Author Topic: 72 CB 500 Stator Issue  (Read 2290 times)

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Offline pancakeshake

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72 CB 500 Stator Issue
« on: October 08, 2013, 07:38:42 pm »
Heeey guys,

So im almost done the CB500 I have been workin on for a while now. Have the bike running nice, but the charging circuit isnt being friendly.

I bought one of the eBay Regulator / Rectifiers for the bike. The wires coming out of it differ from the wiring diagram, but not a whole lot.

VOLTAGE TESTS:
-   With the bike running it shows about .02vDC, and when I rev it u it makes it to around .5vDC or so. Not enough...
-   I also checked running VAC between each wire ad it was low, around .2 VAC (Between yellow wires)

RESISTANCE TESTS:
-   Resistance between the yellow wires and got about 1ohm between each combination
-   Resistance between green and white, field coil, 5ohms

RANDOM QUESTIONS:
-   One thing I noticed is that the stator is always dry after trying it (not covered in oil), does it need to be in oil to work properly?
-   The generator rotor was very rusty, so i threw it on the lathe and cleaned it up a bunch. Not sure if thats bad for it or not, only took off a few thousandths. Is that bad?

The picture below shows how it is wired.

3 Yellow = 3 Yellow from bike
Black = Ground
Red = Voltage test wire (looking for 12v, charging circuit wire)
Green = Field coil, green
White = Field coil, white

Basically, anyone know why the voltage is so damn low?

Thanks guys


Offline dave500

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Re: 72 CB 500 Stator Issue
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2013, 08:30:44 pm »
the specs call for 0.35 ohm in the stator,also check the stator yellows to its frame,should be no continuity,and it runs dry.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 08:42:16 pm by dave500 »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 72 CB 500 Stator Issue
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2013, 10:42:09 pm »

3 Yellow = 3 Yellow from bike
Black = Ground
Red = Voltage test wire (looking for 12v, charging circuit wire)
Green = Field coil, green
White = Field coil, white

Basically, anyone know why the voltage is so damn low?

Thanks guys

Since we don't have specs. for your regulator or what it was from.  I'll warn that not all manufacturers follow Honda color convention.

Honda convention is that Black = 12V from key switch.
Green is ground or battery neg.

One check is to see if the green and white wires have voltage across them when you expect the alternator to make power.  This energizes the electromagnet.  No magnet- no power output.  You could wire those alternator wires directly to the battery terminals for a quick test,  Green = neg.
If it now produces power, you become the regulator.  Don't let it raise the battery voltage above 15V.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2013, 11:42:36 am by TwoTired »
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline bryanj

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Re: 72 CB 500 Stator Issue
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2013, 06:55:47 am »
Taking any metal off the rotor is a bad idea.

Did you get a wiring diagram with the reg/rec as even momentary incorrect connection will junk it
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline pancakeshake

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Re: 72 CB 500 Stator Issue
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2013, 03:07:22 pm »
Bump:

So I just bought a "working" stator and rotor off ebay, and I have basically the same exact issue. If these things are impossible to kill as I read, whats going on?

Pat

Offline TwoTired

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Re: 72 CB 500 Stator Issue
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2013, 03:34:34 pm »
Charging system methodical verification checks, CB750, CB550, CB500, CB400, and CB350.

Begin with problem verification and characterization with recorded data.
A -- Fully charge a known good battery.  Let it rest for 2 hours, off the charger, and measure the battery voltage.  (Target is 12.6-12.8V.)
B -- Start the bike and measure the battery voltage at idle, 2000, 3000, 4000, and 5000 rpm.
C -- Repeat the measurements of B with lighting off.

The above tests identify charging system success, failure, or degree of "faulty".  The success voltages are listed in the Shop manual.

D -- Assuming the above indicates faulty, do check the RECTIFIER diodes with a diode tester or ohmmeter capable of testing diodes and uses more than .7 volts to make the test(s).
Of the twelve test made in D, six must read low ohms and six must read very high ohms.

E- assuming no faults were found in D,  Measure the white and green wires disconnected from the REGULATOR.  CB750s should 6.8 ohms - ish,  CB550s/350s/ and 400s should read 4.9 ohms- ish.

F- If there are no bullet holes or road rash/divots on the alternator case, the stator is probably good.  But, you can check for yellow to yellow continuity (.35 ohms) among all the wires, and that no yellow wire has continuity to the engine case.

G- Assuming no faults found in D, E, and F, measure the disconnected terminals of the REGULATOR.  The black and white terminals should measure zero ohms (subtract meter error if there is any).  Higher than Zero ohms, indicates internal contact contamination needing cleaning and attention per shop manual.

H - Assuming D, E, F, and G have not found faults. We can verify all the of the charging system minus the regulator is functioning correctly, by using a temporary jumper to connect the disconnected white wire (normally attached to the REGULATOR) and connecting the White directly to the the battery POS terminal.  Repeat the B and C tests.  However, if at any time the battery voltage rises above 15V, stop the test.  Such an indication would prove the charging system capable of maintaining a known good battery.  If this test never achieves 15V, then there is a wire/connector issue in either the ground path leading back to the battery NEG terminal, a wiring/ connector issue withe the rectifier RED path to the battery POS terminal, or you made a mistake in D through G.

I - (not used, can be confused with L)

J -  The only parts that remain to prove or expose are the REGULATOR (in active mode) and the electrical path between the battery POS terminal and the black wire that connects to the REGULATOR.

K - Lying to and starving the regulator
The regulator can only do its job correctly if it gets a proper voltage report of true battery voltage status.  The Vreg monitors the Black wire for this status.  Measuring the voltage lost between the Battery terminals and the Vreg connections identifies problems that are not really the charging system's fault.
Two connection paths must be checked, the Battery POS terminal to the Black wire connection at the VReg, and the Battery NEG terminal to the Green wire connection to the Vreg.  A volt meter can measure these losses directly by placing a probe between the two identified points, Black path and then the green path.  The numbers are summed and the error seen by the Vreg quantified.  Anything over .5V loss is cause for concern and anything over 1V is a certain issue to be corrected.  Each connector, terminal, fuse clip, or switch in the pathway can cause voltage reporting loss.

The regulator also passes the received voltage on to to the Alternator field coil to create a magnetic field within the alternator,  The voltage level determines the strength of the magnetic field and the maximum output capability of the alternator.  Therefore, starving  the Vreg of true battery voltage leads to reduced max output capability of the alternator.

L - regulator operation/verification.
  The Vreg sends voltage to the alternator field in response to measured voltage which is battery state of charge.  Any voltage at the battery of less than 13.5V sends full black wire voltage to the alternator's white wire.  The alternator output will vary with RPM, even if "told" to produce max power by the Vreg.  If the alternator has enough RPM to overcome system load, any excess power is routed to the battery which will raise the battery voltage (slowly if depleted and rapidly if nearly full).   When the battery reaches 14.5V, the regulator reduces the voltage to the alternator, reducing output strength and preventing battery overcharge.  If the battery exceeds 14.7V, the regulator clamps the alternator field coil power to zero (0V), effective shutting off the alternator.

Because, there is electrical load from the system, an alternator that is not producing power allows the battery to deplete and the voltage falls.  The Vreg responds by turning the alternator back on in accordance with battery state/ charge level.

The Vreg state changes can be monitored/verified by observing the battery voltage state, and the White wire to the alternator field.  (Two meters are handy for this.)  The "trip" voltages can be adjusted with the adjust screw, while changing engine RPM and electrical load that the bike presents to the battery/charging system to "make" the battery reach the voltage levels need for the set trip points.  IE. with load reduced (lighting off) and the engine above 2500 RPM, a charged battery will attain 14.5 V.  Anything above that and the adjust screw needs to be backed out to keep the battery safe from harm.
The shop manual outlines bench set up mechanical adjustments that should be performed on unknown or tampered units.  These should be resolved before final trip point adjust tuning.

Note that while the system is working, the Vreg can change states rapidly before your very eyes., changing 5 times or more while you blink.  Therefore, you may have to mentally average values measured on the White wire if your selected meter doesn't do that for you.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline pancakeshake

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Re: 72 CB 500 Stator Issue
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2013, 04:54:47 pm »
Im not using a stock regulator or rectifier on the bike. However, my problem lies elsewhere.

With the bike running I should see roughly 14v AC between the each yellow wire, correct? Well, im seeing about .3v AC.

THAT is where the problem begins, If i get 14v AC out of those wires, im sure everything else will output the right amount of power.

Field coil reads 5ohms, (good) Yellow wires read .8ohms (Bad?). I was told the part was a working one, so the guy must have fed me a line.

Anyone else ever seen this?

And if anyone feels super duper awesome, could you fire up your bike, disconnect the stator and measure the AC voltage across each yellow wire combo?

Thanks again.


Offline TwoTired

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Re: 72 CB 500 Stator Issue
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2013, 05:30:52 pm »
Im not using a stock regulator or rectifier on the bike. However, my problem lies elsewhere.
It still has to do similar things to make the alternator work.  Like providing voltage to the white and green wires to the field coil.
Check for voltage there?
The field coil is part of the electromagnet of the alternator.  No magnet, no power from the stator windings.

With the bike running I should see roughly 14v AC between the each yellow wire, correct? Well, im seeing about .3v AC.
No the stator should have somewhere in the 30-60 V range.
Your low voltage report makes me suspect that the filed coil isn't being driven with any voltage.

THAT is where the problem begins, If i get 14v AC out of those wires, im sure everything else will output the right amount of power.

Field coil reads 5ohms, (good) Yellow wires read .8ohms (Bad?). I was told the part was a working one, so the guy must have fed me a line.

No.  The alternator parts are almost certainly good.  Your wiring or your regulator needs to give the field coil some power to get it going.


You can wire the battery direct to the white green wires of the alternator, to test for alternator output. Stop the test if the battery goes above 15v, though.  Probably won't do that unless the engine is revved up, though.

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Fritz

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Re: 72 CB 500 Stator Issue
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2013, 06:59:20 pm »
Hey,

The picture below shows how it is wired.

3 Yellow = 3 Yellow from bike
Black = Ground
Red = Voltage test wire (looking for 12v, charging circuit wire)
Green = Field coil, green
White = Field coil, white

Basically, anyone know why the voltage is so damn low?

Yes: You should connect the red wire to battery +
Explanation: The generator does not have a permanent magnet. Instead it relies on the field coil's electromagnetic field to produce power.
That's why you  cannot run your bike without a battery. You did not connect the red wire to battery + and that's why your generator does not work. So you cannot test the charging circuit without connecting the battery. Also, it should be fully charged or you will not be able to make any meaningful measurements.

So you should:
- Check if the wire colors in the rec/reg unit's connector are corresponding to the ones in the socket that it fits into in the harness. I installed a similar unit and IIRC, I had to relocate two of the pins in its connector. Yours might be correct.
- Remove your test leads and connect the rec/reg unit's plug directly to the bike's harness.
- Connect the black and the white wire to your field coil.
- Test the charging circuit with a good and fully charged battery. Start the bike and measure voltage across the batteriy terminals at differnt RPMs
- Listen to and try to understand TT's advice :)

Cheers
Carsten
1976 CB550F