Topic: If Honda could've done any better...

[PeWe]

If I were to hope for anything different on a CB750....Hydraulic valve adjusters.

Or like Ducati  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmodromic_valve
I have never had any issues with my valves. Check clearance rather seldom. 1-2 times /year
I really miss the possibility to change cam without tearing everything apart. OEM engine no need of that. Interesting when trying different grade of hot cams.

[lucky]

Based on experience with friends in my age group (riding GSX-R or CBR) it's so easy to say, today, that theses bikes don't hold their own performance-wise, are sluggish in handling and slow to brake based on the rocket-ships we have access to, but it's so off context and thus my appreciation for these replies.

In as much I know that there are a good many modern options for these bikes but I enjoy hearing about the options during that time. Just how great these were, but also where they fall short.

To clarify my original question a little, everyone has very specific, very personal relationship with their bike(s). Through this we form an opinion about the good and the bad; the untouchable and the changeable. Whether you own a 750F and some late-model 550's (like I do) or a 350, 400, 500 and 750K or even some combination of that, you've had these thoughts.

Some folks who grew up in this period will remember how cutting edge these bikes were (in all facets) while others, myself included, will wonder if better components were left in the design room because what do we have to go on besides speculation?

What you say is all true except the part about better solutions left in the design room floor. They did the very best they could at that time with what they had.

The motorcycle magazines at that time did have  photos of actual Honda factory scenes. You can go to a good University library to the "stacks" and read some of those old magazines if you have the opportunity.

[cabrala]

That's a good suggestion. I've also been told to go read up on Poppa Honda and his progressive thinking.

[Magilla]

(it was the fastest PRODUCTION bike in the world, and the quickest STOCK factory bike until the Kawi Z1 appeared)

That is total bull #$%*. It is no doubt a better bike by far, however not even close to that statement.

A good H2 will eat it a SOHC 750 (still will) and they came out a year before the Z1 900.

In 69 the H1 500 ran 12.4 sec or so and the 69 CB 750 ran in the 13s.

rt

The Norton was lighter and faster too.  Well until it broke down it was.

[Magilla]

The finniest thing about this thread is how hot tempered some of the die hard Honda guys get. The say stuff like;

"This bike is the best bike ever made.  It had nothing that could be improved.  It was the fastest, lightest, most agile, best at going slow, compact, large, long distance, commuter, least expensive, magic, super, foldable, waterproof, bullet proof, laser beam proof, blah, blah blah EVER MADE!!!!"

Was it the best "overall" bike of the time, based on price, reliability, power and comfort?  Yes it was.  Did it change the motorcycling world?  Yes it did.  Was it perfect?  No it was not.  After that last statement I will need to seek witness protection.

Some of the purists seem to think its sacrilegious to suggest that there was any way this bike could have been made better.  Are they telling us that if Honda had a large potential customer base for a bike that cost $5000 (in 1969) that Honda could not have found ways to make this bike better with the extra budget?  that is horsesh!t.

This post was just trying to make your imagination work.  A "what if" scenario.  In Sophies choice she had to chose between her mothers life and her daughters life.  A tough choice for anyone but here's the thing Honda Purists of the World, it was a MOVIE.  It was not real.  This thread is a fictitious scenario.  Its not real.  So relax, take a breath and enjoy your bikes.  No one is telling you that they are not awesome.

We all have them because we are fans.

[70CB750]

I am afraid Sophie's choice was based on part of the history that was real enough for most people.

The story itself could be fiction, real life events and worse were not.

[Geeto67]

if you want to see how Honda would have made the cb750 better - go ride a 1982 cb900F. For the DOHCs they fixed every single issue people had with the SOHC bike as a performance motorcycle (and introduced new ones). The bikes are so night and day different in terms of ride quality, size, etc...but still you can trace direct lineage back. I would have suggest the 1100F because it makes 123hp and that's hard to argue with but the one I owned that ran threw a lot of heat at the rider. The 900F is the perfect balance GT motorcycle for the 80's and the point where you can say honda first started building modern motorcycles (actually the 1979 cb750F feels the same way but the 900's extra power is really really sweet).

[Geeto67]

Hey Magilla, you mentioned the Nazi's (sophie's choice is about the nazi's) so accoring to Godwins law you lose (even if you are right and you are).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

[Magilla]

I am afraid Sophie's choice was based on part of the history that was real enough for most people.

The story itself could be fiction, real life events and worse were not.

Good point.  Glad you made it.

[scottly]

Corvairs never had fuel injection, but some Corvettes did. (DFI still uses a computer, Lucky. )
Cars had disc brakes as early as 1902, however, they only came into common use on American cars in the 60's, starting with the Studebaker Avanti in 1963. The Honda 750 was the first mass produced motorcycle to employ a disc brake, but they had been used on racing bikes previously.
Overhead cams were in use on aircraft in World War 1, and in cars and motorcycles before the 750, even by Honda.
What could Honda have done better? As Frank said, the front brake was a poor design from the start. The bike was much heavier than it needed to be; crap, a K7 exhaust system is about 40 pounds!! By contrast, my '70s era aftermarket 4-1 weighs about 14 pounds, and is still intact, unlike the K7 mufflers which were rotted out by the early '80s.

[dave500]

heres lucky just brushing up on his honda history!

[ekpent]

I always thought that picture was TT Dave 

[Wobbly]

The year the CB 750 was introduced was 1969. Some seem to forget this. The 750 Four was the first inline-four-cylinder mass produced motorcycle. It was truly revolutionary and is the bases for most motorcycles we see on the road today, incl. my BMW S1000RR. But that's not all: it was also the very first street motorcycle that introduced a hydraulic disc brake while all others would use a drum brake in the front. What is most amazing though is the fact, that despite all the innovations, the Honda's reliability is legendary (that is were it greatly differs from my RR were horsepower seems to be an excuse for everything).

[Magilla]

Hey Magilla, you mentioned the Nazi's (sophie's choice is about the nazi's) so accoring to Godwins law you lose (even if you are right and you are).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

I didn't mention the Nazi's.  I was simply making a point about something being hypothetical.  Perhaps I should have picked a different movie.  Maybe the scene in Pulp fiction where Bruce Willis goes back in to save Marcelus Wallace. Or even the more famous Ezekiel 25:17, the path of the righteous man is beset upon all side by . . . . .   

[Wobbly]

unlike the K7 mufflers which were rotted out by the early '80s.

Mine were not. Perhaps, actually riding the bike on a regular basis had helped. And I would drive mine through the winter.
As far as the weight goes: I prefer all the chrome parts over painted plastic, and I love the four exhausts. If you wanted to put it on a diet, there was such a huge variety of possibilities and an incredible offerings of aftermarket parts to turn it into a lighter café racer or, an even heavier touring bike, or a chopper with even more chrome.

[ekpent]

Along with all the other new stuff the Honda 750 had for 69/70 the electric start was a big deal back then.

[Deltarider]

I didn't mention the Nazi's.  I was simply making a point about something being hypothetical.  Perhaps I should have picked a different movie.

Yeah, Don't Mention the War.
Don't Mention the War - Fawlty Towers - BBC

[Deltarider]

Another question is where did Soichiro get his idea?
Everytime I have a look under the bonnet of a Mini, I think that setup of engine and transmission must have been his main example.

[Geeto67]

The year the CB 750 was introduced was 1969. Some seem to forget this. The 750 Four was the first inline-four-cylinder mass produced motorcycle.

No you are wrong. It was the first TRANSVERSE inline four mass produced street motorcycle, but many makes like Indian and Henderson had mass produced inline fours dating back to the 19-teens.

A transverse four wasn't anything new in racing in the 1950's and 60's. the remarkable thing Honda did was make a reliable street bike based on GP technology.

[Geeto67]

Corvairs never had fuel injection, but some Corvettes did. (DFI still uses a computer, Lucky. )

Original corvette fuel injection (1957-1965) was full mechanical. It used a mech fuel pump, distribution block, and injection spider. Hilborn injection is also mechanical, doesn't use a computer, and they even made them for Honda 750s.

Injection just means you are squirting directly into the intake runner. Computer or no.

[Bailgang]

I just wish Honda had made a transmission that wasn't so clunky as it is on my F2 but that could be because a PO may have beat the daylights out of it.

[754]

Honda brought semi exotic to the masses at an affordable price in 69.

..NOBODY..and I mean NOBODY..did that before then..



Its easy to forget or dismiss what a huge deal it was at that time...and a bit harder  to comprehend, the total impact. .........if you were not born yet..

[cabrala]

And how about in the years following 1969? I assume Honda woke up the competition? Did these bikes continue to stay cutting edge in all departments, or did they become complacent (as someone mentioned in an earlier post)?

I hope that my questioning is understood as a pure curiosity of the time. I know that the bikes were and still are incredible pieces of machinery that garner an amazing amount of interest worldwide. It's obvious that Honda did enough right to make that last statement possible...

[lucky]

And how about in the years following 1969? I assume Honda woke up the competition? Did these bikes continue to stay cutting edge in all departments, or did they become complacent (as someone mentioned in an earlier post)?

I hope that my questioning is understood as a pure curiosity of the time. I know that the bikes were and still are incredible pieces of machinery that garner an amazing amount of interest worldwide. It's obvious that Honda did enough right to make that last statement possible...

After the introduction of the CB750 none of the companies were complacent including Honda.
It started a healthy competition amongst all manufacturers.

And remember Honda had the CB125,CB160,CB350,and CB450 so all of their ducks were already in a row. The other manufacturers had to work harder.
All customer budgets and ages could be accommodated, and they were all offered in multiple colors unlike now you only get 1 or 2 colors to choose fromIn 2004 The big Kawasaki cruisers eliminated two color bikes and went with a single color.
It ruined the styling making the bike look fatter and boring.

[754]

In 72 they offered about32 models