Author Topic: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Rebuilt to NEW OLD STOCK -- PIX ON PAGE 50  (Read 242993 times)

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Online HondaMan

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #375 on: February 23, 2014, 07:41:10 PM »
Of the gears, this was the only one I was concerned about:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=126735.0;attach=246876;image

This is the C5 gear, the first one out of the countershaft hole. It's mate, the C2 "female" side, has slots to accept the dogs. I see some real shiny rounded edges on it in the photo (hard to tell from pix unless they are close-up and well-lit), and this one is the worst in these gearboxes.

The way to tell if it has an issue is: look closely at the dogs to see how far they engage to the mating gear. It must be 3mm MORE than the rounded edge, or it will have a tendency to jump out of 2nd gear when hot and under power.

The "cheap fix" back in the day was to set the C2 (female) gear flat on a mill and touch up the working edges of the 3 slots to a nice 90 degrees on their working edges, to reduce their taper. This taper is what tries to squirt the dogs back out of the slots under power, especially if the inside of the C2 gear is worn a little, letting the gear tilt away from the C5 dogs when under power. The more complete "fix" is to have the slots back-cut in a slight taper and the dogs similarly tapered to match. This method was called "pull cutting" back then, as you needed to only partly engage them and when the clutch was let out it finished the shift itself. For racing, this was a must past 10k miles or so, but for street use, not so much. It can tend to make the shifting notchy, especially when cold.

In the end, the worst that can happen with badly rounded dogs here is: you may find the need to 'skip' 2nd gear on occasion. I know many 750 riders (tourer-commuter) who did this for years after they bent the L fork in a street contest, but didn't want to tear it all down to fix it. On my own 750, when I got the new oils w/o zinc in them (since 2005 or so), I had to do this in 100+ degree days of traffic myself, even though the dogs on mine are not very worn.

On the flip side, I've also seen round-dog gears that were "fixed" by installing a straight (or re-straightened, but not by me) L shift fork, as the new fork just inserted the gear dogs deeply enough that it passed the rounded edges. This is an adequate fix, even at that. Often the L fork gets a bit bent and begins the whole rounding process by inserting less than 3mm of dog: just check yours with the cases open to make sure the dogs are fully meshing when 2nd gear is being made.

It's pretty easy to measure the mesh depth: spin the C2 gear by hand while slowly turning the drum, until the dogs begin hitting the slots. stop and note the distance between the gears. Then finish the shift and measure how far the C5 continued to move: that's the total insertion depth. Then, estimate the dogs' rounded edge depth (like, 0.5mm or 1.0mm) and subtract that from the total insertion depth. If you get less than 3.0mm mesh depth here, they need some help to be solid. ;)
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Offline edwardmorris

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #376 on: February 24, 2014, 08:55:19 PM »
Thanks for the detailed post Mark, I will definitely check it out once I start putting it together (soon hopefully). In the mean time, I'm trying to procure something in better shape than these.

Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #377 on: February 28, 2014, 08:32:21 PM »
Edward ,here you go

backside

its mate

other side

another

again

last one

Let me know ,I sell all gears $25.00 each plus shipping,will ship for $12.95 Medium Flat Rate Box, so $62.95 total.  ;D Bill
Anyone else needing gears, forks, drums, shafts, got em all! ;D 8) Bill
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Over 35 years of experience working on vintage motorcycles, with a speciality in Honda SOHC/4 with a focus on the CB750 and other models as well from 1966 - 1985.
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1993 HRC RS125 | 1984 NS400R | 1974 Honda CB750/836cc (Calendar Girl) | 1972 CB 500/550 Yoshi Kitted 590cc | 1965 Honda CB450 Black Bomber | 1972 Suzuki T350 | 1973 88cc | Z50/Falcons Pit Bike | 1967 CA100| 1974 CB350 (400F motor)...and more.
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Offline tweakin

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #378 on: February 28, 2014, 08:34:40 PM »
If Ed doesn't take them, I will...  Always good to have solid spares...

Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #379 on: February 28, 2014, 09:39:31 PM »
K, you next in line! Got more, if he wants them. 8)
BentON Racing Website
OEM Parts | Service | Custom Builds
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Over 35 years of experience working on vintage motorcycles, with a speciality in Honda SOHC/4 with a focus on the CB750 and other models as well from 1966 - 1985.
______________________________________
1993 HRC RS125 | 1984 NS400R | 1974 Honda CB750/836cc (Calendar Girl) | 1972 CB 500/550 Yoshi Kitted 590cc | 1965 Honda CB450 Black Bomber | 1972 Suzuki T350 | 1973 88cc | Z50/Falcons Pit Bike | 1967 CA100| 1974 CB350 (400F motor)...and more.
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See our latest build 'Captain Marvel' CLICK HERE

Offline edwardmorris

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #380 on: February 28, 2014, 09:56:52 PM »
Thanks Bill, I'll take them, PM sent!

Offline 70CB750

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #381 on: March 01, 2014, 03:30:25 AM »

In the end, the worst that can happen with badly rounded dogs here is: you may find the need to 'skip' 2nd gear on occasion.


That's me, I don't use 2nd on the K0 anymore, it jerks too much.  Just holding tight till I have the F running to tear into K0.
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Offline Powderman

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #382 on: March 01, 2014, 11:04:12 AM »
Here are a couple of switch housings I restored ( www.CreativeCandy.org) for Ed. Tuscan Black Matte with Flame Red and Gloss White. Everything is powder on these. Don't know why pic is distorted, click on pic for proper orientation.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 11:50:01 AM by Powderman »

Offline seanbarney41

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #383 on: March 01, 2014, 11:08:40 AM »
cool...how did you do the lettering in powder?  What do you charge for something like that?
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline edwardmorris

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #384 on: March 01, 2014, 11:10:36 AM »
Here are a couple of switch housings I restored ( www.CreativeCandy.org) for Ed. Tuscan Black Matte with Flame Red and Gloss White. Everything is powder on these. Don't know why pic is distorted, click on pic for proper orientation.

Thanks Marc! I'm blown away! Can't wait for these babies to return home so I can finish rebuilding them.

Offline Powderman

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #385 on: March 01, 2014, 11:11:01 AM »
cool...how did you do the lettering in powder?  What do you charge for something like that?
Trade secret. Actually I just "spoon" the powder into the recesses and wipe it off with a damp finger. I get $35 each to do this.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 11:45:49 AM by Powderman »

Offline seanbarney41

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #386 on: March 01, 2014, 11:31:30 AM »
cool...how did you do the lettering in powder?  What do you charge for something like that?
Trade secret. Actually I just "spoon" the powder into the recesses and wipe it off with a damp finger. I get $35 a pair to do this.
not bad at all...I got a metric #$%* ton of ugly faded ones sitting around the shop.  Still can't convince myself to put forth much effort to have a nice set...but if I ever do, I'll be calling you.  Nice work.
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline Powderman

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #387 on: March 01, 2014, 11:47:36 AM »
cool...how did you do the lettering in powder?  What do you charge for something like that?
Trade secret. Actually I just "spoon" the powder into the recesses and wipe it off with a damp finger. I get $35 a pair to do this.
not bad at all...I got a metric #$%* ton of ugly faded ones sitting around the shop.  Still can't convince myself to put forth much effort to have a nice set...but if I ever do, I'll be calling you.  Nice work.
I miss typed, they are $35 each (housing), not pair (unless you consider the 2 pieces a pair).

Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #388 on: March 01, 2014, 01:07:49 PM »
Nice, damn Ed, we need to get you a better red kill button! I'll check, Bill
BentON Racing Website
OEM Parts | Service | Custom Builds
BentON Racing Facebook
Over 35 years of experience working on vintage motorcycles, with a speciality in Honda SOHC/4 with a focus on the CB750 and other models as well from 1966 - 1985.
______________________________________
1993 HRC RS125 | 1984 NS400R | 1974 Honda CB750/836cc (Calendar Girl) | 1972 CB 500/550 Yoshi Kitted 590cc | 1965 Honda CB450 Black Bomber | 1972 Suzuki T350 | 1973 88cc | Z50/Falcons Pit Bike | 1967 CA100| 1974 CB350 (400F motor)...and more.
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See our latest build 'Captain Marvel' CLICK HERE

Offline edwardmorris

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #389 on: March 01, 2014, 01:10:36 PM »
Nice, damn Ed, we need to get you a better red kill button! I'll check, Bill
LOL that would be great actually, would save me from buying a can of red vinyl dye for one little dinker. And thanks!

Offline Kickstart

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #390 on: March 01, 2014, 03:33:04 PM »
Wow... those look really nice Powderman.

Do you also do master cylinders... is there a powder that holds up well to brakefluid?
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Offline Powderman

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #391 on: March 01, 2014, 03:38:09 PM »
Wow... those look really nice Powderman.

Do you also do master cylinders... is there a powder that holds up well to brakefluid?

Powder is not affected by brake fluid. Yes, I do master cylinders.

Offline calj737

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #392 on: March 01, 2014, 04:31:31 PM »
Hijack alert: Powderman, do you have means for anodizing also?
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Offline Powderman

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #393 on: March 01, 2014, 04:35:35 PM »
Hijack alert: Powderman, do you have means for anodizing also?

Not yet,but I'm working on it.

Offline edwardmorris

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #394 on: March 01, 2014, 06:20:35 PM »
Hijack alert: Powderman, do you have means for anodizing also?
Don't mind the hijack, ALWAYS looking for things to learn.

Offline Medyo Bastos

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #395 on: March 01, 2014, 06:30:42 PM »
K, you next in line! Got more, if he wants them. 8)

are these new parts???

Offline Medyo Bastos

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #396 on: March 01, 2014, 06:32:41 PM »
Wow... those look really nice Powderman.

Do you also do master cylinders... is there a powder that holds up well to brakefluid?

Powder is not affected by brake fluid. Yes, I do master cylinders.

you have some masters ready to go?  i need a gloss black one... please pm me directly so i can keep off this fine thread.

Offline Powderman

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #397 on: March 01, 2014, 06:39:41 PM »
Wow... those look really nice Powderman.

Do you also do master cylinders... is there a powder that holds up well to brake fluid
Powder is not affected by brake fluid. Yes, I do master cylinders.



you have some masters ready to go?  i need a gloss black one... please pm me directly so i can keep off this fine thread.


Sure, I keep one of every kind laying around waiting for you to order one, NOT. I do custom coating, you want yours done, send it to me and I will coat it any color you want.

Offline edwardmorris

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #398 on: March 03, 2014, 10:21:05 PM »
Still waiting on a few things to show up, had to deal with some snow yet again, and been racking up crazy hours at work. Just found out I'm gonna be needing a new roof this year :( Freakin chimney started leaking by the boot and is dripping all the way down to my basement ugh.

Been making time in small chunks as usual, so no major update unfortunately. I'm trying to clean out the hardware (bolts/nuts) and given how compulsive I get, taking a wire wheel to each tiny piece seems extreme. Any tips on cleaning small stuff, especially the gunk from the threads that has caked on for 40+ years. There are some pieces with brake fluid caking too. All of this has survived simple green HD pro and mineral spirit baths, so I may need to go a bit tougher on these. Wirewheel does seem to clean them squeaky though :-\ but would be too much a pain to clean every little bit.

Suggestions to simplify this?

Offline calj737

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #399 on: March 04, 2014, 04:07:54 AM »
Outside the methods you're describing, the only other that comes to mind is dropping them in a Media Tumbler. Do you happen to reload or know someone who does? If so, perhaps you can toss a few in to try.

Have you encountered any rusting back of the bolts after putting a wire wheel to them? I'd be afraid you're removing the plating (naturally going to happen after this much time and cleaning) and your new shiny bolts would rust back up. Perhaps you're treating them for re-installation?

Project looks outstanding and a very thorough restoration!
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis