Topic: Not wanting to throw another rock through a hornet's nest, but...

[Jonesy]

...this is another oil thread. 

Bear with me and read on. I was in the Honda dealer the other day picking up a few things and I was looking at the selection of oils offered. If you go with the Honda offering, they only offer a conventional/synthetic blend. Since many of us agree on the benefits of full synthetic oil, I asked the counterman if Honda had a full synthetic oil offering. He told me no, and that Honda does not recommend full synthetic oil to be used in any of it's machines, so they do not offer it. 

Granted, we're talking about current production bikes, but this got me to wondering why this is. Any thoughts? I'm really curious.

[SteveD CB500F]

The manual on my VFR800 says to use semi-synthetic as the full sythetic does not work well with the wet clutch.

Now where have we heard that before??

[dusterdude]

just for info,mobil one sells a full syn motorcycle oil.

[SteveD CB500F]

Presumably only for use with dry clutches (like Ducati for example)

[dusterdude]

the mobil one does not have the friction modifiers in it.

[Pinhead]

What about diesel engine oil?

Could you temporarily add ATF to help seal leaky valve seals??

[hymodyne]

I recently changed oil and filter, but used rotella 15W-20 instead of Rotella 5W-20 Diesel synthetic  in my '72 cb500. Man, what a difference! I can't wait until payday, to get some synthetic back in that crankcase...with the 15W, in less than 200 miles, I have consistent oil pressure issues, much more clanking in in the gearcase in low gears and in general, much poorer performance than when I have run the synthetic.

I'm sold on Rotella T !

hym

[dusterdude]

What about diesel engine oil?

Could you temporarily add ATF to help seal leaky valve seals??

pinhead,the atf might cause slippage issues with your clutch.

[Uncle Ernie]

I have found, and have been told by others, that full synth in older machines cause seal problems.  On my older wetclutch bikes, I use the regular Honda oil. For the newer bikes, I use the synthetic blend.  Both are relatively good prices, too, compared to Motul and the like.

[Noel]

I'm using full synthetic in my '73 CB500. Clutch is trouble-free, shifting is much improved, seals are fine. A sample of one, of course, but...

[Chris Schneiter]

And I switched this spring (Two oil threads ago) to "Motorcycle" Synth. Much quieter, better heat resistance, and no leaks.

[Einyodeler]

I`ve said it before and I`ll say it again. Been using Rotella T full synthetic in all of my bikes for years, no clutch slip or oil leaking past seals.
It`s the best oil for the buck in these old bikes.

[Noel]

I've wondered, on occasion, about the seal issues. Ernie says he's had problems and I'm not going to call him a liar. I wonder if it's simply a matter of probabilities: any seal will eventually fail. Perhaps some of those failures simply happened to coincide with a switch to synthetic, thus giving rise to the idea that synthetic equals seal failure?

[Jonesy]

Guys... Guys...

My intent was not to get into the whole conventional/synthetic, moly/non-moly, dealer/store bought, detergent/non-detergent, 3.0/3.7 Quarts, yadda yadda yadda arguments. As I said before I just wondered why if synthetics were so good (and more expensive), why wouldn't Honda  want us using them. Steve's post essentially answered my question. I hadn't thought much about the clutch.

[SteveD CB500F]

Glad to be of service.   

[flyin_]

just for info,mobil one sells a full syn motorcycle oil.

I use the mobile 1 full syn with my 2000 honda magna with a wet clutch and plenty of power with no problems.  I know lots of guys that run the Mobile 1 in their magnas. 

[ElCheapo]

I have never jumped on an oil thread so....


I use Belray in everything. More consistent oil pressures. After all every drop counts. 

[eldar]

Here is probably the primary reason honda does not want synthetic used. IT WORKS BETTER! They would have less coming in the service departments and would make less money on parts! Why do cars these days not last long like they used to? Supposedly they are built better and all this other crap. They should almost never have issues yet they do all the time.

[Roach Carver]

canola/peanut- fifty fifty

[Dave K]

What ever you have faith in a lubricate is what counts, at least to me. I have used nothing but Castrol since the late 60's and have yet to wear out or rebuild a Honda motor, transmission or clutch. I change oil after every ride in the dirtbikes(well weekend) and every 2000 mile or earlier on street bikes( at least once a year). As a matter of fact, I use Castrol in my cars and have not wore them out either. I trade up because the bodies are tired. Personally, I feel the best deal is to make sure you have good oil, changed often. Your mileage may vary.

[nickjtc]

I've missed out on the historical issues on this forum to do with oil. Here is my 44 cents worth (4 cents, + inflation, as usual), plus a question.

In all of my years of motorcycling/driving I have never used anything other than the oils specified in the manual for that particular vehicle. I change oil the oil at more frequent intervals than the manufacturer recommends, because (especially in the car) I do a lot of in town/short journey driving, or in the case of the bike I 'think' I am doing the internals a favour. I always take my used oil to a recycling facility. I've never used synthetic oil, but always use 'name brand' oils (usually Castrol), specific to the vehicle. Never had a problem. Always been happy with engine performance or gas mileage or other issues. Love the price.

So, a question to you folks who swear by synthetic oils. As a complete novice to the use of synthetic oil, what would be the advantage of switching from non-synthetic to synthetic?

Dave K's post snuck in while I was doing this one. Sorry if I am a bit repetitive to his comments!

[Ernie]

i used two quarts of valveline semi sinthetic, before i read these forums,when i first got my bike and my clutch has been slipping ever since. i plan on replacing it this winter if it lasts that long

[number13]

While we are beating this long dead horse...

I just recently switched from regular automobile 30 weight to
Valvoline 10w-40 four stroke oil and noticed two improvements
immediately:
1) Smooter clutch action
2) My shifter seal, which had always leaked even after
    being replaced twice, stopped leaking.

#13

[jbailey]

I use Rotells T Synthetic.  I use it in five bikes ranging from 1973 to 2006.  I have used it for years with NO problems.  It improves shift on every bike. Best Motorcycle oil on the market.

So, a question to you folks who swear by synthetic oils. As a complete novice to the use of synthetic oil, what would be the advantage of switching from non-synthetic to synthetic?

One huge advantage is the lack of polymers which are added to conventional oils to make a multi-viscosity oil.  Polymers shear rapidly in a transmission.  Cars do not share engine oil with the transmission and therefore do not suffer from shear as much.

As to why Honda does not use full synthetic.  It is probably overkill if you follow the recommended oil change intervals.  The shear is why 1500 miles for your motorcycle is reccommended while cars are 7500 or so.  They can sell you conventional oil at the price of synthetic and have you change it more often.  This means more profit for Honda.  It's that simple.

The rumors of seal failure, clutch slippage and such are all urban myths by the way.  Do some research and find out for yourself.

[Noel]

I use synthetic primarily because it makes the semi-grumpy 500 gearbox function better.

I'm also hoping it will make the engine last a bit better, but wouldn't be too surprised to learn that it doesn't. Anecdotal evidence says that it will. Empirical evidence hasn't arrived, at least not on my monitor.

I believe the folks who say the additives in synthetic automobile oil can make the clutch slip, so don't plan on finding out for sure.

[Saddlewarmer]

synthetic oil seems to have more cleaning properties than regular oil, therefore it cleans the gunk from inside the engine which might be sealing a hole, therefore you now have a seal leaking. seals in good shape, no leaks.
oil for diesels has more detergent for keeping a diesel clean.

[aptech77]

DO NOT use a 30 weight car oil in bikes. This will cause clutch slipage because 30 weight oil has molys, anti-friction modifiers. You need to use a 40 or 50 weight oil, but replace it with in 1k.  It will break down faster that a TRUE cycle oil. Mobile MX4T is a full syn that will work on wet clutch systems. 7-8 bucks a qt.

[nickjtc]

Thanks to all...this is very interesting stuff!

[eldar]

aptech,  iwould re-read the old oil posts. not all oils are the same. I used a 10w30 oil and it did not have moly or energy conserving additives. Worked fine for wet clutches. There was a previous article posted here about tests done on oil which showed that motorcycle oil was no better than auto oil really. Rotella is not a motorcycle oil and you see people here giving it rave reviews.
 
You just have to read the label. It is easy to do and much better than clinging to the old myths put out by motorcycle oil producers.

This article shows that a simple mobil1 synthetic FOR CARS was better than motorcycle oils AND cost less.

http://www.xs11.com/stories/mcnoil94.htm

[BobbyR]

What about diesel engine oil?

Could you temporarily add ATF to help seal leaky valve seals??

Pinhead, ATF is an old school fix amond dirt riders. They would soak the plates in ATF to improve friction. Remember Automatics have clutches inside. I would not run the bike on ATF but as an soak and slow idle you should be fine. Drain it out and put good oil in it

[Pinhead]

What about diesel engine oil?

Could you temporarily add ATF to help seal leaky valve seals??

Pinhead, ATF is an old school fix amond dirt riders. They would soak the plates in ATF to improve friction. Remember Automatics have clutches inside. I would not run the bike on ATF but as an soak and slow idle you should be fine. Drain it out and put good oil in it

Should I top my oil off with a quart or so of ATF and let it idle? Or should I replace all the oil with ATF and let it idle? It would obviously need to be completely changed after the idle time, but what exactly is the procedure?

[eldar]

I have heard of this being done in cars. You only put in like 1 quart on a car. You probably would not want to put in that much on a bike. Maybe half a quart and repeat the next oil change. If it is even recommended.

[jbailey]

There was a previous article posted here about tests done on oil which showed that motorcycle oil was no better than auto oil really. Rotella is not a motorcycle oil and you see people here giving it rave reviews.

Actually there is no such thing as auto, motorcycle, truck, diesel or go-kart oil.  It all has to do with additive packages and marketing.  What you need to do is determine what you need or more importantly do NOT need (such as moly) and pick an oil that fits.

"Automotive" oils are typically decreasing the use zinc and phosphorus, which prevents heavy load engine damage, due to catalytic converter use on cars and the increase of friction modifiers such as moly which causes clutch slip in wet clutch motorcycles.

"Motorcycle" oils generally have higher zinc and phosphorus content for load protection and NO moly for wet clutches.  They usually have a picture of a motorcycle on the front of the bottle.  That picture apparently has royalty fees of a couple of dollars per bottle.

"Diesel" oils generally have higher zinc and phosphorus content for load protection and NO moly for wet clutches. This oil is generally chemically identical to "motorcycle" oils, but do not have the expensive motorcycle picture.  (Hmmmmmm).

Rotella is not a motorcycle oil and you see people here giving it rave reviews.

Why is that?  (Hmmmmmm again).

All oils have dispersants which are commonally called "detergents".  The misconception is that this "detergent" is a cleaner like a laundry soap.  It is actually a dispersant which is designed to keep dirt and combustion by-products suspended in the oil rather than letting it settle and cause sludge.  All engine oils have about the same dispersant action no matter what brand or other characteristics.  The "cleaning" action is preventative to prevent sludge.  Once the sludge is there no oil will "clean" your engine.

Synthetic and conventional oils will work equally in most any modern engine produced except for rotary (Wankel) engines.  There is no way any oil can cause oil leaks, clutch slippage or whatever.  It is all about the additives.

[Pinhead]

When it comes to cleaning the inside of an engine, I remember hearing of an experiment that was ran a while back...

The guys went to a junk yard and got the crappiest, most beat-up looking car they could find. Pulling the valve covers revealed a head full of goo. They proceeded to drain the "oil" out of the pan (which was more like white-brown slime) and changed oil filters. Instead of adding engine oil, they filled the thing to "full" with Liquid Wrench and WD-40. After letting it set for a while they proceeded to crank the engine. At first it wouldln't start and they had to tow the thing (had a manual tranny) around the junk yard for an hour or so. Just before they gave up on the thing it started to sputter and smoke, pop and weeze. When it finally started it smoked like it was running on pure tranny fluid. They ran the crap out of it for a couple of hours around the junk yard, by no means sparing the throttle. When they were done they parked it and re-drained the pan and changed filters. You can only imagine the kind of crap that came out of it this time! They did this once a day for about 3 days, and each time the engine smoked less than before. After three solid days of molesting this engine, it completely stopped smoking! They pulled the valve covers once again and all of the sludge and slime was gone. Added "normal" engine oil and continued maintenance. A tuen-up was obviously required, complete with rocker arm adjustments, new spark plugs, carb cleaning, and everything else that a "normal" person would do to a car that's been setting for a while. The car ran so good that they continued driving the thing to haul stuff around the yard.

While I wouldn't even think about doing this to my motorcycle, I would consider trying it on an old beater bike that's not worth much, especially if the engine is stuck. I'm guessing it stopped smoking because the Liquid Wrench freed up the sticky rings and valve seals. I know that the common method to un-stick an engine is to fill the cyllinders up with WD-40 or Liquid Wrench, but I never thought of filling the entire engine with the stuff! And then running the thing that way!?!

[jbailey]

Just found an interesting review on a HONDA website:

http://tech.vtxoa.com/index.php?action=artikel&cat=39&id=32&artlang=en

[Bob Wessner]

they filled the thing to "full" with Liquid Wrench and WD-40

Seems to me that both of these have about zero viscosity and provide no protection to bearing surfaces.

[aptech77]

Yea, this sound like a BAD idea!!

[78 k550]

I'm using Rotella synthetic in my 75 goldwing and will put it in all my bikes when the oil is do to be changed. It is some really good stuff.

Paul

[Pinhead]

they filled the thing to "full" with Liquid Wrench and WD-40

Seems to me that both of these have about zero viscosity and provide no protection to bearing surfaces.

Yea, this sound like a BAD idea!!

That's why they did it to an old junker that would've been crushed otherwise. But it did seem to work for them. After the thing quit smoking they changed the oil/oil filter again, replacing the WD-40/LiquidWrench mix with 10W-30. Like I said before, I definately wouldn't do it to any engine that is running, only if the motor was stuck or considered "shot" anyway.