Author Topic: CDI ignitors from CB 900 to cb650  (Read 3665 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

colvinch

  • Guest
CDI ignitors from CB 900 to cb650
« on: August 24, 2006, 10:12:37 AM »
Does any one know if a set of CDI ignotors from an 81 cb900 will work on a 81 cb650?  The connections look the same but not sure it the 650 puts out enough voltage to give these adequate spark. 

I'm still having problems with my charging system, I've gone through everything, checked all the connections and grounds( that I can find) and replaced all parts in the alternator pathway, but I can't get anything over 12V to the battery, I can get about 20-25 miles down before the new battery is drained.  I'm hoping that the charred backs of the CDi ignitors are the place that I'm losing my voltage but don't know.

Thanks in advance

Chris
« Last Edit: August 24, 2006, 10:48:23 AM by colvinch »

colvinch

  • Guest
Re: CDI ignitors from CB 900 to cb650
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2006, 10:46:53 AM »
Yeah sorry about that a 81 cb900 to a 81 cb650.  Do you know if this could be a possible draw of voltage if the back of it is fried out and the black stuff is all melted?

Offline scunny

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,613
  • don't call me expert
Re: CDI ignitors from CB 900 to cb650
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2006, 11:49:59 AM »
yes the ignitors are the same, can't help on the current draw on your old ones( to early in the morning here for my brain to work)
past-cb100,ts250,cb500,cb500,gs1000,gs650g.phillips traveller
present-CB 650 retro
            VTR1000F3
           XL250S riverbed rocket
           TS250[sold]
           TS185[sold]
           XL125S[sold]
           MT50 (white)
           MT50 (red)[sold]
           KN250/XS400 project
           XR/XL250 bitsa under construction
           SL100[sold]
           XL250R
           pedal(pub bike) leaks oil
my gallery http://gallery.sohc4.net/members/personal/scunny

Ibsen

  • Guest
Re: CDI ignitors from CB 900 to cb650
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2006, 12:28:12 PM »
If it's the OKI 200 they should be the same.

You can also test the ones that you have got:

LINK


Offline Pinhead

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,818
  • 1979 CB652-ST
Re: CDI ignitors from CB 900 to cb650
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2006, 12:50:24 PM »
The ignitors won't drain your battery and use up all of the power of your alternator (if indeed the alt is charging). If they were drawing that much current the wires would be red-hot and smoking right now. You've still got an alternator problem.

It's much easier to troubleshoot the CB650's alternator if you know how it works. Generally an alternator consists of 4 parts: A field coil, stator, regulator, and rectifier. The CB650's has the regulator and rectifier combined into 1 unit, abbreviated as a R/R. The field coil, usually called a "rotor" rotates inside the stator which is stationary. The magnetic field from the rotor causes the stator to produce a voltage and source current. Your stator is where you get the power to charge your system. After the AC voltage leaves the stator, it goes through a rectifier (changes AC into DC) and then a regulator. On older systems, the rotors were of the permanent magnet type, in other words, basically a magnet spinning around inside the stator. In those systems, the voltage is regulated after it leaves the stator, usually using a "zener diode" which is a device that only allows a set voltage "across" it, while sending all of the excess voltage to ground. Our 650s use a more efficient method, however. Instead of having a permanent magnet, we use an electromagnet. Changing the current going through the electromagnet (the rotor) changes the strengh of the magnetic field, therefore regulating the power coming out of the stator.

When battery voltage is low, the regulator puts the full voltage of the battery across the rotor, which makes a strong magnetic field. This in turn increases the output of the stator, charging the battery. Once the battery gets to its desired voltage, the regulator slowly decreases the voltage across the rotor until the battery voltage is stead at the predetermined voltage, usually from 13.5 to 14.4 volts. To figure out why your battery isn't charging, you have to check all 4 of the components (in our case, 3, since we have 1 R/R).

Here's how I test the charging system on my 650:

1) Remove the alternator housing and test the resistance of the rotor (field coil). It should be somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 ohms. I've heard of resistance as low as 4 and as high as 10 working. If it reads good, resistance-wise, you know the coil is good.

2) If your rotor measures good, put it all back together and test the resistance of the rotor at the wiring harness. It will be the plug with 5 wires. Three yellow's and 2 "other colors." The two "other" wires are the voltage supply to the field coil. Disconnect those two wires, and with the engine running hook jumpers between these wires and the + and - battery terminals. Basically supply "full battery voltage" across the rotor. With a volt meter, watch your battery voltage. If your alternator is working, your battery voltage should rise as you rev the engine. If it does, than you know your "alternator" (rotor and stator) is working. If the voltage doesn't rise, go on to #3.

3) Since your battery voltage didn't rise with RPM, you need to verify your stator is working. Leave the two other wires connected to the battery and with your voltmeter set to VAC (50 volts or more) check the voltage across two of the three yellow wires. With the engine running above 3k rpm you should get anywhere from 40 to 50 volts (AC) out of each of those wires. You check "across two of the three wires," not from each wire to ground. If you get the AC voltage out, continue to #4. If you're not getting AC voltage out, you've got a bad stator. Once again, verify your rotor is the desired resistance, and that the same resistance is showing across the 2 wires on the connector. If the right resistance is verified at the connector, you need to replace your stator and start over.

4) Since you're getting AC voltage out of the stator, you know your rotor and stator are good. Next comes the regulator/rectifier and wiring. I don't know of any really good way to check the R/R, so I'll just go through how to verify your wiring is good. There should be two connectors coming out of your regulator. One has the 5 wires that we were working with before, and the other has 3 wires. Black, Red, and Green. This is where my memory gets fuzzy. I'll be back, going to hook up my voltmeter and verify voltage, etc. Be right back!
« Last Edit: August 24, 2006, 01:20:52 PM by Pinhead »
Doug

Click --> Cheap Regulator/Rectifier for any of Honda's 3-phase charging systems (all SOHC4's).

GM HEI Ignition Conversion

Quote from: TwoTired
By the way, I'm going for the tinfoil pants...so they can't read my private thoughts.
:D

colvinch

  • Guest
Re: CDI ignitors from CB 900 to cb650
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2006, 02:46:44 PM »
Thanks for the tips, you are a genius with this stuff..where do you live anywhere near Michigan. 

I'm a little scared pulling the wires out of the harness, I don't want to screw up a potentially good connector.  I will try and get some spare wires to hook this up and start from the beginning...again.  Why are these bikes such a pain in the arse when it comes to charging and is there a way to fix all this another way??? thanks again

Do you think hot or cold makes a difference with these tests?

Offline Pinhead

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,818
  • 1979 CB652-ST
Re: CDI ignitors from CB 900 to cb650
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2006, 02:58:23 PM »
I'm in Kansas City.

It may be easier to build a batch of "jumpers" using male and female spade connectors to fit between the two harnesses so you don't have to take the harness apart.

I don't think temperature will effect the readings, though it's usually temperature that causes the system to quit working in the first place. Generally there's two faults. The first is engine heat. Sitting in traffic idling, the engine gets pretty hot. Since the rotor is on the end of the crankshaft, it absorbs a lot of that heat. The insulation around the wires in the rotor is pretty thin, so some of it will melt and short out. This short causes a ton of current to be pulled from the regulator section of the R/R. The R/R isn't built to source that kind of current, so it either shorts or opens. If it shorts, your alternator will be constantly charging, and you'll boil your battery if you're lucky. If you're not luckly, you'll boil your battery, burn out all of your electrics, pop fuses, and fry your stator. If the regulator "opens" you simply won't charge. Unlucky for me my rotor shorted and I had to replace the regulator as well. Lucky for me, though, I did a little research and found a cheap replacement regulator. Check the link in my sig.

It can happen another way, though. The R/R can go bad with age, short out, and constantly charge your electrical system, which would have the same effects as above. I'm not truly sure which is more common, but the end result is always the same. The rotor is shorted out and the R/R is fried.

Edit: The replacement regulator in my sig should make the entire system much more stable and reliable. It would basically eliminate the voltage swings that the system normally has to endure, which puts less stress on the components. If you've got a good, fully charged battery it should last you a long time. I'm going to try to make a "how to" in the near future.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2006, 03:11:04 PM by Pinhead »
Doug

Click --> Cheap Regulator/Rectifier for any of Honda's 3-phase charging systems (all SOHC4's).

GM HEI Ignition Conversion

Quote from: TwoTired
By the way, I'm going for the tinfoil pants...so they can't read my private thoughts.
:D

colvinch

  • Guest
Re: CDI ignitors from CB 900 to cb650
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2006, 03:13:21 PM »
I started with the stator not thinking too much about the system.  Turned out I had a fried R/R as well, once I got the bike going I fried my new stator.  So then I got a new/used  R/R...that turned out getting fried as well.  So I got all new stuff, rotor, stator and R/R (these are all used but seem to test fine) and still the problem.  So now I'm going to start over and check everything...again.  thanks for the tips.

I really like this bike and don't want to part with it...but its getting close to the auction block

chris