Topic: Pods. What do you think?

[Lostboy Steve]

....and almost every time this happens.... Can't we all just get along?

[Vinhead1957]

As popular as an oil thread!

[Sticky Gerbil]

I actually replaced my pods with four leaf blowers, one for each carb. Here's an artist's rendition of how that looks. Note the red bandanna (crucial to the design).

[Bodi]

This is the internet - of course we are never going to "get along". The civility here is actually quite amazing when compared to most forums.
Years (decades) ago I put pods (plus exhaust and many engine mods, so carb tuning was required regardless) on the 400F I still have. i was younger and stupider. I had lots of time to work on the bike. Multiple Keihin jet sizes were still available from Honda and there were several dealers in the area. I had plenty of nearby police-free deserted straight flat roads to do the countless plug shops needed.
It took much more time than was reasonable to get the carbs tuned.
Now I have no complaints, no caveats or "buts". The bike works as well or better than than any stock airbox fitted one I have ridden - limiting that to 70s "SJM" models of course. I have no problems with rain - no noticeable effect in a torrential downpour, and I don't understand how that would cause a problem: the filters may get wet but the water just sucks in and that's that.
I might have the OEM airbox etc somewhere in a box but I doubt if I will never use it.
My opinion is that - on at least the 400F - it is possible to tune for pods.
I do not recommend it to anyone. The stock airbox works well and the process of tuning is laborious and challenging. OEM jets are no longer readily available. Plug chops invite speeding or stunting (in Ontario at least) tickets. Unless you own an EGA dyno, the hours required mean using one will bankrupt you. You will re/re the carbs a hundred times or so, balance them dozens of times. The needed reprofiling of the needles is a trial and error process where removing too much metal is always a risk... and that destroys the needles and all the profiling work so far. New needles are, of course, NLA.
Particularly for an otherwise stock bike, don't even think about it. Carb work is a PITA: if it works, don't fix it.
Of course you can just put the pods on and install a larger main jet and a smaller pilot jet. That gets you close, but you will definitely have stumbles and flat spots.
The various "pods can't work" theories of carb throat flow, pressure, and turbulence are interesting: remember that, theoretically, a bumblebee can not fly. Keihin and Honda did a decent job fitting a working filter and induction system into the available space given by the designers. Keihin and Honda were not omnipotent and the fuel system is, like everything else, a compromise. Just because it's what the factory chose does not make it perfect or even ideal.
Pods have advantages in size and appearance, and lots of disadvantages as well - using them is just another compromise.
If you don't like them, don't use them. Simple, huh?

[buffalogt750]

 My '76 CB550 has a 650 cam, stock exhaust and pods (the cheapest, crappiest I could find, EMGO's) I had to shorten the outer pods and modify the choke lever to fit them. Carbs have 115 mains and float levels are lowered about 1/8 of an inch. All other carb settings are stock. Been that way for 6 years. Bike has 29,000 miles on it. I commute about 3000 miles a year and get about 43 MPG using 10% ethanol 87 octane gas. I wouldn't dare say that it runs good around this forum but it works quite well for me.

[Powderman]

I still say the biggest argument in favor of pods are from riders who have never ridden a truly good running bike. The ones that say they run great would be hard pressed to show a dyno result better than they could have achieved with a stock air box and the same amount of tuning time that went into trying to make the pods work.

[Lostboy Steve]

I actually replaced my pods with four leaf blowers, one for each carb. Here's an artist's rendition of how that looks. Note the red bandanna (crucial to the design).

haha. awesome. Heres a video of something similar. If you really want to be a hooligan you'd put giant pods on the inlet of the blowers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiFiwFlH1s0

[Retro Rocket]

I still say the biggest argument in favor of pods are from riders who have never ridden a truly good running bike. The ones that say they run great would be hard pressed to show a dyno result better than they could have achieved with a stock air box and the same amount of tuning time that went into trying to make the pods work.

Exactly, and even more obvious when i see things like this..

no noticeable effect in a torrential downpour, and I don't understand how that would cause a problem: the filters may get wet but the water just sucks in and that's that.

 

[mcswny]

This is the internet - of course we are never going to "get along". The civility here is actually quite amazing when compared to most forums.
Years (decades) ago I put pods (plus exhaust and many engine mods, so carb tuning was required regardless) on the 400F I still have. i was younger and stupider. I had lots of time to work on the bike. Multiple Keihin jet sizes were still available from Honda and there were several dealers in the area. I had plenty of nearby police-free deserted straight flat roads to do the countless plug shops needed.
It took much more time than was reasonable to get the carbs tuned.
Now I have no complaints, no caveats or "buts". The bike works as well or better than than any stock airbox fitted one I have ridden - limiting that to 70s "SJM" models of course. I have no problems with rain - no noticeable effect in a torrential downpour, and I don't understand how that would cause a problem: the filters may get wet but the water just sucks in and that's that.
I might have the OEM airbox etc somewhere in a box but I doubt if I will never use it.
My opinion is that - on at least the 400F - it is possible to tune for pods.
I do not recommend it to anyone. The stock airbox works well and the process of tuning is laborious and challenging. OEM jets are no longer readily available. Plug chops invite speeding or stunting (in Ontario at least) tickets. Unless you own an EGA dyno, the hours required mean using one will bankrupt you. You will re/re the carbs a hundred times or so, balance them dozens of times. The needed reprofiling of the needles is a trial and error process where removing too much metal is always a risk... and that destroys the needles and all the profiling work so far. New needles are, of course, NLA.
Particularly for an otherwise stock bike, don't even think about it. Carb work is a PITA: if it works, don't fix it.
Of course you can just put the pods on and install a larger main jet and a smaller pilot jet. That gets you close, but you will definitely have stumbles and flat spots.
The various "pods can't work" theories of carb throat flow, pressure, and turbulence are interesting: remember that, theoretically, a bumblebee can not fly. Keihin and Honda did a decent job fitting a working filter and induction system into the available space given by the designers. Keihin and Honda were not omnipotent and the fuel system is, like everything else, a compromise. Just because it's what the factory chose does not make it perfect or even ideal.
Pods have advantages in size and appearance, and lots of disadvantages as well - using them is just another compromise.
If you don't like them, don't use them. Simple, huh?

one of the better, more logical, thought out, and explained answers i've heard in awhile! Thank you for taking the time. And yeah, definitely keeping my airbox.

[Stoli]

This is the internet - of course we are never going to "get along". The civility here is actually quite amazing when compared to most forums.
Years (decades) ago I put pods (plus exhaust and many engine mods, so carb tuning was required regardless) on the 400F I still have. i was younger and stupider. I had lots of time to work on the bike. Multiple Keihin jet sizes were still available from Honda and there were several dealers in the area. I had plenty of nearby police-free deserted straight flat roads to do the countless plug shops needed.
It took much more time than was reasonable to get the carbs tuned.
Now I have no complaints, no caveats or "buts". The bike works as well or better than than any stock airbox fitted one I have ridden - limiting that to 70s "SJM" models of course. I have no problems with rain - no noticeable effect in a torrential downpour, and I don't understand how that would cause a problem: the filters may get wet but the water just sucks in and that's that.
I might have the OEM airbox etc somewhere in a box but I doubt if I will never use it.
My opinion is that - on at least the 400F - it is possible to tune for pods.
I do not recommend it to anyone. The stock airbox works well and the process of tuning is laborious and challenging. OEM jets are no longer readily available. Plug chops invite speeding or stunting (in Ontario at least) tickets. Unless you own an EGA dyno, the hours required mean using one will bankrupt you. You will re/re the carbs a hundred times or so, balance them dozens of times. The needed reprofiling of the needles is a trial and error process where removing too much metal is always a risk... and that destroys the needles and all the profiling work so far. New needles are, of course, NLA.
Particularly for an otherwise stock bike, don't even think about it. Carb work is a PITA: if it works, don't fix it.
Of course you can just put the pods on and install a larger main jet and a smaller pilot jet. That gets you close, but you will definitely have stumbles and flat spots.
The various "pods can't work" theories of carb throat flow, pressure, and turbulence are interesting: remember that, theoretically, a bumblebee can not fly. Keihin and Honda did a decent job fitting a working filter and induction system into the available space given by the designers. Keihin and Honda were not omnipotent and the fuel system is, like everything else, a compromise. Just because it's what the factory chose does not make it perfect or even ideal.
Pods have advantages in size and appearance, and lots of disadvantages as well - using them is just another compromise.
If you don't like them, don't use them. Simple, huh?

one of the better, more logical, thought out, and explained answers i've heard in awhile! Thank you for taking the time. And yeah, definitely keeping my pods.

[Bodi]

"even more obvious when i see things like this"
Huh? A bit of water being pulled into the carbs does absolutely no damage. In fact, water injection is not unusual on high performance engines. What's your problem?

[TwoTired]

Huh? A bit of water being pulled into the carbs does absolutely no damage. In fact, water injection is not unusual on high performance engines. What's your problem?

Depends.  A paper element pod will distort with water saturation, compressing fibers and changing pressure drop/flow characteristics.  Or, will you always replace any pod that get water on it?

A foam element relies on oil and a twisty air path to trap particles.  Wash the foam with water and in goes all that dirt that was trapped.  Probably some with a paper filter also.  No, the degradation/engine life cost is not instant.

I don't think water injected engines use dirty water.

[dave500]

water injection is controlled after the throttles,having rain remain soaked in carb mouths isn't exactly controlled,the thought of water making its way through the airbleed circuits and into emulsion and slow jets makes me cringe,i can almost hear the slides growing white corrosion.

[scottly]

Just how is all this water getting to the filters? There is only an inch or two of foam exposed on either side of my bike, and the rest is hidden under the side covers.

[dave500]

I guess some remove the plastic rear inner splash guard?

[Retro Rocket]

"even more obvious when i see things like this"
Huh? A bit of water being pulled into the carbs does absolutely no damage. In fact, water injection is not unusual on high performance engines. What's your problem?

Bodi, thats another rather simplistic post with no reasonable understanding of just how water injection works, not to mention what water  does to the state of tune of the bike as its ingested, try some water in your fuel some time and see how that goes..?.  My problem is your summation is wrong and I state that for others to learn from....

Just how is all this water getting to the filters? There is only an inch or two of foam exposed on either side of my bike, and the rest is hidden under the side covers.

There's plenty of posts on the forum saying that water being ingested and cross winds are a problem, I didn't find it that hard to believe and would expect it especially if its p1ssing down rain, it was a huge problem on my mates 750 chopper .... .... Scott, you're running webers aren't you, that would put your filters further back...? 

[scottly]

My filters may be a bit further back, but overall they are covered from the rain by the seat, side-covers, and my legs. I've ridden many a wet mile, including a fair amount near where Lloyd lives, and have never had a water contaminated filter issue, even after letting the bike sit outside in the rain for a full work shift.

[scottly]

Bodi and buffalogt, thank you for sharing your first hand experiences.

[scottly]

I guess some remove the plastic rear inner splash guard?

That's the only thing I can think of, Dave. Can't really blame the filters in that case...