Author Topic: Pods. What do you think?  (Read 33754 times)

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Offline Powderman

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Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #150 on: December 14, 2013, 06:19:45 PM »
yeah, I am pretty sure losing the primitive Honda pcv system is the absolute least worry for users of the pods.
I agree and figured when I read this:
 "without proper evacuation provided by the stock air induction system the engines build up pressure internally which affects performance (not to mention that it will eventually eat your engine alive). Could be part of why it's so hard to get one of these properly dialed in." , That it had little to do with the pods or airbox actually creating the scavenging instead of it just being an outlet to vent back into the engine and not the atmosphere. I have my doubts if crank case pressure has any bearing on dialing in the filters.

Offline SohRon

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Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #151 on: December 14, 2013, 09:37:32 PM »
The engines are designed to run with negative crankcase pressure; essentially a vacuum. It isn't a PCV system as it's a closed system and there's no flow into the case from the outside as in a PCV setup. Without proper case evacuation, blow-by pressure (and there's always blow-by no matter how new or tight your engine is... it's just the  nature of internal combustion engines) can build up within the case and inhibit piston travel, among a host of other problems, so what I was referring to was overall engine performance unrelated to air pods. Running one of these engines without some form of crankcase evacuation - even something as crude as a road draft tube - simply robs the engine of peak performance. Adding pods just exacerbates the problem.

There's more to crankcase evacuation than just getting the nasties out of the atmosphere, though that's certainly a good thing.
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Offline dave500

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Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #152 on: December 14, 2013, 10:04:16 PM »
there will never be negative crankcase pressure,only positive,the heat and also turbulence from the rising and falling pistons creates it,if pressure isnt vented youll leak oil from seals and gaskets,if the engine was sealed fully it would burst,unlike a two stroke that needs internal pressures to run,theyll run fine without any tube attatched,but why not try and suck out some fumes by making it a draft tube?plumbing the fumes to the inlet side of the carbs was a half baked idea,a proper pvc system has it at the vacuum in front of the carb and a breather type cap so fresh air is pulled through the engine,later on these became a fully sealed unit on cars with a charcoal canister etc and the fresh air came via the air filter so as not to let one bit of any engine fume into the atmosphere,if you think these engines have negative pressure in the crank case try removing the dip stick with the engine running.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 10:13:12 PM by dave500 »

Offline SohRon

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Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #153 on: December 15, 2013, 12:38:28 AM »
Thanks for the insight, Dave, but consider this:

Quote
there will never be negative crankcase pressure,only positive,the heat and also turbulence from the rising and falling pistons creates it,

The pistons actually add very little to the crankcase pressure as the falling pistons are negated by opposing rising pistons. For the most part, crankcase pressure is created by blow-by in one form or another

Quote
if pressure isn't vented you ll leak oil from seals and gaskets, if the engine was sealed fully it would burst,unlike a two stroke that needs internal pressures to run,they ll run fine without any tube attatched, but why not try and suck out some fumes by making it a draft tube?

As I pointed out, excessive crankcase pressure can inhibit piston travel, etc, etc. "Running fine" is somewhat subjective... leaving the breather hose disconnected simply allows more pressure to build in the case. Running a draft tube or using the stock air recirc system will evacuate the pressure. Reducing pressure stops oil leaks, reduces windage and helps the rings seal better

Quote
plumbing the fumes to the inlet side of the carbs was a half baked idea,a proper pvc system has it at the vacuum in front of the carb and a breather type cap so fresh air is pulled through the engine,later on these became a fully sealed unit on cars with a charcoal canister etc and the fresh air came via the air filter so as not to let one bit of any engine fume into the atmosphere,

The SOHCs don't use a PCV system and the crankcases have no inlet, only an outlet. PCV systems are like a room with two opposing windows. Crankcase evacuation is like drinking through a straw...

Quote
if you think these engines have negative pressure in the crank case try removing the dip stick with the engine running.

The evacuation system only functions during peak engine performance. With a draft tube and with the bike parked and the engine at idle, it isn't functioning at all... so you'll get a lot of pressure in the case. Take the bike out onto the highway and remove the cap when you're moving at about 75 or 80 mph...  ;D
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 01:03:47 AM by SohRon »
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Offline dave500

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Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #154 on: December 15, 2013, 01:18:54 AM »
there wont be any negative pressure in the crankcase,a draft tube just siphons off what it can dependent on road speed,on paper the pistons balance each other out but the turbulence will win,you can take your dip stick out at highway speeds anytime you want.

Offline DustyRags

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Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #155 on: December 15, 2013, 09:26:25 AM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the crank case breather tube basically just a tube that connects the air space in the engine to the outside atmosphere? If so, it would seem to me that pressure could only build up to the point where it can no longer flow out through a 1/2 inch tube, which really isn't very much at all, unless your pressure is building up REALLY quickly.
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Offline Powderman

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Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #156 on: December 15, 2013, 09:47:16 AM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the crank case breather tube basically just a tube that connects the air space in the engine to the outside atmosphere? If so, it would seem to me that pressure could only build up to the point where it can no longer flow out through a 1/2 inch tube, which really isn't very much at all, unless your pressure is building up REALLY quickly.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the crank case breather tube basically just a tube that connects the air space in the engine to the outside atmosphere? If so, it would seem to me that pressure could only build up to the point where it can no longer flow out through a 1/2 inch tube, which really isn't very much at all, unless your pressure is building up REALLY quickly.
I also questioned the statement that if you left the tube open pressure would continue to build.I am not buying that airflow through the carbs creates more scavenging the the pressure itself will relieve.

Offline Stev-o

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Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #157 on: December 15, 2013, 10:08:06 AM »

 Running one of these engines without some form of crankcase evacuation - even something as crude as a road draft tube - simply robs the engine of peak performance. Adding pods just exacerbates the problem.



But arent most cafe "builders" just concerned with how the bike looks?
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Offline Powderman

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Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #158 on: December 15, 2013, 10:10:50 AM »

 Running one of these engines without some form of crankcase evacuation - even something as crude as a road draft tube - simply robs the engine of peak performance. Adding pods just exacerbates the problem.



But arent most cafe "builders" just concerned with how the bike looks?

Depends on which website you happen to be on. Without naming names I belong to 2 that have completely different views of what is right about a cafe racer.

Offline SohRon

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Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #159 on: December 15, 2013, 11:29:56 AM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the crank case breather tube basically just a tube that connects the air space in the engine to the outside atmosphere? If so, it would seem to me that pressure could only build up to the point where it can no longer flow out through a 1/2 inch tube, which really isn't very much at all, unless your pressure is building up REALLY quickly.

The breather tube was used in two different ways. Initially it acted as a road draft tube and was routed down underneath the engine. With the vehicle in motion, the venturi effect of air rushing past the mouth of the tube creates a vacuum that pulls vapors from the crankcase. In later applications, the tube connects to the intake system, where intake air supplies the scavenging action. It was never "just" a passive tube for letting air out of the engine...


 Running one of these engines without some form of crankcase evacuation - even something as crude as a road draft tube - simply robs the engine of peak performance. Adding pods just exacerbates the problem.



But aren't most cafe "builders" just concerned with how the bike looks?

Depends on which website you happen to be on. Without naming names I belong to 2 that have completely different views of what is right about a cafe racer.

If it looks good, it must be good.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 11:39:36 AM by SohRon »
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Offline Powderman

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Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #160 on: December 15, 2013, 11:43:50 AM »
SohRon, while I agree with your theory I doubt the draft or scavenge effect makes more than a minimal effect and that the difference has no bearing on the longevity or performance of the motor. The hole is all that is required to elleviate the crank case pressure. If the hole on the valve cover were left open I don't see how your statement that the pressure would continue to build is accurate. If that were the case I don't think the scavenge effect from being in the carb boot or the draft effect from a hose hanging creates enough draw to over come this increasing pressure. What kind of pressure (PSI) do think is created in a normal running motor and how much PSI is relieved by a 1/4"-1/2" hole?

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #161 on: December 15, 2013, 01:16:35 PM »
One of the basics of air movement understanding is the concept of differential pressure.  If two pressure areas are the same, the air won't move.   Air moves from high pressure to fill a lower pressure.  Yes, heating and cooling changes the air density, but it is the pressure difference that makes air and fluids move.  Equilibrium is where the pressure is the same throughout a specific confined area.

As reference, we use outside atmospheric pressure, even though this in fact is variable.  The only thing about it that is constant is that it is always outside our machines, which while running, always has to use what is available as a means to propel.  It's the oxygen content in the air that performs work for us and is relatively "free".
To get that oxygen into the engine requires a lower pressure area than what is outside the bike.  The engine makes this lower pressure when the intake valve is open and the piston falls.  Outside air pressure rushes in to fill void and attempts to restore equilibrium.  The only path available for this action to complete is the air duct between the outside atmosphere and the engine cylinder.  In fact, all measurable points within that duct will be a lower than atmospheric pressure until equalization completes and certainly while the air is actually flowing/moving.  This includes the place right at the air filter opening to the atmosphere.  If the air is moving, there must be a pressure difference, with air moving toward the lower pressure area.

This explanation establishes that the air filter box must have a lower pressure than outside atmospheric at any time the engine is running.  The pressure will not be as extremely different as what is present in the engine cylinder source of low pressure.  But, it will be at some pressure difference point between the low pressure creation source and what exists outside the machine.

Connecting a tube between the air filter box and the crankcase cavity does apply a lower pressure to the crankcase than if the tube was connected directly to the outside atmosphere (road draft).   This doesn't guarantee that the negative pressure (with respect to outside air pressure) will exist in the crankcase.  It would if the crankcase is perfectly sealed.  But, piston blowby and heating expansion of the gasses and vapors within the crankcase would act as higher pressure sources to fill any low pressure area that did try to establish within the crankcase.    A road draft tube will release all those crankcase pressure sources while equalizing with the outside air pressure as long as the pressure within the case is higher than that of outside air pressure.  The air-filter-box-to-crankcase-tube creates a positive controlled pathway of harmful substances back to the engine to be burned. 

How in the world is it not better to burn those engine gasses and vapors in the engine than release them into the atmosphere that we all breathe?

The air-filter-box-to-crankcase-tube does benefit the engine as well, by better and well directed evacuation of abrasive soot and water vapor OUT of the crankcase oil supply, beginning at engine start, rather than waiting for operating temperature gas/vapor expansion and relying on unwanted blowby pressure to evacuate the detrimental substances for the 15 to 20 minutes it takes for the crankcase reach operating temperature.

FYI from WIKIPEDIA:
In 1952, Professor A. J. Haagen-Smit, of the California Institute of Technology at Pasadena, postulated that unburned hydrocarbons were a primary constituent of smog, and that gasoline powered automobiles were a major source of those hydrocarbons. After some investigation by the GM Research Laboratory (led by Dr. Lloyd L. Withrow), it was discovered in 1958 that the road draft tube was a major source—about half—of the hydrocarbons coming from the automobile.



















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Offline DustyRags

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Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #162 on: December 15, 2013, 09:03:12 PM »
OK, I'll buy that it's good policy to re-burn those fumes rather than vent them- no argument there. I wish my 750 still had the smog equipment.

That having been said- I'm not sure that the suction in the airbox/carb system is so much higher that it's going to make an appreciable difference in the crank case pressure compared to a venturi tube. Two reasons: first, a venturi with a sidedraft at highway speeds is going to create quite a bit of suction, and second because I suspect the limiting factor in venting fumes out of the crank case is going to be incoming pressure, rather than outgoing vacuum. In other words, if the total amount over time scavenged by either the venturi tube or the air box hookup is greater than the incoming gas on the other end, neither one is going to scavenge all the fumes, and may make very little difference.

But that's all theory and WAGs. I don't KNOW any of that. I'm just taking a stab here.
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Offline crazypj

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Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #163 on: December 19, 2013, 08:17:50 PM »
Put a PCV in the line and a little filter on the end, BUT, make sure it's a breather filter for automotive.
That won't restrict any flow
Reducing pressure in crankcase is a GOOD IDEA, even the Honda use of lower pressure in airbox helped reduce pumping losses, before 'we' had even heard about it
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #164 on: December 20, 2013, 09:10:38 PM »
OK, I'll buy that it's good policy to re-burn those fumes rather than vent them- no argument there. I wish my 750 still had the smog equipment.

That having been said- I'm not sure that the suction in the airbox/carb system is so much higher that it's going to make an appreciable difference in the crank case pressure compared to a venturi tube. Two reasons: first, a venturi with a sidedraft at highway speeds is going to create quite a bit of suction, and second because I suspect the limiting factor in venting fumes out of the crank case is going to be incoming pressure, rather than outgoing vacuum. In other words, if the total amount over time scavenged by either the venturi tube or the air box hookup is greater than the incoming gas on the other end, neither one is going to scavenge all the fumes, and may make very little difference.

But that's all theory and WAGs. I don't KNOW any of that. I'm just taking a stab here.

Well, there is/was enough "to it" that the old Production Class racing crowd went to the trouble to make little vents under the bikes to 'suck' on those hoses a little bit at track speeds. In those days the NACA ducts, both for intake charging and exhaust scavenging, had become a phenomenon, and little nacelles of them showed up on the track rides. While I don't remember seeing one on a 750, they were seen on many smaller twins, bolted under the engines, looking like a little 'jet engine' or something, generating some [small?] amount of vacuum above 45 MPH (it was said) to suck on the crankcase hose. They may have even worked, as the back of these little nacelles were often oily after a race, indicating that the crankcase pressures were at least coming out the back of them, and their front sides were nice and clean. Guesswork?
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Offline DustyRags

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Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #165 on: December 20, 2013, 11:37:45 PM »
Guesswork?

Beats me, but suddenly I want one!  ;D

Seriously, though, it doesn't make sense to me, but maybe every little bit counts. And maybe there's just a hell of a lot I don't know, which wouldn't surprise me at all. What is clear is that a lot of people who are a hell of a lot smarter than I am chose to do that, so I'm gonna guess there's something to it, even if I can't figure it out.

Thanks for the info, Hondaman!
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Offline LesterPiglet

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Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #166 on: December 21, 2013, 03:14:11 AM »
My bike runs the same with or without that top hose when it is stationary!
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Offline Ace

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Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #167 on: December 21, 2013, 04:14:44 AM »
I had numerous oil leaks on my F2 that was bored out to 895cc. I put another breather hose across from the one that come out of the rocker cover, stopped the leaks. Crankcase was pressurising and this solved it. I was running pods with VM29 mm smoothbores, once tuned in it really did open up the power. I used K&N pods, ported head, 61b cam and it was good to ride and turned heads when the more modern folk looked in there mirrors and saw me hanging in there.  Also had a bit to do with knowing the roads, grip level and how far you can push, riding the bike on the performance of the cam. Open straights they had me.  Fun times......
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Offline neilc

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Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #168 on: December 22, 2013, 03:33:42 PM »
I waisted like over a 100 bucks on both pods and velocity stacks now have to find something else because i haven't the room for a stock air box what else is their

Offline Stev-o

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Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #169 on: December 22, 2013, 03:40:42 PM »
I waisted like over a 100 bucks on both pods and velocity stacks now have to find something else because i haven't the room for a stock air box what else is their

Breadbox or Airbox....

http://www.steeldragonperformance.com/air_boxes_7.html


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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #170 on: December 22, 2013, 03:58:20 PM »
I waisted like over a 100 bucks on both pods and velocity stacks now have to find something else because i haven't the room for a stock air box what else is their
Nobody said education was necessarily cheap.

How much room do you have?
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #171 on: December 22, 2013, 06:07:45 PM »
Aussie company Lynx makes these..?

750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
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Offline Stev-o

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Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #172 on: December 22, 2013, 06:12:14 PM »
Aussie company Lynx makes these..?



Those look pretty sweet Mick.  Do you have them or thinking about gettin em?
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Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #173 on: December 22, 2013, 06:16:29 PM »
Here's a link Steve.... About half way down

http://www.lynxcorp.com.au/main.php?idx=ourproducts
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
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Offline SohRon

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Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #174 on: December 23, 2013, 11:28:04 AM »
Road draft tubes were used for more than fifty years to evacuate the crankcases of most trains, planes and automobiles; pretty much everything with an internal combustion engine (excluding boats) used one. They were usually made of metal, extending from high in the crankcase to just below the bottom of the engine, and ranged from 1/2 inch to an inch in diameter on most automobiles - slightly larger on trucks and bigger engines. They were successful at evacuating the crankcases and created a feature on the roads that you don't find today: the dreaded black stripe. As the vapors hit the roadway they left an oily sludge behind on the pavement that got worse as the engines aged and more oil was siphoned out along with the vapors. In a very ugly way, the black stripe was proof that the tubes were doing their job.




As I pointed out earlier, the tubes were used to remove excessive blow-by pressures from the case, thereby reducing oil leaks, windage and allowing the pistons to move more freely without high case pressure that acted to inhibit their movement. in addition, they removed harmful vapors from the engine case. Blow-by byproducts combine with oil and water vapor inside the case to form a host of noxious compounds, most of them acidic in nature, and these compounds attack the oil, turning it into an acidic sludge. The acids also effect internal engine components such as bearings and the like, greatly reducing their operational life. That's one reason the old pre-'60s cars didn't last all that long; 100,000 miles being pretty much the extent of an engine's usefulness.

The biggest problem with road draft tubes is (arguably) that they worked, and by the '40s and '50s they were sending tons of poisonous hydrocarbons into the atmosphere; a study done in the '50s, as noted above by TT, showed that between 20- and 40% of the pollution created by cars was emitted from the road draft tube




GM (and more precisely Cadillac), working with a system they had created in WW2 for their tank division, successfully routed the tube up to the intake where engine vacuum acted to more efficiently scavenge the crankcase than the (relatively) passive draft tube, which only worked when the vehicle was in motion, had. Additionally, the emissions were sent through a series of baffles and filters that removed oil and water vapors from the siphoned gasses before sending them back through the carburetor for re-burning. This not only reduced atmospheric pollution, but helped the engines last longer.

Now, I'm not a huge advocate of polluting the atmosphere. I appreciate the fact that Honda spent significant money and time to develop a system (BGSD) that not only helps clean the air, but makes the engine run more efficiently and last longer. I've made it a priority to ensure that the Blow-by Gas Scavenging Device is complete and fully functional on my bike as I believe it's the best thing for it and, after all, it's how Honda designed things to be...

My suggestion would be to retain the stock airbox and scavenging system both for the longevity of the bike and for a cleaner atmosphere; frankly, I've never been a big fan of the "empty triangle" and think it just looks silly. However, if you insist on running pods on your bike my contention is that you need to provide some sort of crankcase scavenging device, be it a draft tube or whatever, so that the engine doesn't have to fight internal pressure and doesn't eat itself up from stewing in its own juices. Anecdotal evidence such as "I took my breather tube clean off and it didn't make a difference" is simply based on ignorance as to what is really happening down inside the engine, and is no proof at all.

If you decide to use a road draft tube, it should be routed straight down from the breather with no kinks or filters, which would defeat the purpose of the tube. It should extend an inch or so below the bottom of the engine into the slipstream provided by the bike's motion. For increased scavenging, the tip of the tube can be cut in a 45 degree angle, with the angle facing toward the rear of the bike.

JMHO   ;D
"He slipped back down the alley with some roly-poly little bat-faced girl..."

Assembling my '74 CB550: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=86697.0
Assembly of the Right-hand Switch (a rebuilder's guide):  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=80532.0
Installing stock 4X4 exhaust: CB500-CB550 K: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=82323.0
CB550 Assembly Manual: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,151576.0.html