Author Topic: blowing condensers regularly (Read 12020 times)

crazypj · « **Reply #25 on:** October 02, 2013, 01:26:56 PM »

Not really relevant but I thought maybe interesting?
Around 2000 as a result of industrial espionage, a 'new' formula for electrolytic capacitors was stolen.
Unfortunately, it didn't work and literally millions of capacitors in computers, etc failed
The 'truth' didn't appear until around 2005 when a lot of manufacturers had to replace boards under 'warranty'
I missed out by a few months as I didn't know about the warranty request, I'm repairing mobo with new caps to build a Win 98 box so I can run software that won't run on Win 98 emulator in Vista or Win 7

74750k4 · « **Reply #26 on:** October 02, 2013, 01:33:24 PM »

Got a link for that info...?

crazypj · « **Reply #27 on:** October 02, 2013, 01:35:51 PM »

I had one, but, I had a hard drive fail without warning so lost a lot of stuff
This isn't the article I had but Wikki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague

lucky · « **Reply #28 on:** October 02, 2013, 01:57:32 PM »

You cannot measure Micro farads with a volt ohm meter.
You would have no way to determine if they have absorbed the maximum.

2wheels · « **Reply #29 on:** October 02, 2013, 02:36:41 PM »

I would actually check the capacitors with an ohm meter to see if they are shorted out.

Don't some multimeter s have a capacitor function to measure micro farads?

If they are not shorted out (meaning they have less than one ohm) then I wonder why they would effect the spark.
My understanding is capacitors save the points from burning, that they are not necessary to create spark. Although I have to admit I have never tried to run an engine without the capacitor.

74750k4 · « **Reply #30 on:** October 02, 2013, 04:44:38 PM »

When the points open, the field collapses, but having a capacitor to charge up, makes that happen a lot quicker, giving even more energy impressed across both the primary, and secondary of the coil. Hotter, longer duration spark.

"The capacitor has two functions: 1) it absorbs the back EMF from the magnetic field in the coil to minimize point contact burning and maximize point life; and 2) it forms a resonant circuit with the primary coil of the ignition coil transferring further energy to the secondary side until the energy is exhausted.[1] The Kettering system became the primary ignition system for many years in the automotive industry due to its lower cost, higher reliability and relative simplicity.[2]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignition_system

Here's an old favorite.. a points saver circuit that is easily switched back to standard. You would need two for our bikes. Also that old Germanium transistor should be changed to modern day Silicon.

http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~wkahan/TransIgn.pdf

HondaMan · « **Reply #31 on:** October 02, 2013, 04:57:58 PM »

PJ: I think you forgot the decimal point? The condensors are .22uf-.26uf tolerance range.

This post echoes something we saw about 2 years ago: a bad bunch of condensors that turned out to be...Daiichi.

They strike again.

The Honda condensors of the 'old days' were well-sealed units that, if used once in 12 months, had a polymer-wax dielectric that would refurbish itself pretty well (TEC design) for another 2-3 months. If they were used more regularly, they lasted for YEARS, like mine: I rode 12 months of the year unless there was too much ice on the road. Until 2006, I used exactly 4 sets of condensors in 136k miles. Since then, I used up a set of Daiichi until I switched to the prototype HM ignition, and I had to disconnect those when the testing started because they were leaking so much it delayed the spark above 2500 RPM, and made the idle erratic below that. When I would try to purr along in 1st at, say, 2000 RPM, it would snatch and sputter. Disconnecting them led to my early posts during the development of this gadget that said "run without condensors", which I've since capitulated: running with GOOD condensors does a whole lot of good with my box, especially in heavy traffic.

I have 8 of the Daiichi condenors in a box, have been afraid to use them since 2years ago(!). Most of the HM ignitions out there are running with 20+ year-old OEM condensors, and work fine.

InTheStreet · « **Reply #32 on:** October 02, 2013, 05:45:38 PM »

I never had a Daichi condenser last more than 500 miles. Got 2 different ones, depending how much I paid for the kit. The green wires were slightly better than the blue wired ones. I gave up and went electronic ignition. I went through six of the Diachi condensers in less than 1500 miles. They all failed and started grounding out to the points plate, stealing all power from the points. The blue wire ones lasted 40 miles.

crazypj · « **Reply #33 on:** October 02, 2013, 07:42:55 PM »

Thanks HM, I did forget, it's why I just about always put zero in front of decimals (0.22~0.26uf)

RSchaefer · « **Reply #34 on:** October 03, 2013, 07:22:29 AM »

Do not mean to high jack the thread but I was thinking HondMan recommended leaving in the condenser when using his ignition?

Deltarider · « **Reply #35 on:** October 03, 2013, 10:17:23 AM »

Quote

http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~wkahan/TransIgn.pdf

Ahh... the Peugeot 404. I drove several. The first transistorized ignition (Velleman) I built was to be mounted on the later 504 however. The 404 like Prof. Kahan had, had the most comfortable front seats (fauteuils) ever in the entire automotive history.

HondaMan · « **Reply #36 on:** October 03, 2013, 12:21:30 PM »

Quote from: RSchaefer on October 03, 2013, 07:22:29 AM

Do not mean to high jack the thread but I was thinking HondMan recommended leaving in the condenser when using his ignition?

Absolutely. It smoothes out the vagaries of the mechanical points cam, making the bike idle better and stronger when cold.

HondaMan · « **Reply #37 on:** October 03, 2013, 12:28:11 PM »

Quote from: lucky on October 02, 2013, 01:57:32 PM

You cannot measure Micro farads with a volt ohm meter.
You would have no way to determine if they have absorbed the maximum.

Actually, you can: if you insert a 10 megohm resistor between your voltmeter + lead and the capacitor/condensor, and use this formula:

t=5*(R*C)

for full charge. If you used this arrangement for a 1.5 volt analog voltmeter (using OHMS x 1 scale), then you can calculate the capacitance as:

C=t/5R

where 't' is in seconds, R is in ohms (10 million here, or 100 million, if you can find one of those resistors somewhere - which would make this process easier, BTW), and C is in farads. so, you just connect the meter, stopwatch how long it takes to show full-scale deflection, then divide those seconds (or part of, use a digital stopwatch for ease), then divide the result by 1 million to get uF.

Simple, huh?

Deltarider · « **Reply #38 on:** October 03, 2013, 01:06:48 PM »

An insufficient capacity could be due to a bad isolation of the centre and the body of the capacitor. You can check it's resistance after you have decharged it.
When it reads over 5000 Ohms isolation is good;
Between 1000 and 5000 Ohms it is satisfactory.
Below 1000 Ohms isolation is bad.
Tip: donate your DMM to somebody you like and buy yourself an automotive one that has Tach, Dwell (I prefer Duty Cycle BTW), Capacity and Temperature (besides Volts, Ohms, Diode and Amps ofcourse). They are not expensive anymore. But keep in mind: for some tasks an anologue meter is more convenient.
Capacity should be between 0,22 and 0,26 microFarad. Below 0,18 uF they are toast.
I have used Daiichi capacitors without problems. Maybe they were from Japan. BTW, I never thought it was possible one could produce bad condensors.

mono · « **Reply #39 on:** October 07, 2013, 09:42:35 AM »

Thanks, everybody!

A lot of the points here are good ones (pardon the pun! haha). Unfortunately I don't have a fancy multimeter to test the capacitance(?) of the dead ones, but to answer several comments YES these new ones that I'm using (and which are failing quickly) are the Daichi brand.

Both me and the owner of the place I bought them speculated that it may be a bad batch, but he said that no one else has come back to him with the same problem. He replaced my 1st set for free, and I bought another set as backups. He said he doesn't have access to any other brands, and the OEM ones are very expensive (around $30/ea, which I'm not paying).

Right now I've reinstalled my ORIGINAL condensers (the ones with TEK stamped on them) and the bike is running well. I've been waiting for a dry day to go put them through the rigors to see if one will die, and it looks like this week is going to be nice and sunny and dry, so tonight or tomorrow night I'll load up my toolbag and go take a nice blitz out to the countryside to see if i can break down again somewhere that's at least scenic.

Deltarider · « **Reply #40 on:** October 07, 2013, 10:58:02 AM »

Quote

and go take a nice blitz out to the countryside to see if i can break down again somewhere that's at least scenic.

Aaahh... that's the spirit all right!

mono · « **Reply #41 on:** October 07, 2013, 11:31:30 AM »

Quote from: Deltarider on October 07, 2013, 10:58:02 AM

Quote
and go take a nice blitz out to the countryside to see if i can break down again somewhere that's at least scenic.
Aaahh... that's the spirit all right!

it's also far less embarrassing to break down where cows are your only witnesses.

HondaMan · « **Reply #42 on:** October 07, 2013, 12:09:47 PM »

Quote from: mono on October 07, 2013, 09:42:35 AM

Thanks, everybody!

A lot of the points here are good ones (pardon the pun! haha). Unfortunately I don't have a fancy multimeter to test the capacitance(?) of the dead ones, but to answer several comments YES these new ones that I'm using (and which are failing quickly) are the Daichi brand.

Both me and the owner of the place I bought them speculated that it may be a bad batch, but he said that no one else has come back to him with the same problem. He replaced my 1st set for free, and I bought another set as backups. He said he doesn't have access to any other brands, and the OEM ones are very expensive (around $30/ea, which I'm not paying).

Right now I've reinstalled my ORIGINAL condensers (the ones with TEK stamped on them) and the bike is running well. I've been waiting for a dry day to go put them through the rigors to see if one will die, and it looks like this week is going to be nice and sunny and dry, so tonight or tomorrow night I'll load up my toolbag and go take a nice blitz out to the countryside to see if i can break down again somewhere that's at least scenic.

Those TEC are the best of the best!

mono · « **Reply #43 on:** October 07, 2013, 01:20:23 PM »

is it TEC ? i thought so, but my MC shop guy corrected me to "TEK". either way, that's good to know. would love to get my hands on a new set!

74750k4 · « **Reply #44 on:** October 07, 2013, 04:43:45 PM »

Kinda makes ya' wonder how many perfectly good TEC caps were thrown out, in the name of "Doin a TuneUp"...

kammery · « **Reply #45 on:** October 07, 2013, 04:59:40 PM »

What is your charging system doing ? Amps and volts ? Drive it and look at the points . If there is metal build up on the negative side of points it over capacitive .If the metal is on the positive side it's under capacitive . Possibly the coil is shorting out internally . Electricity is lazy it always takes the shortest path to ground.

TwoTired · « **Reply #46 on:** October 07, 2013, 05:31:28 PM »

Quote from: 74750k4 on October 07, 2013, 04:43:45 PM

Kinda makes ya' wonder how many perfectly good TEC caps were thrown out, in the name of "Doin a TuneUp"...

Lots I'm sure. Also as many point sets that could have seen 5X service life with a bit of point file action.

crazypj · « **Reply #47 on:** October 07, 2013, 06:48:44 PM »

Can you still get pints files?
The ones I have are probably 30 yrs old

Brantley · « **Reply #48 on:** October 07, 2013, 09:29:29 PM »

Quote

Can you still get pints files?
The ones I have are probably 30 yrs old

Sears. "Ignition File". Your 30 year old ones probably still work better...

TwoTired · « **Reply #49 on:** October 07, 2013, 10:14:34 PM »

Quote from: crazypj on October 07, 2013, 06:48:44 PM

Can you still get pints files?

Mine are old, too. But, you can get them at electronic supply places, rather than your local auto parts store, as it used to be.

Google found several sources, as well as the burnishing tool to use after the file.

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Author Topic: blowing condensers regularly (Read 12020 times)