Author Topic: Honing  (Read 16489 times)

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Offline lucky

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Re: Honing
« Reply #50 on: September 18, 2013, 01:02:05 PM »
When you take apart an engine the rings can get moved and that IS the problem.
See the rings are not exactly round.

That is the reason they usually do not seat properly when you put the old rings back into the same cylinders.
They fit  but not perfectly because they are not perfectly round
Remember that the piston ring has a gap and that  the two ends spring outwards
So it does not really make a perfect circle.

When you put the rings back into the cylinder one of the sets of rings may be covering the position where the ring above or below it had its gap positioned.
And that top compression ring is critical.

IT is those minute details that matter.
With your eyes it looks round but is not perfect.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Honing
« Reply #51 on: September 18, 2013, 01:33:14 PM »
I just don't see the point of adding friction (honing) to parts that have properly worn in to fit each other.  If they are within spec and properly married, adding a floozy or back door man isn't going to help the marriage.

Airplane engines routinely run at 75% power for hours.  I had a Lycoming that developed excessive valve wobble.   Must pull off the jugs to fit new guides and recondition the valve face and seat and the head is integral with the cylinder.  Keep the same jug with the respective piston/rings and reassemble.  The compression came right back with the valvework, and I flew that engine another 500 hrs, good power and low oil consumption.

I recall asking the mech if he was going to hone the cylinder walls.  "Only if you want new rings", he said.
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Offline lucky

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Re: Honing
« Reply #52 on: September 18, 2013, 03:28:40 PM »
If you're re-using the same rings and going into the same bores (un-honed) then absoltely nothing has changed. Why in the heck would you need to hone the cylinder walls to get the rings to seal if they are already sealing fine? Seems like a load of horse crap to me.

The honing leaves a semi rough finish to create some friction with the rings. The friction allows the rings to wear into the cylinders (somewhat like lapping) giving both surfaces very close to the same shape. For new rings I think it is necessary but if you haven't changed the rings then whhhyyyy?!

Also, I'm almost positive that the rings will rotate within the cylinders after the piston makes its several million cycles up and down. So I'm also on the bandwagon of ring gap spacing is a load of crap as well. Having too small of a ring gap however is very very bad. Things expand with heat and if that ring gap closes up and continues to expand it has no where to go but out into the cylinder wall. There will be a LOT of excess friction and heat and you will score the cylinder walls and possibly seize the engine.

IW

The only way you can find out if you do not like to read is to just put the engine together with old rings and not hone it. Then see what the results are.
Then you will know by experience.


Offline 74750k4

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Re: Honing
« Reply #53 on: September 18, 2013, 03:36:48 PM »
I just don't see the point of adding friction (honing) to parts that have properly worn in to fit each other.  If they are within spec and properly married, adding a floozy or back door man isn't going to help the marriage.

Airplane engines routinely run at 75% power for hours.  I had a Lycoming that developed excessive valve wobble.   Must pull off the jugs to fit new guides and recondition the valve face and seat and the head is integral with the cylinder.  Keep the same jug with the respective piston/rings and reassemble.  The compression came right back with the valvework, and I flew that engine another 500 hrs, good power and low oil consumption.

I recall asking the mech if he was going to hone the cylinder walls.  "Only if you want new rings", he said.

Well, that certainly says something...   no qualified av mechanic is going to be putting putting his livlihood at risk recommending that procedure, unless he was actually hinting a recommendation of new rings? Flying a smoking plane ain't pretty to look at.

 

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Honing
« Reply #54 on: September 18, 2013, 03:49:07 PM »
Well, that certainly says something...   no qualified av mechanic is going to be putting putting his livlihood at risk recommending that procedure, unless he was actually hinting a recommendation of new rings? Flying a smoking plane ain't pretty to look at.
They do it all the time at air shows!  And, the crowd goes Ahhhhh!

Annual inspections include a leak down test on all engine cylinders.  Each cylinder is pressurized and the meter reads what the cylinder holds.  In this case the reading was low.  And you could hear the air escaping into the exhaust.  So, the wobble test was performed, showing the guides were worn, which screwed up the seating area of the valves.

He was not hinting at replacing the rings as during the leak down test, no leakage or air  sounds were coming from the crankcase breather.  This indicated good ring seal.  Indeed, after the valve job, the compression came way up on all the cylinders.  Problem solved, wallet drained.  ;D

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Offline Dave Voss

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Re: Honing
« Reply #55 on: September 18, 2013, 04:59:24 PM »
I just don't see the point of adding friction (honing) to parts that have properly worn in to fit each other. 

Normally I would agree, but in this case I think there may be some question as to whether or not the engine was conditioned properly 3000 miles ago and whether or not proper wear-in has indeed occurred, and now is an opportunity to make a correction (in the form of adding a light amount of cross hatch) to put the engine in the condition that it probably should be in at this point in time (post break-in) for the sake of taking a best-odds approach to achieving maximum longevity.

The OP's discovery of no cross hatch after so few miles raised a flag, and prompted a question.  I understand that many (perhaps most) folks would choose to just leave it alone, especially if it required having to pay for the service, but for the do-it-yourself types that enjoy putting in the wrench time, its worth doing in my opinion.
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Offline thirsty 1

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Re: Honing
« Reply #56 on: September 18, 2013, 05:26:14 PM »
For those that don't know what a leak down tester looks like I've added a picture for ya.



Regulated air at 100 PSI with the piston at TDC is applied to the cylinder. The second gauge on the right shows you how much of that 100 PSI is held in the cylinder. The general premise is that it shows the condition of how the rings and valves are sealing. This is performed on the compression stroke. IE valves closed.

No crosshatch, Even for a engine that's been beat for 3k, seems to me to have premature wear.

OP, do you have any pics of said cylinders? And yes I do realize these are cast iron jugs with chrome rings running in them.

Edit:  This is done to all of the cylinders to ensure they are close to all the same. The test only gives you the relative condition of the engine. Much like a compression test will help you find a dead or dying hole.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 05:33:49 PM by thirsty 1 »
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Offline PeWe

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Re: Honing
« Reply #57 on: September 19, 2013, 03:40:47 AM »
I think it is a common advice to replace rings and hone the cylinders if the cylinder has been removed independent of how it look like. I have always thought that it is overkill.

After reading this thread full of experiences:
- Rings, pistons and cylinders OK with hone cross marks for lubrication: Just put everything together exactly as it was.
- Hone cylinders if there is no cross marks.

- New rings if damaged or the end gaps are too wide.
- Hone cylinders if rings are replaced.

Possible to keep rings, no hone when open the engine next time.

I have new pistons with new rings therefore Flex-hone (240grit).
I reused my old oil rings when the new pistons had the old 1 piece ring. My old 3 piece end gaps are within spec. Back to same cylinders as before but other pistons. I hope my engine will not smoke nothing else than rubber!

Edit: had to correct one misspelled word
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 03:26:02 AM by PeWe »
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Honing
« Reply #58 on: September 19, 2013, 09:16:59 AM »
The OP's discovery of no cross hatch after so few miles raised a flag, and prompted a question.  I understand that many (perhaps most) folks would choose to just leave it alone, especially if it required having to pay for the service, but for the do-it-yourself types that enjoy putting in the wrench time, its worth doing in my opinion.

There is a process called nitriding, that surface hardens steel.  This is applied to piston cylinders to make them wear far longer than steel untreated.  Hone marks in such cylinders last a very long time, with reports of 75,000 miles and the pattern can still be seen.  The nitriding process is only a surface treatment.  Boring a cylinder will remove all the nitriding, leaving softer steel to wear faster than it did when new.

It was my understanding that Honda had their cylinders nitrided.  But, I don't know that for certain.  If true, it would well explain why the cross hatch is not there, after an 836 kit was installed.

There is also the question of how deep the hone scratches were when new and how deep the scratches were made during the kit install.   Clearly deeper scratches would remain longer in a nitrided barrel, than shallower scratches made during the kit install.

With a harder surface, more aggressive grits can be used during the cross hatch process.  You wouldn't want to use such an aggressive grit (deeper scratches) with an un-nitrided barrel.

IF the barrels in question are wearing too fast, it would be measurable while there is access to them.  Roundness, metal loss, and cylinder taper can be determined before reassembly.  If determined to acceptable, and the rings weren't passing oil and holding compression before disassembly, put them back the way they came apart, I say.  It's what I would do, anyway.




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Offline KJ790

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Re: Honing
« Reply #59 on: September 19, 2013, 09:47:27 AM »
At bare minimum I would be measuring the cylinders for wear. If the cross-hatch is gone because of wear within 3000 miles then you are going to have an issue shortly if you simply reassemble it and run it.

In my experience, lack of visable cross-hatch that quickly is more often due to a glaze on the cylinder than to wear. This is evident when the bore dimension has not grown but the cross-hatch has vanished. I would advise against putting an engine together with glazed cylinders as well, but that is just me. As I mentioned earlier, Scotchbrite and some warm soapy water will normally remove glaze and bring the cross-hatch back.

Cross-hatch is there for more than just break-in, it is there to help hold oil on the cylinder walls for lubrication. If you have no visible cross-hatch then your engine is not in optimal condition. Why you would want to go through the work of tearing it down and not reassemble it with parts in questionable condition is beyond me. It is your engine, so you can do what you like with it.
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Offline crazypj

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Re: Honing
« Reply #60 on: September 19, 2013, 05:10:20 PM »
I don't even know how many engines I've built or re-built but as a professional motorcycle mechanic it's probably into the thousands over 44 yrs
Racing two stroke NEEDS rings at a regular (short) interval
racing four stroke (modified CB550, 600cc, etc) needs rings every year as it was never originally designed for 13,500rpm operation
As I said previously, just put it together and run it, with the cam your fitting blowby is going to be least of issues, keeping it over 8,000 rpm will probaly be much more difficult
You WILL need much better ignition system as stock cannot run over 11,000 rpm
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Offline 754

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Re: Honing
« Reply #61 on: September 19, 2013, 08:26:06 PM »
Re #50.ibelueve that is valid once out of round starts happening, but at 3k miles, probably not the case.

 I used to run the snot out of 754 motors figuring they wont last all that long with such abuse.. And they usually surprise me by staying intact. A long time.
 And I heard every story under the sun about my. Not running aircleaners..after a while i told people I think you are right..this 836 will maybe only go 25 years instaed of 26.5...

..your mileage and oil consumption may vary..

 If honda barrels are nitrided, the shop boring your cyliders would ask you for more money..than they do,  plus i think its like .030 -.040 deep in some applications..breaking thru it partially would not be a good surface to run on.
 A long time ago i got my barrels bored by a fellow with a bike cylinder boring machine. Many auto rebuilder shops have some form of that too. This is important when boring as you get a Round true hole.. Resulting in higher compression, better ring life.
 However, some shops recondition cylinders with honing equipment only.. While this can
Result in a very round hole it does not always..  And it gets worse if the operater is lazy, or in a hurry to make a higher profit, or incapable of turning out 4 close tolerance bores in one cylinder.. .

 So if you have a less than round hole, and re and re the piston and ring assembly, its less than ideal..
  Choose your cylinder borer carefully

..tommorow we can talk about bores changing as cylinders season, but its shuld not be a worry on our motors.

« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 08:44:37 PM by 754 »
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Re: Honing
« Reply #62 on: September 19, 2013, 09:53:24 PM »
Why hone?  Or are you swapping rings around?  The rings are already seated and 4 stroke engine rings rotate on pistons anyway, why would you take more material of the cylinder?

The rings do not rotate very much at all .
That is why when you put the engine together you space the rings 120ยบ apart.
The cylinder walls should at least have a hatch pattern with a dingle ball hone,minimum. IF you do not do that it will smoke.

"The rings do not rotate very much at all".  So your own statement admits they do rotate. This is just double talk. Ever think of running for office? :D

"The cylinder walls should at least have a hatch pattern with a dingle ball hone,minimum. IF you do not do that it will smoke"
 He did a cross hatch the first time. Why not give us some facts that we can look up and verify as to why it would smoke if he uses the same rings in the same hole with no other changes I'm open minded just back up what you say. Think about it all he did was take a part out and put it back in the same place. It is not like a crush washer that changes when you use it.


Offline Powderman

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Re: Honing
« Reply #63 on: September 19, 2013, 11:09:03 PM »
Because the gaps are only off by a little bit from where you installed them doesn't tell you anything at all. You don't know if that ring has rotated 700 times before landing where you think it is only off a little. Many engines have been disassembled and the ring gaps were all lined up and falsely accused of assembling that way and causing damage. This has been proven wrong. The difference I see between the cylinder and the ring is the cylinder is a set circumference and because there is a gap in the ring it is free to move when the tension changes through wear. It's the wearing of the ring that causes the gap to widen. It was always suspected that blowby and oil consumption was due to this when in fact it was cause by the loss of tension in the rings preventing it from sealing against the cylinder wall. Once the ring wears it is much easier for blowby and oil to get passed the ring and wall than to navigate through the maze of ring gaps.

Offline dave500

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Re: Honing
« Reply #64 on: September 20, 2013, 12:52:14 AM »
the actual rings static tension is minimal,pressure gets behind them via the gap and pushes it harder against the bore than its own tension does,loading an engine during break in helps this pressure seat the rings.

Offline crazypj

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Re: Honing
« Reply #65 on: September 20, 2013, 06:28:30 AM »
AFAIK Suzuki are the only manufacturer to give a free end gap to top 2 rings which gives an indication of fitted pressure
You can have perfect in spec fitted gaps but bike will have massive blowby if rings have been overheated and free gap has closed up

In theory the gas pressure should get behind rings and 'force' them into cylinder wall, however, experience suggests it only happens if pistons are 'gas ported' or modified for Dykes rings
 As for measuring cylinders, unless you have some mega bucks lazer stuff, 1/10,000" bore gauge is perfectly adequate, the cheap $50.00 ones are pretty worthless as they only measure to 1/1000 of inch

BTW people,
 Piston rings are made 'round' at fitted size, but, unless cylinder is at exact spec they will be slightly out of round which is why they need to bed in, if cylinder is set to specified bore size (not piston size +0.0012") the rings will be 'round'
I may be just a 'bike mechanic' but I've spent years researching this stuff, it isn't just opinion or 50yrs out of date 'because my uncle said so'  ::)
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 06:36:45 AM by crazypj »
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Offline KJ790

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Re: Honing
« Reply #66 on: September 20, 2013, 07:09:44 AM »
AFAIK Suzuki are the only manufacturer to give a free end gap to top 2 rings which gives an indication of fitted pressure
You can have perfect in spec fitted gaps but bike will have massive blowby if rings have been overheated and free gap has closed up

In theory the gas pressure should get behind rings and 'force' them into cylinder wall, however, experience suggests it only happens if pistons are 'gas ported' or modified for Dykes rings
 As for measuring cylinders, unless you have some mega bucks lazer stuff, 1/10,000" bore gauge is perfectly adequate, the cheap $50.00 ones are pretty worthless as they only measure to 1/1000 of inch

BTW people,
 Piston rings are made 'round' at fitted size, but, unless cylinder is at exact spec they will be slightly out of round which is why they need to bed in, if cylinder is set to specified bore size (not piston size +0.0012") the rings will be 'round'
I may be just a 'bike mechanic' but I've spent years researching this stuff, it isn't just opinion or 50yrs out of date 'because my uncle said so'  ::)

You can buy a decent mic that is accurate to +/- .00025" inches for under $150. It is well worth the money. If your bore has worn enough to completely make the cross-hatch disappear you should be able to measure it (assuming you measured the bore when you put the engine together the first time).

Question though. You say rings are made round and that is why they need to bed in. I am assuming you mean they are made to be round when compressed within the diameter of the bore. What shape are the rings after they have bedded in?
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 07:47:42 AM by KJ790 »
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Offline 74750k4

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Re: Honing
« Reply #67 on: September 20, 2013, 09:51:24 AM »
I suppose I could hone 2&3, and run 1&4 as is. See what happens. :)

Offline crazypj

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Re: Honing
« Reply #68 on: September 20, 2013, 02:37:07 PM »
AFAIK Suzuki are the only manufacturer to give a free end gap to top 2 rings which gives an indication of fitted pressure
You can have perfect in spec fitted gaps but bike will have massive blowby if rings have been overheated and free gap has closed up

In theory the gas pressure should get behind rings and 'force' them into cylinder wall, however, experience suggests it only happens if pistons are 'gas ported' or modified for Dykes rings
 As for measuring cylinders, unless you have some mega bucks lazer stuff, 1/10,000" bore gauge is perfectly adequate, the cheap $50.00 ones are pretty worthless as they only measure to 1/1000 of inch

BTW people,
 Piston rings are made 'round' at fitted size, but, unless cylinder is at exact spec they will be slightly out of round which is why they need to bed in, if cylinder is set to specified bore size (not piston size +0.0012") the rings will be 'round'
I may be just a 'bike mechanic' but I've spent years researching this stuff, it isn't just opinion or 50yrs out of date 'because my uncle said so'  ::)

You can buy a decent mic that is accurate to +/- .00025" inches for under $150. It is well worth the money. If your bore has worn enough to completely make the cross-hatch disappear you should be able to measure it (assuming you measured the bore when you put the engine together the first time).

Question though. You say rings are made round and that is why they need to bed in. I am assuming you mean they are made to be round when compressed within the diameter of the bore. What shape are the rings after they have bedded in?

Rings are only completely circular at the specified bore size which may or may not give correct piston to cylinder clearance.
As the piston to cylinder clearance is more important, that's what you hone for final sizing
It's part of the reason why some 'identical' engines are better than others
The closer to 'exact size' the longer and better a motor will run between overhaul/re-build
 As for micrometers, if you learn to read a verinier mic you can easily measure to 1/10.000" (0.0001")
Metric mic's are available to measure to 1 micron (1/1000th mm) but you still need a bore gauge to measure hole size
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 05:05:52 PM by crazypj »
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Offline dave500

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Re: Honing
« Reply #69 on: September 20, 2013, 03:17:38 PM »
a good shop will measure the pistons then bore and hone each its own bore then number or letter them.

Offline 74750k4

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Re: Honing
« Reply #70 on: December 30, 2013, 10:22:41 AM »
So decided to do a light 320 grit ball hone. My question is ....

How to hold the cylinder bank.

Offline 70CB750

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Re: Honing
« Reply #71 on: December 30, 2013, 11:12:03 AM »
I used battery drill with cylinders just on the work table.
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Offline jonda500

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Re: Honing
« Reply #72 on: December 30, 2013, 08:20:51 PM »
@ crazypj- "In theory the gas pressure should get behind rings and 'force' them into cylinder wall, however, experience suggests it only happens if pistons are 'gas ported' or modified for Dykes rings"
   Would you mind explaining further exactly what "experience"(s) led you to believe that explosion gas pressure does not get behind the piston rings and press them against the cylinder walls?
   I can't think how you would prove or disprove this, however I have proved to myself that another thing I was taught about piston rings at automotive mechanical engineering classes is true- which is that piston rings are slightly curved upwards and flatten out to dead square with the cylinder wall when the explosion gas pressure hits them. I know this is true as I have a 550 motor with new rings fitted that has been run a lot sitting in an engine stand but has never had any load what so ever put on it since the new rings were installed(very bad way to run in new rings I know!). Now with it apart looking at the pistons side on, the rings have only rubbed on the bottom 3/4 of the surface that slides up and down the bore with the wear not quite reaching the top corner of the compression rings on any of them. This is why it is important to put the rings in the right way up(marking at the top), but my question is do the chrome rings go at the top and the darker coloured rings beneath?(PO put the rings in, looks like barrels have been honed but he left out all the o rings!)
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Offline dave500

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Re: Honing
« Reply #73 on: December 30, 2013, 10:11:23 PM »
chrome ring on top,sounds like you wernt paying attention in class?

Offline jonda500

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Re: Honing
« Reply #74 on: December 30, 2013, 10:48:21 PM »
chrome ring on top,sounds like you wernt paying attention in class?
:-[ maybe-  plus it was over 30 years ago and I quit 2 months short of finishing my 4 year apprenticeship at slaven mazda - wanted to work on motorbikes! - but as every man and his dog wants to work in a motorcycle shop I've had to teach myself everything I know about motorbikes!
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197? CB500/550 constructing from left over parts
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