Author Topic: Timing and idling issues. 1975 Honda Cb 550f  (Read 972 times)

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Offline oilspot

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Timing and idling issues. 1975 Honda Cb 550f
« on: September 18, 2013, 11:13:34 AM »
Hello!
I'm brand new to the forum and to doing this type of maintenance. I bought this bike a few months ago and before I owned it, it hadn't run in eight years. The po did the carbs, but since I have gotten it I have replaced both left and right controls, lots of wiring issues, tank, petcock, muffler, heads etc. and I just recently got it on the road. After the first ride it ran good for about an hour then once it got hot it idles high around 3000 rpms then dies. once it dies it has a hard time starting again and if I get it running it needs a lot of gas to stay moving, misfires, back fires and then dies if i let off the throttle.

I started to adjusted the carbs, which I think was a mistake. I then started to do the timing with a timing light. I adjusted to the points in order 1-4 first then 2-3, lining them up to the "f" mark and setting the points at .014. when it runs it idles to the right of the 1-4 mark and when I rev it all i can see is the spring.

I feel like there are other systems affecting this but dont know where to start. Also the manual says to adjust the plate, and I'm not sure where to start on that either.

Help?

Offline Honda550k

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Re: Timing and idling issues. 1975 Honda Cb 550f
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2013, 11:23:56 AM »
Clean your points and plugs. Replace them if you have to. Check to see if all headers are hot at idle. Gap your plugs. As for adjusting the plate. I set my timing with a test light. When setting the timing you want 1/4 and 2/3 to light up at the f. You adjust the plate to achieve that. Turning the plate clockwise will advance the timing counter will retard.

Offline dave500

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Re: Timing and idling issues. 1975 Honda Cb 550f
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2013, 12:52:08 PM »
       Turning the plate clockwise will advance the timing counter will retard

    WRONG!its the other way around.

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Timing and idling issues. 1975 Honda Cb 550f
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2013, 01:23:08 PM »
Dave is right.
BTW, in the good old days mechanics didn't mess with the plates (nor with the carbs) but  timed the ignition by simply adjusting the contactbreakers. Then DIY people read all kinds of manuals like Clymer and Haynes and started to experiment with practical everything that was described.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 06:42:11 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline Honda550k

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Re: Timing and idling issues. 1975 Honda Cb 550f
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2013, 01:40:38 PM »
Hahahaha. My mistake. I confused it around.

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Timing and idling issues. 1975 Honda Cb 550f
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2013, 06:46:42 PM »
Wait now.... your post seems to say that you set a points gap of 14 thou. @ the 'F' mark ?.... Sorry that's wrong if that's the case. Lets go over gap and timing on your bike...
First thing, turn the main points plate to 1/2 way on it's adjustment. Snug the screws. Repeat for the 2-3 sub-plate.
Next turn the crankshaft ( Important note here; don't ever put a wrench on that 17mm 'nut' on the end of the points cam and turn the motor that way, use your left hand and 'jab' the kickstarter. Taking the plugs out makes it easier but not necessary  :) ).  Ok.... turn the crankshaft while observing the 1-4 points. Do not look at any timing marks, just turn the crank until you see the points opened to their widest. At this position adjust the points gap ( loosen the single 'gap' screw ) to 14 thou. Repeat , turning the crank and looking at the 2-3 points for max. open. Adjust to 14 thou.
Now turn the main plate with the bike idling ( no more than 1,100 rpm ), timing light set-up on plug 1 or 4 while observing the 'F' mark for the 1-4 points and line-up the firing at 'F'. Tighten main plate screws. Change timing light to plug 2 or 3 and adjust the sub-plate to show firing at 'F'.    Finally rev the bike to observe the // marks, which shows that the advancer unit is working....... good luck.
If your sure it's a carb problem; it's ignition,
If your sure it's an ignition problem; it's carbs....

Offline oilspot

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Re: Timing and idling issues. 1975 Honda Cb 550f
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2013, 07:16:31 AM »
Thanks so much everyone! I have been working on this when I have free time.

Spanner1, I adjusted the points at the most "open" position in the cycle, but when I start the bike it idles at 1300 rpms until it heats up and jumps to 3000. The problem is that the plate, (no matter which direction i turn it) will not get the "F" mark to idle at the notch. It stays far to the right of the 2-3 markings. This is being done with a timing light. I will try to upload a photo.

I was only able to pull the 1-4 plugs, b/c the husky spark plaug remover is to wide for the 2-3 but I checked and the headers on the 2-3 cylinders are warm but not hot at idle. I will pick up the correct socket and get the other two plugs out.

Should I wire brush/file down the points? What is the best way to "clean" them?

Thanks again!

 

Offline iron_worker

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Re: Timing and idling issues. 1975 Honda Cb 550f
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2013, 07:25:38 AM »
I believe what you are describing is a common issue with cheap Daichii (sp?) reproduction points. The geometry of the parts is not correct and it makes it very difficult, if not impossible, to get the timing correct with the gap set within specification.

IW

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Timing and idling issues. 1975 Honda Cb 550f
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2013, 08:58:37 AM »
I adjusted the points at the most "open" position in the cycle, but when I start the bike it idles at 1300 rpms until it heats up and jumps to 3000.
Sounds normal.
Cold engines are inefficient and need the throttle held open a bit during warm up.  There is no fast idle cam coupled to the choke lever, and no computer to maintain idle speed based on temperature factors.  The idle knob on this bike is adjusted for idle RPM AFTER the engine is warmed up.  (It says so in the Honda shop manual, btw.)  The idle speed while cold or warming is maintained by the twist grip setting, which is normally controlled by the computer between the operator's ears.
This engine does NOT need a stationary warm up to be drivable.  The operator's hand is normally on the twist grip during driving.  So, keeping the engine going during initial warm up isn't a problem, but a learned technique.  The engine will operate fine with some choke applied, and it is a simple matter to reach down and incrementally nudge the choke toward off during the first few blocks of driving.  Once warmed up the machine idles the same as the last time you adjusted the idle after warm up.

The problem is that the plate, (no matter which direction i turn it) will not get the "F" mark to idle at the notch. It stays far to the right of the 2-3 markings. This is being done with a timing light. I will try to upload a photo.
I wonder why FAQ's are so hard to locate and read?  This is about the fifth related thread in just a last two weeks.
I suspect your machine's problem is part of the epidemic of undersized main 1.4 points plates not fitting properly into the engine case bosses.  As the 2.3 plate fits on top of the 1.4 plate, problems of the main plate can translate to problems on the 2.3 sub-plate.

If the 1.4 plate fits sloppily in the engine bosses, it can move side to side when the engine runs and the plate screws are loosened.  The side to side plate movement dimension adds and subtracts to the point gap (previously set with the 1.4 plate screws tight).  When you run out of timing adjustment range, the points rubbing block either can't get close enough to the point cam or it can't get far enough away from the points cam to open at the correct time.

The perfect solution is to make the 1.4 point plate a zero tolerance fit in the engine bosses.  However, an "at-time-of-adjustment" technique is to fit shims, such as a stack of thin feeler gauges, between the plate and the engine bosses, for the stabilization needed to complete the task at hand.  With the plate stabilized, the gap settings remain constant, even with the 1.4 plate screws loose during the timing process.  If you STILL run out of timing adjustment range on either set of points, then shift your added shims to another engine boss, and start over again, setting gaps on both sets, timing on 1.4 and then timing on 2.3.  Once all the plates and points screws are locked down, the shims can be removed.  But, you might want to note somewhere which shim location worked out the best.

I'm starting to believe that the Diachi point condemnation, (as well as the dynamic-timing-is-better-than-static-timing belief) are both related to the ill fitting 1.4 points plate issue.   I've not the time to prove that, at least until winter sets in.

Should I wire brush/file down the points? What is the best way to "clean" them?
I've been wire brushing the spark plugs for 40 years, with mostly success.  It is convenient, but not the "best" way.  The best way is one of the pneumatic spark plug cleaners and the proper powder that is used in them.   Got a compressor?  If not, cleaning depends on the type of deposits formed, fluffy carbon can be cleaned with a torch or a wire brush.  Hard crusty bits are cleaned with a small scraper and a brush.  The risk with a brush is that it can leave metallic traces embedded in the porcelain insulator.  As you might imagine, putting a conductive material on an electrical insulator defeats its primary function.  Wire brushing works fine in engines that have proper mixture control that allows the plugs to self clean at proper operating temperature.
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