Topic: If Honda could've done any better...

[cabrala]

I guess what it comes down to for me is that I'm 25 years old, born in 1988 and don't remember anything except the early 90's onward...

History is all I have to understand these bikes, as well as what those who were there have say about the times. I am stilling learning and researching but none of that will compare to living then. I don't know if there were improvements that COULD HAVE been made over the CB's duration. I'm certain there were competitors post-1969 that were successful.

What was around then for technology that Honda didn't incorporate? Were they just always the best damn bikes on the face of the planet? Clearly I am asking this question in a forum devoted to the love of these machines, but people are always tinkering and have been since the bikes were bought brand new off the showroom. Were all those modifications then just purely aesthetic? I'm doubtful.

[70CB750]

Lucky, how do you get fuel injection without electronics?

[754]

You should have seen what people were riding ten years or even five...before the 754 came out..stoneage back then..

[Magilla]

Magilla you wish for spinon for a bike that was built when no no bike had them ..if thats the case, i wish they had lighter floating rotors, and better caliper mounts.. But they didnt..

 I dont get the whole spinon bs. Does nobody here care enough about their engine condition to check whats inside the filter every time.... Maybe I am the only one.. ,, it takes like maybe 3 minutes or less..
I know guys that cut open spinons constantly..but its on stuff that only came with a spinon.

The spin on filter was around in 1969.  It may not have been on a bike but it existed in the auto industry for many years.  Honda would not have needed to invent it, they could have just used it like Ford, GM and others did.  It is my belief that if the oil filter is easy and cheap to replace, people will do it more often.  the end result of this will be cleaner engines that last longer.  Just my belief.

Also for what its worth my 1970 Norton has NO oil filter.  To me that is nuts.  That is a poor design.

[754]

Spin on causes laziness and less people look at their oil
 On the norton just change it lots..
 The 750 had a quantum leap on the filter . How many others had a changeable filter, not buried in the engine? I meant japan offerings......H-D had it at top of tank by 65ish..

[Rookster]

A frame that allows the top end of the engine to be removed without taking the entire engine out of the frame.  The generator to be moved behind the cylinder reducing the width of the engine.  Reduce the overall weight of the motorcycle.

Something that has to be said: The CB750 wasn't the all conquering bike we think it was.  It had enough performance and a low enough price (in America) to outsell other sporting 750s.  If it cost $500 more than the Commando it may have ended up as the Suzuki Water Buffalo.  The Trident and Commando were quicker, handled better, and looked better.  They were also kick starters, leakers, and short distance bikes (unless you wanted to break down in the middle of nowhere).  The CB750 had a very poor competition record because it was so heavy and wide.  Something about that fact is troubling for a high performance motorcycle or the "motorcycle of the century".

Scott

[BPellerine]

a little less weight and a frame that let you work on the bike in the frame.was not a new thing even then!bill

[Hondell]

Better ignition and carbs. I've never owned a vehicle that " the plugs are done in 1000 miles" Even my vintage 2 strokes don't eat plugs like the 750.   

[lrutt]

Lrutt, the question was "what could have been better".  It was not a question of was it good or even great, it was simply what could have been better.  You have to understand that spirit of the question.

Yes it has an oil filter and that is good BUT a simple spin on/spin off would be better. 

Yes the brakes work very well and better than almost anything at that time BUT dual disks would have been better.

Think of it as a wish list.  If you could make anything even slightly better, what would you improve?


People on this site get so sensitive over these bikes.  If you mention that something could be improved or that you like a different bike people go bananas.  Its as if you punched their grandmother.

If the design of this bike was perfect there would never have been another improvement to anything in the motorcycle industry, EVER.  Every single motorcycle ever produced from 1969 through today would be a SOHC 4 with a single disc brake and a rats nest behind the headlight.

They would all have flat seats and 4 into 4 exhausts made of tin that rust quickly. 
No one would have needed to invent fuel injection or anti lock brakes. 
Fuel bowls will be regularly spilling over on all new bikes. 
A fuel filter would have never made its way on a bike. 
A 130 rear tire would be all that we see in MotoGP. 
Rubber mounted motors would not exist. 
Chromolly and aluminum frames would never be invented.
The list goes on.

But you didn't say wish list, you said better. the oil filter is optimum as it provides extra oil cooling. A spin on would not.

Dual disks add sprung weight and weight overall. The K's were not a road race bike so for intended purpose they were more than adequate. Hence why Honda made a sport version to address that small market segment.

So....as a UJM which is what it is. could they really have made any meaningfull improvements?

Nice big flat seat to move around on.
Plenty of range on the tank
over engineered motor for durability

The ONLY item I heard mentioned that had any merit might have been the exhaust, making it SS.

Other than that....I'd have to challenge most of the suggestions.

[lrutt]

Magilla you wish for spinon for a bike that was built when no no bike had them ..if thats the case, i wish they had lighter floating rotors, and better caliper mounts.. But they didnt..

 I dont get the whole spinon bs. Does nobody here care enough about their engine condition to check whats inside the filter every time.... Maybe I am the only one.. ,, it takes like maybe 3 minutes or less..
I know guys that cut open spinons constantly..but its on stuff that only came with a spinon.

The spin on filter was around in 1969.  It may not have been on a bike but it existed in the auto industry for many years.  Honda would not have needed to invent it, they could have just used it like Ford, GM and others did.  It is my belief that if the oil filter is easy and cheap to replace, people will do it more often.  the end result of this will be cleaner engines that last longer.  Just my belief.

Also for what its worth my 1970 Norton has NO oil filter.  To me that is nuts.  That is a poor design.

But that is SOOOOOOO easy to fix. Put the oil filter adapter on from the 73 on Nortons. Will fit right in the cradle. you MIGHT have to drill 2 holes then route the hoses. Such an easy fix.

I actually adapted them to both my old Triumphs as well.

[lucky]

Lucky,  you seem upset today.  Do you need a hug?

No one is saying that these bikes are not great.  They are great bikes.  They deserve the title of "Bike of the Century".  SOHC, reliable, easy to start, not an oil leaker, the list goes on and on and on.

But the question was, what could they have done better based on the technology of the times.  Do you think these bikes are perfect and could not have been improved at all?  If so, pull off your headlight and look at the rats nest back there.

Very few things are so perfect that they could not be made better, even if ever so slightly.  Take the thong fro instance.  No one can dispute what a great invention that was BUT it should only come in size small and medium and there should NEVER EVER be any made for men.

At least it was a color coded rats nest. Prior to that motorcycles all had all black colored rats nests. lol

[tomkimberly]

Lucky, how do you get fuel injection without electronics?

How young are you?   

Some Corvairs back in the 60's had mechanical fuel injection.

Tom

[Magilla]

It should be noted that I am not looking to change anything on my CB750.  I wanted an old Japanese bike and to me this was the best of the best.  I was just pointing out things that I think Honda could have done better.  It is simply my opinion.

Also I could not disagree more with the statement that a spin on filter, due to being easier to replace, creates a situation where people are less likely to change it.  I don't buy into that thought process at all.  Many of the people that bought these bikes back in the 70's lived in cities and did not have garages or huge tool boxes.  I was one of them (although it was the 80s fro me).  I hated changing the oil on my bike because it was a pain in the butt.  My friends that rode told me it was a waste of time.  They never changed theirs because it was such a pain.

Clean oil = happy motor = happy rider

[Magilla]

Lucky, how do you get fuel injection without electronics?

How young are you?   

Some Corvairs back in the 60's had mechanical fuel injection.

Tom

Mechanical fuel injection was used by several auto MFGs throughout the 60s.  It became much more reliable with the advancement of electronics.

[dave500]

gear primary drive,if your doing plugs every 1000 miles your doing something wrong hondell.

[70CB750]

Yep, same experience.  Should have said reliable injection.

We had in the shop a fuel injected old Mercedes and that was something special, let me tell you.

[lucky]

I guess what it comes down to for me is that I'm 25 years old, born in 1988 and don't remember anything except the early 90's onward...

History is all I have to understand these bikes, as well as what those who were there have say about the times. I am stilling learning and researching but none of that will compare to living then. I don't know if there were improvements that COULD HAVE been made over the CB's duration. I'm certain there were competitors post-1969 that were successful.

What was around then for technology that Honda didn't incorporate? Were they just always the best damn bikes on the face of the planet? Clearly I am asking this question in a forum devoted to the love of these machines, but people are always tinkering and have been since the bikes were bought brand new off the showroom. Were all those modifications then just purely aesthetic? I'm doubtful.

OK...Ok..
A little short history lesson and I understand now.
I do not know what "value engineering" is though,honestly.

Before Honda there were 50 brands of motorcycles being manufactured in the United States.
One for every letter of the alphabet. i used to be able to name them.

Anyway they were sort of all like british looking motorcycles.
They all leaked oil. The people that owned them were thugs. (had to be).
They were broke down a lot but mostly from vibration problems.
Poor wiring and headlights that were dim and flickered when riding.
Then is when I came into the disease. I was about 16 and the first Honda 50's hit the shores of the US.

Yes 50cc. They had plastic parts and automatic clutches.
They were very simple and Honda promoted a slogan of "You meet the nicest people on a Honda".

The need more people to ride bikes so they could sell more bikes. Everyday people.like students and factory workers etc.,.

BTW the Honda 50 and Honda 90 is the motorcycle that has sold more in the world than ANY other motorcycle. That is significant.

Then Honda upped the stakes.
They introduced the CB160, CB250 and CB305 Super hawk.
Then came the CB450,CB500-550's.

The CB450 (so called) Bomber. black porpoise etc.,.
That was huge because the motorcycle world considered that a "real" motorcycle and a serious challenge to all companies.
Hondas were reliable too.

I was a dealer ship mechanic all that time.
My twin brother and I would joke around and would say, "IF Honda makes a 750 that will be really outrageous and nothing could touch it.

Well it was no daydream it happened.
At the dealership in those days there was no hype.
One day a truck would bring in some wood crates and anything could be in those crates. There could be a new color bike ,a new design of bike never seen before just like when the CB450 showed up. Very exciting days!!

Well one day the CB750 showed up WOW!!
To us back then it was a monster and only the big guys in the shop got to test ride it and they did look a little worried about how fast it would be.

Came in every color ,CANDY colors!
Candy apple anything was big back then.

Then Honda entered the CB750 into the first big race and it won by one complete lap. Beat all other bikes but most important beat H-D. I think that was daytona.
Let me know if I am wrong about that. My memory gets fuzzy.

Slowly year after year Hondas reputation grew and was challenged mostly by the new Yamaha 650 twin that looked like a British bike but did not leak.
The british bikes did not have electric start like the Hondas either and that was important.

Even the son of H-D company took over and put in a serious bid to save the company by designing a bike called the "night train" that was a black bad ass bike.

The fight for market share got more intense and the motorcyclists had lots of choices.
Next the Honda slogan changed to " Follow the leader"
Yamaha squashed that with" Don't follow anyone"

The Yamaha V Max was on TV doing a burn out on the drag strip!
Up in your face.

Unfortunately many motorcycle companies went out of business.
The brits had to get going fast to keep from going under. They get their first electric start bike.
Better electrical system etc.,. But it was too late really.

What is going on now is young guys are rebuilding and discovering all of those bikes
and rebuilding them because the economy is bad all over the world. Even young men in other countries are finding out about the big japanese bikes form that time period.

Meanwhile Honda has stopped production of the VTX1800.
Suzuki has stopped production of their 1400 Intruder
that had at least a 15 year popular run.

Yamaha made a re run of the V max but the price went so high who can afford them? Not many.

I think Yamaha should have made the old ones again with very minor changes and kept the steel tube frame and kept the cost down.

All of the smaller bike got so extreme into the road racer thing they are not comfortable for going to work on or just running down to the grocery store.
Instead you have to suit up and prepare to race?
Anyway we need more sensible smaller every day bikes. Not crotch rockets with 150 HP for 16 year olds.

The present day V Star by Yamaha is a good example of a everyday kind of bike for many riders of different ages. A big cruiser that is sensible. They just need to keep improving that little by little. Get that oil filter on the 1100 where it can be changed without taking off the exhaust pipe and foot board to do it. Stuff like that.
Keep the two color paint scheme .
Don"t get rid of the two color paint scheme like Kawasaki did. Mistake.

I could talk all day about motorcycles but i hope this gives you some "history".

[bjbuchanan]

The way I see it is that the bike, when it hit, was a bad mofo that kinda turned things on its ear. The full combination of new/different/optimized parts was more than anybody was ready to do.

What I think could have been done better was to not rest on their laurels and improve things maybe every three years. The most significant improvements were probably the pd carbs for 77-78. Besides that things were largely unchanged, disappointingly so. They simplified some things, tried some different stuff like the carb rack and simple throttle cable.

The changes were usually bean counter type stuff, like the lighter, slimmer front caliper hangar and caliper. They didn't rly change much going on there for the life of that bike. The f model was cool with the rear disc but they didn't really hang themselves out there again like they did with the 69. It kinda reminds me of what ford did with the 79-93 fox body mustangs. Superficial changes for the most part that were cheap to employ because other models like the lincoln had made money on the parts. They didn't really get on to major changes until they saw sales slipping away too much

If you look at other manufacturers and what they were doing it wasn't until like 79/80 is that anything was much better than our SOHC bikes. BUT... we had switched to a DOHC with improved charging, different engine, different harness, different ignition eventually so I suppose you can't say they did better.

You can nitpick and compare and pull single things from manufacturers but that isn't a realistic comparison. My only realistic complaint, in my opinion, is that the bigger bikes could have had a better backbone design so they could be serviced in frame. The seat height is already high, backbone is tall and they still couldn't throw us a bone for a valvecover removal?

[lucky]

Lrutt, the question was "what could have been better".  It was not a question of was it good or even great, it was simply what could have been better.  You have to understand that spirit of the question.

Yes it has an oil filter and that is good BUT a simple spin on/spin off would be better.

Yes the brakes work very well and better than almost anything at that time BUT dual disks would have been better.

Think of it as a wish list.  If you could make anything even slightly better, what would you improve?


People on this site get so sensitive over these bikes.  If you mention that something could be improved or that you like a different bike people go bananas.  Its as if you punched their grandmother.

If the design of this bike was perfect there would never have been another improvement to anything in the motorcycle industry, EVER.  Every single motorcycle ever produced from 1969 through today would be a SOHC 4 with a single disc brake and a rats nest behind the headlight.

They would all have flat seats and 4 into 4 exhausts made of tin that rust quickly. 
No one would have needed to invent fuel injection or anti lock brakes. 
Fuel bowls will be regularly spilling over on all new bikes. 
A fuel filter would have never made its way on a bike. 
A 130 rear tire would be all that we see in MotoGP. 
Rubber mounted motors would not exist. 
Chromolly and aluminum frames would never be invented.
The list goes on.

Aluminum frames are junk. Cheap to ship is all.
If you buy a $30,000 Ducati you get a steel tubular frame TIG welded.
Aluminum frame cannot be repaired easily. They get damaged easily.
The insurance companies have to total out all the crashes now. Not better.

What car ever had an exhaust system that lasted 30 or more years. -NONE
Hondas do not need rubber mounted engines. They have balancers in the V twins.

Cars did not have spin filters for many years.
Honda was not into the modern, use it and throw it away spin on anything.
They were into make it good,make it user friendly, and make it re usable and re cleanable. Not use the spin on filters and throw into the land fills.

Honda has always been pro environment.

Many manufacturers are still making SOHC bikes. IT works,it is simple. It is less expensive than DOHC

[Don R]

My opinion is, the engineers wanted dual discs. That's why they made the parts symmetrical and put the lugs on the second fork.  My dragster has a spin on filter and I cut it open to look inside, I have no problem with the filter arrangement. A stainless exhaust would have been revolutionary but the originals all rusted fast in the midwest.  Some drain holes on the bottom frame rails and the top of the frame seal welded to keep water out would have been nice. The fuse block could have been better.

It is the bike that made all the others better. I saw it happen.

[Hondell]

Doing something wrong Dave?? look up Hondamans posts of  8KV spark voltage and drilling out emulsifier tubes. Dirty plugs were/are the norm. The carbs and ignitions are something Honda could have done better. Just like the subject line says. How many 750's do you own?

[lucky]

Lucky, how do you get fuel injection without electronics?

Direct fuel injection like the new Toyotas.
Engine turns a pump. Squirts fuel directly into the combustion chamber.
Use sensors for temp.
Your foot controls the throttle body with a linkage. No fly by wire throttles.

[SF]

interesting history lesson. I was made in 75 on the back of a honda

[BPellerine]

yeah this is the bike that changed it all but the design is why so many of these things are in bits a lot more people know how to fix them now than they did then.as for this bike or that bike being leaky or crude I think you will find that most problems are OWNER related as we tend to think everything is plug and play.Magilla weigh your Norton then weigh your Honda they will both do 115 120 ,one not as quick as the other .had a guy say that the Honda frame felt like it was bolted to the floor!so think how much better they could have been.best part of Honda is the engine.bill

[flybox1]

IMO, a better(brighter) headlight is all a stocker needs.