Author Topic: Pods. What do you think?  (Read 33740 times)

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Powderman

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,465
    • Creative Candy Powder Coating
Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #175 on: December 23, 2013, 11:35:58 AM »
SohRon, with that said, how much pressure can build in the crankcase if there is a hole in it? Whether there is a draft tube in the air or not seems to me it would make minimal difference to having the actual scavenge effect in place. I'm all for a clean environment and think it wise to use the stock system but in my mind it is more for recirculation than it is for actual scavenging of pressure.

Offline SohRon

  • She laughs 'til she cries when they call me an
  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 946
Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #176 on: December 23, 2013, 12:15:34 PM »
The road draft tube actively scavenges the case through the venturi effect created at the tube opening by air rushing over the tip. In other words, it actually pulls the vapors out of the case, as opposed to a simple "open hole" where any emmissions released are due to the case being so full of gas that they escape simply because there's no where else to go. Take a straw, put it into a glass of water and blow across the tip of the straw. Water will rise in the straw due to the low pressure gradient provided by the air stream moving across the tip. Same principle as the road draft tube and the more efficient BGSD. Really, if it wasn't necessary or didn't work, industry wouldn't have taken the time to develop it and use it for over fifty years...
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 12:18:42 PM by SohRon »
"He slipped back down the alley with some roly-poly little bat-faced girl..."

Assembling my '74 CB550: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=86697.0
Assembly of the Right-hand Switch (a rebuilder's guide):  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=80532.0
Installing stock 4X4 exhaust: CB500-CB550 K: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=82323.0
CB550 Assembly Manual: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,151576.0.html

Offline Powderman

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,465
    • Creative Candy Powder Coating
Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #177 on: December 23, 2013, 12:23:42 PM »
My point is how much PSI of scavenge are we talking about, 1-2? How much of the design of the tube actually accounts for scavenge over the fact that it is low in the vehicle so as not to spew the oil vapor over the vehicle. I think the draft effect is merely an added bonus. Modern vehicles just have a breather filter in the valve cover to do the same thing, or a PCV valve to recirculate the fumes back into the carb to be reburned.

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #178 on: December 23, 2013, 01:26:40 PM »
I decided to treat the crankcase vent hose as an orifice, largely because the tube is the pathway between the pressure source (crankcase) and the destination (Either atmosphere or filter box).

I found a flow calculator at:
http://www.efunda.com/formulae/fluids/calc_orifice_flowmeter.cfm#calc

...Which calculates the flow rate based on pressure differentials.  Plugging in some numbers, it gives how much fluid (such as air) can move through a specified orifice diameter.
I reasoned that the vent hose nipples are about 1/2 inch in diameter.  I used a source duct area of 5 inches, as that is at least the diameter of what feeds the crankcase vent nipple.

We don't know the average pressure of all SOHC4 engines inside the crankcase.  But, I plugged in some values to get some idea of flow capability.

1 PSI differential allowed for 20.1 CFM through such an orifice.
2 PSI differential allowed for 28.5 CFM through such an orifice.
4 PSI differential allowed for 40.3 CFM through such an orifice.
5 PSI differential allowed for 45.1 CFM through such an orifice.

As can be seen, the more pressure differential exists, the more volume can be transferred.  I don't think this should surprise anyone.  It's just nice to have a formula that verifies what we already know.   If we then assume the vent is a road draft type, the flow is totally dependent on what pressure builds inside the crankcase.  Motors with ideal piston ring seal, won't build any.  However, I don't know of any SOHC4 engines with perfect piston ring seal.  If you plug the vent tube and oil begins push past the seals, you know it is building up more pressure that outside atmospheric, right?  Further, if you see any visible vapors exiting the tube, it is either blow by or heated gasses expanding from temperature rise, which also creates pressure.  (Ever see a steam kettle?)

What about Honda's recirculator?
For reference,  Honda specifies an average 16-24 cm hg is present in the intake duct between carburetor and engine cylinder.  This equates to a 3 - 4.5 PSI (vacuum source relative to outside atmospheric source).   Anyone who has vacuum synced their carbs has seen the vacuum change with both throttle position and engine RPM.  During operation, outside air pressure is constantly trying to equalize the pressure differential.  Which is what gives you air flow in the duct.  But, it is easy to understand that if there is air flowing, there is pressure differential to varying degrees within the duct between the engine cylinder and the orifice that is the air intake to the engine.  So, it is fairly obvious that the filter box air pressure will be lower than outside atmospheric, in a range from a bit less than 0 to -3 or -4 PSI (could be more at higher RPMs when that inlet orifice is taxed to provide more air flow).

What this tells me, is that Honda's recirculator works far better at crankcase evacuation than a road draft tube in all operational modes as it presents a lower pressure to the crankcase than the outside atmospheric pressure can provide.  Whether it actually lowers the crankcase pressure of your engine depends on how fcuked up your rings are.  But, certainly the opportunity exists to have it lower than without the recirculator.  Beyond that, this exercise also shows that the more your engine tries to build crankcase pressure with noxious fumes, the better the vent hose actually vents noxious fumes.  And, the recirculator will work better than outside air to draw it out because it presents a lower air pressure source.
 
I know that this is not a smack-your-forehead revelation. 
But, writing it was more interesting than painting another section of eaves on the house, today.







Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Maurice

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 450
Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #179 on: December 23, 2013, 03:48:00 PM »
Pardon the interruption...

What about foam pods? UNI pods to be specific. These get decent results in other applications, say *cough* twins... Any feedback on those?

Thanks
 


Offline 750K

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,392
Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #180 on: December 23, 2013, 04:10:26 PM »
TT, does the vent hose that hooks up to the airbox vent before or past the filter element? I can't quite remember and I'm not anywhere near my bike to check at the moment. I want to rivet the hook up tube from my spare stock airbox to a bread box filter but it would vent directly into the inner section of the bread box and not get filtered be the oiled foam element. I can't remember how the stock box sets it up.
77 Cb750, 78 Kz1000

Offline Retro Rocket

  • Eggs are hard due too a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,279
  • ROCK & ROLL
Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #181 on: December 23, 2013, 05:04:08 PM »
Pardon the interruption...

What about foam pods? UNI pods to be specific. These get decent results in other applications, say *cough* twins... Any feedback on those?

Thanks

Do a forum search and have a read mate, there's tons of info and reasons why pods are inferior to the airbox on these bikes using the standard carbs. Uni pods do not have velocity stacks so they are inferior....
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #182 on: December 23, 2013, 05:17:59 PM »
TT, does the vent hose that hooks up to the airbox vent before or past the filter element?
The vent hose routes after the air filter or bypasses it in some way.  The vapors would permanently damage a paper filter, and wouldn't do a foam filter much good either.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline LesterPiglet

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,046
  • 1977 CB550F2
Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #183 on: December 23, 2013, 05:56:11 PM »
I know taking the hose off the top  makes no difference whatsoever except to the atmosphere.
'Then' and 'than' are completely different words and have completely different meanings. Same with 'of' and 'have'. Set and sit. There, their and they're. Draw and drawer. Could care less/couldn't care less. Bought/brought FFS.


Les Ross.            Certified by a Professional

Offline 750K

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,392
Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #184 on: December 23, 2013, 07:41:26 PM »
TT, does the vent hose that hooks up to the airbox vent before or past the filter element?
The vent hose routes after the air filter or bypasses it in some way.  The vapors would permanently damage a paper filter, and wouldn't do a foam filter much good either.

Cheers TT, I think my idea should work then.
77 Cb750, 78 Kz1000

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #185 on: January 02, 2014, 11:07:35 AM »
I know taking the hose off the top  makes no difference whatsoever except to the atmosphere.

Same can be said of the gas cap being closed or not.  But, under certain circumstances, most will find that using the bike with the gas cap closed to be beneficial.

So, it depends on your definition of "no difference" and what measurement techniques and calibration methods are used for monitoring.

For example:
Say you test for engine's idle speed with and without an air filter.  If the idle speed doesn't change, will you then assume an air filter is irrelevant, and "makes no difference"?
On the other hand, add a dusty environment, calibrated in X particles per square inch, and measure how long the engine will run without internal parts replacement.  Might you agree that is quite a different test with likely different conclusions?

Part of determining the value of a certain component or system depends on the test parameters to which it is subjected and measurement accuracy used to collect data.


To support your statement, have you data showing average water content in the crankcase with and without the engine breather hose and recirculator connected?  How about oil analysis data trends between change intervals with and without the recirculator?

For that matter, have you measured the atmosphere surrounding you bike when the engine is operating, both with and without the recirculator system attached?

You are certainly fully entitled to present your opinion, though, on whatever factors that led you to it.   ;D

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline LesterPiglet

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,046
  • 1977 CB550F2
Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #186 on: January 02, 2014, 11:23:36 AM »
No painting today either?   :-\
'Then' and 'than' are completely different words and have completely different meanings. Same with 'of' and 'have'. Set and sit. There, their and they're. Draw and drawer. Could care less/couldn't care less. Bought/brought FFS.


Les Ross.            Certified by a Professional

Offline crazypj

  • I'm brill, me
  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,467
  • first 100,000 miles. 1977 CB550F
Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #187 on: January 10, 2014, 10:23:40 PM »

The truth hurts, not as much as an ice pick in the eye though  ;D
 seat of the pants is not a test   ;)
I fake being smart pretty good
'you can take my word for it or argue until you find out I'm right'

Offline Petros2r

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #188 on: June 27, 2014, 10:50:16 AM »
You can make pods work.
You need to tell us the year and model.
If it is the 77-78 model I can give you very exact info.

Every other concern must already be fixed. Carbs last.
Would you mind elaborating on this?
I have pods and "stubby" exhaust (4 in 4)
Thanks
2005 Ducati Monster S2R
2007 H-D Sportster 883XLC
1978 Honda CB550 Four K

Offline Retro Rocket

  • Eggs are hard due too a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,279
  • ROCK & ROLL
Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #189 on: June 27, 2014, 03:05:31 PM »
You can make pods work.
You need to tell us the year and model.
If it is the 77-78 model I can give you very exact info.

Every other concern must already be fixed. Carbs last.
Would you mind elaborating on this?
I have pods and "stubby" exhaust (4 in 4)
Thanks

There is a BIG difference between making them "work" and actually having a great running bike...., Pods on stock carbs will NEVER work as well as the air box unless the pods have some sort of velocity stack built in...
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline Stev-o

  • Ain't no
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 34,238
  • Central Texas
Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #190 on: June 27, 2014, 03:31:36 PM »
You can make pods work.
You need to tell us the year and model.
If it is the 77-78 model I can give you very exact info.

Every other concern must already be fixed. Carbs last.
Would you mind elaborating on this?
I have pods and "stubby" exhaust (4 in 4)
Thanks

There is a BIG difference between making them "work" and actually having a great running bike...., Pods on stock carbs will NEVER work as well as the air box unless the pods have some sort of velocity stack built in...

Hey Mick - you ever tire of typing that?!   

Maybe we should start replying "Pods are great! Will increase HP by 10-15% and no more hassles getting the carbies on!!!"                        NOT.
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline lucky

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,717
Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #191 on: June 27, 2014, 04:26:12 PM »
I have pods on my '77F. The only advantage that I can see over the stock air box is that they look better - but that is of course, very subjective.

As Lucky says, they can be made to work, and well too - if you don't mind putting the work (and dosh) in to get them right. I can totally understand those that say they're just not worth the bother. It really doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to undo what years of R&D at Honda has come up with.

A couple of suggestions if you do go down the pod route. First off, get decent ones - K&N or S&B are both good choices. For normal road use, I don't oil 'em - they're finnicky bastards and too much oil will upset the jetting. Second, make sure you support your carbs (wired to frame?)as without the airbox all the weight will be hanging on the unobtanium inlet rubbers.

Third - if you did a search for this you sure as hell didn't do it on this site!

Some excellent advice.

Offline Retro Rocket

  • Eggs are hard due too a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,279
  • ROCK & ROLL
Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #192 on: June 27, 2014, 05:42:06 PM »
You can make pods work.
You need to tell us the year and model.
If it is the 77-78 model I can give you very exact info.

Every other concern must already be fixed. Carbs last.
Would you mind elaborating on this?
I have pods and "stubby" exhaust (4 in 4)
Thanks

There is a BIG difference between making them "work" and actually having a great running bike...., Pods on stock carbs will NEVER work as well as the air box unless the pods have some sort of velocity stack built in...

Hey Mick - you ever tire of typing that?!   

Maybe we should start replying "Pods are great! Will increase HP by 10-15% and no more hassles getting the carbies on!!!"                        NOT.

No Steve because most people don't realize that the CB's induction was engineered to all work together as one, thats why the stock carbs have velocity stacks, not all stock carbs are as finicky as the Kehins, the stock Keihin's perform best with the stock induction system, pods are a compromise, more for looks than go and are really designed for top end performance, if you get them working well for top end, low end or midrange performance usually suffers...... 8)
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline dave500

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 16,993
  • WHAT?no gravy?
Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #193 on: June 27, 2014, 06:11:44 PM »
and they sound #$%*ty,and get wet,and get dirty fast,and don't filter well anyway.

Offline Vinhead1957

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,196
Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #194 on: June 27, 2014, 06:27:25 PM »
When I was a kid, they looked cool with the Kerker and I was trying burn the back wheel off. Today, I know how much all that costs. I would settle for a great coastal ride at 35 mph with the sun in my face and salt air in my lungs!

Offline dave500

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 16,993
  • WHAT?no gravy?
Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #195 on: June 27, 2014, 06:48:57 PM »
we use pods to keep the salt out of our lungs.

Offline scottly

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,262
  • Humboldt, AZ
Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #196 on: June 27, 2014, 07:00:45 PM »
we use pods to keep the salt out of our lungs.
I gotta ask Dave, what oil (filter snot) do you use?? ;D ;D
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....

Offline dave500

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 16,993
  • WHAT?no gravy?
Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #197 on: June 27, 2014, 11:23:44 PM »
a light misting with beer.

Offline Thamuz

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 171
Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #198 on: June 29, 2014, 12:15:15 AM »
Some of us are on a mission to acquire a working airbox.  In the meantime to get on the road we have to use these pods.

I havw a 77 CB55f, the 4 into 1 exhaust and some ugly muffler.  I did spring for the k&N pods.  What I did wuth these was found a piece of PVC that was thin enough to match the carb throats, and cut 4 of the same length.  got them inside the pods, put them in, and made "velocity" stacks.  Not the right thing, but it did make the bike run a lot better.  there is a still room between the pvc and top of the pod. 

My only issue is jetting right now.  I have stock ones on both slow and main.  I was thinking of going to 105 mains and a 40 slow.  I know, it won't run right, but I am missing a whole box.

I know on my other bikes I am saving that box and rebuilding it ;)
1979 Yami Chopper XS1100s
1978 CB750k
1977 CB550F
1974 CB550k
Parts bike for the 550's

Offline scottly

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,262
  • Humboldt, AZ
Re: Pods. What do you think?
« Reply #199 on: June 29, 2014, 06:13:51 PM »
Some of us are on a mission to acquire a working airbox.  In the meantime to get on the road we have to use these pods.


Good point, and one I've brought up before. ;) Every pod thread has 10 posts about how they can't work, for every post about how they worked, after re-jetting. The useable information tends to get buried by rhetoric and sometimes humorous "scientific" explanations. ::)
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....