Author Topic: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Rebuilt to NEW OLD STOCK -- PIX ON PAGE 50  (Read 245104 times)

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Offline jerry h

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #350 on: February 17, 2014, 10:04:09 PM »
Hi Ed,
Sorry I didn't go back to re-read everything, but is that bearing bad, or do you have some reason to think its bad?   I know you spent some money to get the special bearing grooves cut etc, but sometimes one can do more damage fixing stuff that's not broken.  Don't ask me how I know this. ;D
"It is not the critic who counts, the credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose hands are covered with grease and oil."

K2 http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,105097.0.html

Offline Kickstart

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #351 on: February 17, 2014, 11:34:14 PM »
EDIT:   Ah... here you go.  CycleRanger has a post with pictures on how he removed his with a GearPuller:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=97244.0
Thanks Chris, I did see that thread during my hours of searching, and the only problem with that approach is that I already have the cases apart and blasted clean. I suppose I have no other way than to button it back up with the main shaft in and try using a gear puller. Again, thanks for the reply!

Lots of snow yet again, and lots of work, still tearing down and cleaning itty bitty parts here and there as I find time in between. Painfully mind numbing tasks (especially cleaning small parts and electrical stuff), but they're coming off the to do list so no complaints.

I don't think you need to put it back in the case to use the puller... try to find a large socket with an OD that's about the same as the primary gear spline section... but smaller than the basket spline/teeth.  Then put the puller on that to push against.

At least, that sounds good in my head... not sure how easy that would be to do :)
- Chris
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Offline edwardmorris

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #352 on: February 22, 2014, 05:15:14 PM »
OK, so few updates to post, I'll start with the micro polished crank. I took it to the shop and they were able to use an electric impact to get the stubborn bolt out, then Gordon's rotor puller worked like a charm to get the rotor off. Took it apart, everything looks good, little to no wear, but that's my novice eye.

Offline edwardmorris

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #353 on: February 22, 2014, 05:19:14 PM »
Had to use the big fat impact driver to get it apart, and notice the flat hammered marks on the countersunk screws. Do I need to impact tighten them? I have it put back together after cleaning.

I asked my machinist if he had a good bearing puller that he could loan me, and he just offered to pull them out for me. I told him about the stuck clutch bell and he said he had tools to get it out. And sure enough, I have it all apart now. How do these gears and dogs look?

Offline edwardmorris

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #354 on: February 22, 2014, 05:21:32 PM »
More. Needle rollers are gone too.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 05:25:40 PM by edwardmorris »

Offline edwardmorris

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #355 on: February 22, 2014, 05:24:22 PM »
Cleaned up the kickstarter and final drives.

While cleaning the alternator, I noticed pic3, is this bolt made of plastic???

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #356 on: February 22, 2014, 10:59:11 PM »
Had to use the big fat impact driver to get it apart, and notice the flat hammered marks on the countersunk screws. Do I need to impact tighten them? I have it put back together after cleaning.

I asked my machinist if he had a good bearing puller that he could loan me, and he just offered to pull them out for me. I told him about the stuck clutch bell and he said he had tools to get it out. And sure enough, I have it all apart now. How do these gears and dogs look?

Those gears look happy, no troubles there. :)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #357 on: February 22, 2014, 11:03:53 PM »
Cleaned up the kickstarter and final drives.

While cleaning the alternator, I noticed pic3, is this bolt made of plastic???

Are you referring to the little plastic "locker" bit on it? Some of the bikes have a little nylon lock nib bored into the side of the bolt. These are sort of like the nylon-lined "locking nuts" you can get for bolts. This feature is interestingly on some of the engines and not others, over their years. The early sandcast engines had some history of loosened bolts that led to electric starter problems (no grip) which then damaged the tapered end of the crank. This was an expensive warranty repair, which led to bigger bolts, then bolts that were Loctited in real tight, and once in a while, bolts with the nylon lock nib in the side of it. That's why they are so #$@! hard to get out.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Online Terry in Australia

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #358 on: February 23, 2014, 12:28:36 AM »
Looks fine Ed, as far as your gears go, they look good, but there's no real way of saying that the dogs are OK unless you've ridden it, as they wear pretty evenly. If it continually slips out of gear under power, they're worn out.

You can get them under-cut by most good machine shops, here's a youtube vid for your entertainment pleasure............ ;D

Under-cutting dog gears.
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So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

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Offline RRRToolSolutions

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #359 on: February 23, 2014, 04:45:35 AM »
Ed, those dogs look good to me as well. I don't see rounding, chips, or wear on any of them. Undercutting has it's ugly side too. Forget about finding neutral and shifts require even more pressure to get the dogs to turn loose. The same angles that "pull" the gears (dog ears and holes) together now want to keep them there. That slight friction between the clutch plates caused by the oil transmits small amounts of energy to the gears to load them against the dogs. For the street and non-race use, I would never again have a transmission undercut. Only if every 1/10th second counts and you don't mind killing the engine to find neutral does undercutting really make sense for me. Count on increased wear of the shifter, the drum, and the shift forks too - more force means more wear.

Things are looking good! Gordon
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Offline edwardmorris

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #360 on: February 23, 2014, 09:49:12 AM »
Are you referring to the little plastic "locker" bit on it? Some of the bikes have a little nylon lock nib bored into the side of the bolt. These are sort of like the nylon-lined "locking nuts" you can get for bolts. This feature is interestingly on some of the engines and not others, over their years. The early sandcast engines had some history of loosened bolts that led to electric starter problems (no grip) which then damaged the tapered end of the crank. This was an expensive warranty repair, which led to bigger bolts, then bolts that were Loctited in real tight, and once in a while, bolts with the nylon lock nib in the side of it. That's why they are so #$@! hard to get out.
Yikes! It makes more sense that its a nib, I thought the whole bolt was plastic/nylon because at the point of the nib, the zinc plating is starting to peel out, much like chrome in a can spray for plastic toys does. I'll have to remember to tighten this back up lie a #$@! as well, to the right torque.

Offline edwardmorris

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #361 on: February 23, 2014, 10:11:53 AM »
As for the gears, thank you all for the input.

Here are some pix of the countershaft (page 9 of this build thread)

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=126735.200

Please review again since its been a while. I am not sure if I need to get it undercut, especially since the cost is prohibitive to just do 1-2 undercutting. I don't plan on racing so I'd rather save the cash for something else.

I'm very glad that the mainshaft looks good (here) and if the countershaft ones look good too, then I'm going to skip the undercutting. Hopefully by using the right weight oil + additives, the shifting will be smooth for a daily rider.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #362 on: February 23, 2014, 07:41:10 PM »
Of the gears, this was the only one I was concerned about:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=126735.0;attach=246876;image

This is the C5 gear, the first one out of the countershaft hole. It's mate, the C2 "female" side, has slots to accept the dogs. I see some real shiny rounded edges on it in the photo (hard to tell from pix unless they are close-up and well-lit), and this one is the worst in these gearboxes.

The way to tell if it has an issue is: look closely at the dogs to see how far they engage to the mating gear. It must be 3mm MORE than the rounded edge, or it will have a tendency to jump out of 2nd gear when hot and under power.

The "cheap fix" back in the day was to set the C2 (female) gear flat on a mill and touch up the working edges of the 3 slots to a nice 90 degrees on their working edges, to reduce their taper. This taper is what tries to squirt the dogs back out of the slots under power, especially if the inside of the C2 gear is worn a little, letting the gear tilt away from the C5 dogs when under power. The more complete "fix" is to have the slots back-cut in a slight taper and the dogs similarly tapered to match. This method was called "pull cutting" back then, as you needed to only partly engage them and when the clutch was let out it finished the shift itself. For racing, this was a must past 10k miles or so, but for street use, not so much. It can tend to make the shifting notchy, especially when cold.

In the end, the worst that can happen with badly rounded dogs here is: you may find the need to 'skip' 2nd gear on occasion. I know many 750 riders (tourer-commuter) who did this for years after they bent the L fork in a street contest, but didn't want to tear it all down to fix it. On my own 750, when I got the new oils w/o zinc in them (since 2005 or so), I had to do this in 100+ degree days of traffic myself, even though the dogs on mine are not very worn.

On the flip side, I've also seen round-dog gears that were "fixed" by installing a straight (or re-straightened, but not by me) L shift fork, as the new fork just inserted the gear dogs deeply enough that it passed the rounded edges. This is an adequate fix, even at that. Often the L fork gets a bit bent and begins the whole rounding process by inserting less than 3mm of dog: just check yours with the cases open to make sure the dogs are fully meshing when 2nd gear is being made.

It's pretty easy to measure the mesh depth: spin the C2 gear by hand while slowly turning the drum, until the dogs begin hitting the slots. stop and note the distance between the gears. Then finish the shift and measure how far the C5 continued to move: that's the total insertion depth. Then, estimate the dogs' rounded edge depth (like, 0.5mm or 1.0mm) and subtract that from the total insertion depth. If you get less than 3.0mm mesh depth here, they need some help to be solid. ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline edwardmorris

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #363 on: February 24, 2014, 08:55:19 PM »
Thanks for the detailed post Mark, I will definitely check it out once I start putting it together (soon hopefully). In the mean time, I'm trying to procure something in better shape than these.

Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #364 on: February 28, 2014, 08:32:21 PM »
Edward ,here you go

backside

its mate

other side

another

again

last one

Let me know ,I sell all gears $25.00 each plus shipping,will ship for $12.95 Medium Flat Rate Box, so $62.95 total.  ;D Bill
Anyone else needing gears, forks, drums, shafts, got em all! ;D 8) Bill
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Over 35 years of experience working on vintage motorcycles, with a speciality in Honda SOHC/4 with a focus on the CB750 and other models as well from 1966 - 1985.
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1993 HRC RS125 | 1984 NS400R | 1974 Honda CB750/836cc (Calendar Girl) | 1972 CB 500/550 Yoshi Kitted 590cc | 1965 Honda CB450 Black Bomber | 1972 Suzuki T350 | 1973 88cc | Z50/Falcons Pit Bike | 1967 CA100| 1974 CB350 (400F motor)...and more.
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Offline tweakin

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #365 on: February 28, 2014, 08:34:40 PM »
If Ed doesn't take them, I will...  Always good to have solid spares...

Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #366 on: February 28, 2014, 09:39:31 PM »
K, you next in line! Got more, if he wants them. 8)
BentON Racing Website
OEM Parts | Service | Custom Builds
BentON Racing Facebook
Over 35 years of experience working on vintage motorcycles, with a speciality in Honda SOHC/4 with a focus on the CB750 and other models as well from 1966 - 1985.
______________________________________
1993 HRC RS125 | 1984 NS400R | 1974 Honda CB750/836cc (Calendar Girl) | 1972 CB 500/550 Yoshi Kitted 590cc | 1965 Honda CB450 Black Bomber | 1972 Suzuki T350 | 1973 88cc | Z50/Falcons Pit Bike | 1967 CA100| 1974 CB350 (400F motor)...and more.
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See our latest build 'Captain Marvel' CLICK HERE

Offline edwardmorris

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #367 on: February 28, 2014, 09:56:52 PM »
Thanks Bill, I'll take them, PM sent!

Offline 70CB750

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #368 on: March 01, 2014, 03:30:25 AM »

In the end, the worst that can happen with badly rounded dogs here is: you may find the need to 'skip' 2nd gear on occasion.


That's me, I don't use 2nd on the K0 anymore, it jerks too much.  Just holding tight till I have the F running to tear into K0.
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Offline Powderman

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #369 on: March 01, 2014, 11:04:12 AM »
Here are a couple of switch housings I restored ( www.CreativeCandy.org) for Ed. Tuscan Black Matte with Flame Red and Gloss White. Everything is powder on these. Don't know why pic is distorted, click on pic for proper orientation.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 11:50:01 AM by Powderman »

Offline seanbarney41

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #370 on: March 01, 2014, 11:08:40 AM »
cool...how did you do the lettering in powder?  What do you charge for something like that?
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline edwardmorris

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #371 on: March 01, 2014, 11:10:36 AM »
Here are a couple of switch housings I restored ( www.CreativeCandy.org) for Ed. Tuscan Black Matte with Flame Red and Gloss White. Everything is powder on these. Don't know why pic is distorted, click on pic for proper orientation.

Thanks Marc! I'm blown away! Can't wait for these babies to return home so I can finish rebuilding them.

Offline Powderman

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #372 on: March 01, 2014, 11:11:01 AM »
cool...how did you do the lettering in powder?  What do you charge for something like that?
Trade secret. Actually I just "spoon" the powder into the recesses and wipe it off with a damp finger. I get $35 each to do this.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 11:45:49 AM by Powderman »

Offline seanbarney41

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #373 on: March 01, 2014, 11:31:30 AM »
cool...how did you do the lettering in powder?  What do you charge for something like that?
Trade secret. Actually I just "spoon" the powder into the recesses and wipe it off with a damp finger. I get $35 a pair to do this.
not bad at all...I got a metric #$%* ton of ugly faded ones sitting around the shop.  Still can't convince myself to put forth much effort to have a nice set...but if I ever do, I'll be calling you.  Nice work.
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline Powderman

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Re: 1972 CB750 Four K2 -- Project "Ice Cream"-- ENGINE TEARDOWN
« Reply #374 on: March 01, 2014, 11:47:36 AM »
cool...how did you do the lettering in powder?  What do you charge for something like that?
Trade secret. Actually I just "spoon" the powder into the recesses and wipe it off with a damp finger. I get $35 a pair to do this.
not bad at all...I got a metric #$%* ton of ugly faded ones sitting around the shop.  Still can't convince myself to put forth much effort to have a nice set...but if I ever do, I'll be calling you.  Nice work.
I miss typed, they are $35 each (housing), not pair (unless you consider the 2 pieces a pair).