets. Where is the rebuilt brake system, and rebuilt forks? These are real safety concerns for a daily rider. How were these items addressed?  For the price the seller is asking. I would expect them to be taken care of.

With the lack of real information. I would say that the bike is not what it appears to be. Look closer, and check the documentation for anything that is claimed to be done.

The pics are just vague enough to be deceiving. I may well be wrong, but IMO it is just a window dresser.
~ Ghost

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Offline THE BIG SITT

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Re: Should I make this trade?
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2013, 05:03:25 AM »
Went and looked at the bike. It would seem as if those who were hesitant were correct. The bike was very clearly a 17-year-old's attempt at flipping a bike. Everything was half done, usually followed by the phrase "I just didn't get around to it. Example, the two bolts in front of the seat that keep the tank on were missing. There was a tube running from the carb on the left side that was secured with safety wire "because it gave a cleaner look. The 1st cylinder's header was leaking and needed a gasket. Geeto hit in on the head when talking about the bars and not the rearsets. It was one of if not the most unfomfortable bike I have ever been on. My Ninja has racing clip ons, but it has the rear sets to go with it. i find it fairly comfortable for about half an hour. This bike was uncomfortable in about 2 minutes.

Another HUGE red flag was him mentioning that he only owned it for a month! Seriously? I'm expected to believe a full time student with a part time job could do a quality job in a month?

So in the end, I passed. It disapoints me, because I was looking forward to a winter project, and I really cant afford to go all out and foot the entire bill of a cafe project (hence the trade). Oh well, time marches on.

One question though: Was it his Saddleman seat that made it so wide? I felt like even though it was a 4 cylinder 750, it should be as wide as it was. I've sat on all the modern bikes I could, and there wasn't a single sport bike that felt that wide. Not even a ZX14...

Offline Geeto67

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Re: Should I make this trade?
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2013, 05:38:27 AM »
cb750s are naturally wide bikes. What makes it easier stock is that the seat taipers as it rises so it conforms to meet your groin. If you just cut the foam in half and throw a cover over it it is going to feel flat and wide.

Here is the advice I give newbie to old bikes in real life. Rather than take a shotgun approach to old bikes and just see what's cool and for sale - pick a few models you really like and actively seek them out. be patient and look at a lot of bikes - you'll know the right deal when you are in the middle of it. I started riding these bikes when they were just 15-20 year old used bikes nobody wanted and therefore cheap. Now they are 35-40 year old bikes and have a lot more issues and good ones cost a decent amount. So it pays to do your research in this regard so you know what the issues are, whether they have been addressed, and whether quality parts have been used. The cb750 is an excellent commuter bike, I have owned mine since the mid 90's, put a ton of miles on it, and used it as my daily commuter. But i got it in really nice condition and always kept it that way. There are deals to be had out there, but you just might have to put some leg work in.

The one semi good piece of advice I can give you - any time you see an emgo pod filter know that your seller doesn't know the difference between good parts and a good deal (emgo filters are neither). I don't mean to be so judgmental on one part but those are usually a sign that whomever put them on is unabashedly cheap and didn't look at the part before he installed it. If he says it is a performance upgrade you can add not knowing his ass from his elbow to the list. Its a nice clear big red flag.

Final thought - vintage performance bikes are kind of personal to the owner. so if you are buying someone else's hot rod know that change is inevitable. You just want a good foundation. In this rush to be "cafe cool" people forgot or didn't realize there should be a good solid performing motorcycle underneath. The modifications should make sense to you from a functional standpoint not just aesthetic. Some other red flags are:

- Knee dents on a stock tank: you can lose up to a gallon of fuel capacity and adds weight - all for "racer style", blegh. Serves no functional purpose and tries to hard to make an old bike look older. The exception is if the tank capacity has been increased to 5 gallons or larger because you need that space to clear your legs.

- Fixed clubman bars with stock pegs: clubman bars were designed for small european and british twins in the 50's, not big fat japanes 4 cyl leg burners. as such 90% of the fixed ones out there are a poor fit and the ones that aren't cost real money. a good sign a clubman bar is a poor fit is if the master cylinder is turned in an uncomfortable wrist breaking angle to clear the gauges. Also look for clubman rash - spots where the bar hits the tank (esp a problem on the F bikes). if you see that bar with a set of stock pegs know that whomever installed them doesn't understand ergonomics. That position forces you to bend your back into an arch as the ass to seat position tries to hold your body upright while you bend forward to reach the bars. I personally call this the crapping in the woods riding position because without the bike that's what it looks like you are doing.

- open pipes: If loud pipes saved lives, imagine what training and proper gear would do. People think motorcycles should be as loud as possible. However if you are a long time rider you know that volume leads to rider fatigue and also being treated like an arsehole by everyone around you. A little music is fine, a 4" open meg is just obnoxious and crude.

- changed master cylinders: if you see a new master on old calipers be wary. 1) the person probably can't rebuild the master so they just bought a new one off ebay, 2) they probably didn't understand what those little cast numbers mean underneat, 3) you might not have a front brake light switch. If you see one, check that the piston is the same size as stock (or appropriate size if upgraded to dual disc) by reading the cast numbers on the underside. Also check for a brake switch. If it has both those things take comfort in the fact the seller/builder was using his head. If not - be very cautious a the bike may have spongy or wooden brakes.
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Offline madmtnmotors

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Re: Should I make this trade?
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2013, 05:53:16 AM »
Example, the two bolts in front of the seat that keep the tank on were missing.

There are no "bolts" that hold the tank on. There are two rubbers up front and one rubber bushing/strap under the rear of the tank to keep it in place. With the seat mounted the tank is captured in place.


One question though: Was it his Saddleman seat that made it so wide? I felt like even though it was a 4 cylinder 750, it should be as wide as it was. I've sat on all the modern bikes I could, and there wasn't a single sport bike that felt that wide. Not even a ZX14...

The seats are quite wide. Newer bikes tend to taper to a more narrow profile towards the front from what I've seen.

If there are a bunch of loose ends then you probably did well to pass. For that price it should "need nothing". I have a 78' CB750F that truly needs nothing, is nearly original (has dyna ignition, aftermarket 4-1 exhaust, K&N filter in stock airbox, aftermarket seat covering, aftermarket shocks) that has had a functional restoration (new tires, tubes, fork seals, calipers and master cylinders rebuilt, carbs rebuilt, new chain/sprockets, new battery, ALL connectors in the wiring harness cleaned/inspected/and a few connectors replaced, any leaky seals replaced, new tapered steering stem bearings, cables lubed and adjusted) that I will be listing for sale soon with a starting price around 2700. I would not hesitate to ride mine anywhere, but this one has to go so I can start on the next one (I have six, three "F"'s and three "K"'s). I see many in lesser "functional" condition go for much more, you often have to be patient to find the right deal.
TAMTF...


Wilbur



Projects:
"Evolution": http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=100352.0
"P.O. Debacle": http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,126692.msg1441661.html#msg1441661
F2/F3 O-rings: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=113672.msg1300721#msg1300721
Cam Tower Studs: https://www.mcmaster.com/#93210a017/=t19sgp
Clean up that nasty harness: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=137351.msg1549191#msg1549191
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,148188.msg1688494.html#msg1688494
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,139544.msg1579364.html#msg1579364
                                          
Charging system diagnosis: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=1012.msg8345#msg8345
Get the manuals: http://manuals.sohc4.net/cb750k/
The Dragon: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=45183.msg1571675#msg1571675
Headlight Switch: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=113986.msg1283236#msg1283236
Branden's leak free top end thread: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=107040.0
Engine Lifting Made Easy: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,58210.msg1684742.html#msg1684742
                                      http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,100352.msg1675840.html#msg1675840
Static and Dynamic Timing: http://www.hondachopper.com/garage/carb_info/timing/timing1.html
Airbox Gasket Replacement: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,114485.msg1290000.html#msg1290000
"Café" : http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,84697.msg953814.html#msg953814
PD Carb Choke Linkage: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,100352.msg1669248.html#msg1669248
                                    http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,110931.msg1248354.html#msg1248354
                                    http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,48858.msg515204.html#msg515204
Follow up on your damn posts: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,144305.msg1791605.html#msg1791605
Taiwanese Cam Chain Tensioners:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,155043.msg1774841.html#msg1774841
Gumtwo Seat Cover: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,164440.msg1897366.html#msg1897366
Primary Drive: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,166063.msg1919278.html#msg1919278
Tank Latch: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,165975.msg1919495.html#msg1919495
Shorten your forks: http://vintage-and-classic-honda-s.456789.n3.nabble.com/How-to-shorten-forks-td4042465.html DO NOT CUT THE SPRINGS!
Clutch How To: http://vintage-and-classic-honda-s.456789.n3.nabble.com/How-to-change-and-adjust-a-clutch-SOHC-td4040391.html
Late model K7/K8/F2/F3 front sprocket cover removal: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,178428.msg2072279.html#msg2072279
630 to 530 conversion: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180710.msg2094423.html#msg2094423

Sent from my Tandy TRS-80!