Author Topic: CB550 77-78: PD46A vs PD46C, got both, which should I run?  (Read 2078 times)

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Offline bhh1989

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CB550 77-78: PD46A vs PD46C, got both, which should I run?
« on: October 20, 2013, 12:40:09 PM »
I have a 78 cb550 which came with the stock pd46c carbs (I believe I got that right, it has a second set of tubes connecting each carb and an extra fuel nipple, prime?) I just bought a spare 77 motor that came with pd46a carbs. I completely rebuilt the C's and the A's look ok, bike runs well with the A's but not with the C's but that's another issue due to my new 4 into 1 and no airbox at the moment (can't find carb to box boots for the life of me),

What, in your opinion, is a better carb rack, A's or C's? I am leaning towards the A's because they don't have these extra fuel lines which I don't even know what do on the C's. I assume the petcock (which I also don't have) is supposed to have a prime option, so now the bike won't run right with these carbs and a simple petcock. Sucks because I ultrasonic cleaned and completely rebuilt the C rack.

I am new to these sohc 4's, much more in depth than I was prepared for.

Offline Deltarider

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Re: CB550 77-78: PD46A vs PD46C, got both, which should I run?
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2013, 12:46:17 PM »
I'd consult the Parts List to be sure. I remember different K3s had different floatlevels (12,5mm and 14,5mm). For the rest there wasn't much difference.
I don't know of any extra fuel nipple. Please check http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=130218.msg1456743#msg1456743 .
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 12:55:18 PM by Deltarider »
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB550 77-78: PD46A vs PD46C, got both, which should I run?
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2013, 01:57:07 PM »
The carbs are only part of the puzzle.  The exhaust type, air filter, and engine mods are as equally important.

There is no "better" rack, between the C and A internal fuel metering set up.  One is better matched to the exhaust, and intake stock set up.  A was for the 77 and C was for the 78.  Changes between them were mostly due to the pressures put upon the model's importation by the EPA.  For non stock applications, I would prefer the 78's with the larger pilot jet.  But, jets and fuel metering adjustments are changeable among both carb sets, and can easily be modified to equal the other.

The two nipples you see are for fuel on the larger one and an air vent hose on the smaller one.  The smaller one provides air pressure to the carb bowls for pushing fuel through the gas metering jets.
The one without gets the same pressure through the bowl overflow tubes.

There is no "prime" port on either carb.   They both use choke plate butterflies on the carb inlets to effect fuel enrichment for starting.

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Offline harisuluv

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Re: CB550 77-78: PD46A vs PD46C, got both, which should I run?
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2013, 02:00:02 PM »
I think you are talking about the air ducting between the carbs?  The aluminum tubes are the fuel lines, that is the only connection for fuel between the carbs and the 550 had no accelerator pump.  On the later model they had tubes between to allow for air pressure equalization so the bowls could fill and empty properly.  On the earlier PD model this was actually done the same way.  However if you look closely where that ducting is there is a very very tiny hole that serves the same function.  Problem is that this hole is so small that it is easily clogged by dust or debris which would negate the function.  That's why they went to the other style with the connecting tubes so that it is a closed circuit.

As for which one is better I would go with whichever is approriate for your model.  There is a float height difference between the two also.

Offline bhh1989

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Re: CB550 77-78: PD46A vs PD46C, got both, which should I run?
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2013, 02:21:29 PM »
Yea I need to set the float height or check it, I have read a good deal about that and how there was an error in the Honda manual as to the correct height. It's currently only running on choke the C's and barely with choke off. I'd say I have some main jetting and needle clip work to do.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB550 77-78: PD46A vs PD46C, got both, which should I run?
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2013, 04:00:36 PM »
Yea I need to set the float height or check it, I have read a good deal about that and how there was an error in the Honda manual as to the correct height. It's currently only running on choke the C's and barely with choke off. I'd say I have some main jetting and needle clip work to do.

You need to pull out the pilot jets and clean them, if it will only run on choke.
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Offline Ichiban 4

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Re: CB550 77-78: PD46A vs PD46C, got both, which should I run?
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2013, 05:03:15 PM »
Guys..

Don't mean to hijack this thread..(this is mainly to Lloyd)..but was wondering about my '77 550K..and the choke settings on it. 

Recently changed plugs from NGK D 8's to D 7's..which has helped with this..but have always had to choke the heck out of it to get started.  Then have to run pretty much on 3/4's choke for about 15 minutes..before I can open choke all the way.  This is in either hot or cold weather (it gets a lot colder here in Colo. than Calif..Lloyd BTW). Even after it's run/gotten warmed-up..if it's sat for more than 1/2 hour..need to choke it again to get started.

This simply seems a bit too cold blooded to me..but remember that the CB 175 and 450 I had in California..also seemed to be cold blooded this way.  My question is: Is this pretty much standard operating conditions for the 550's?  Or is there something more I should do about jetting..et. al..to help the situation? (everything else is stock..air filter..exhaust..etc.).

Thanks for any further enlightenment..

Ichi
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 05:05:43 PM by Ichiban 4 »
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Offline bhh1989

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Re: CB550 77-78: PD46A vs PD46C, got both, which should I run?
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2013, 05:18:53 PM »
Yea I need to set the float height or check it, I have read a good deal about that and how there was an error in the Honda manual as to the correct height. It's currently only running on choke the C's and barely with choke off. I'd say I have some main jetting and needle clip work to do.

You need to pull out the pilot jets and clean them, if it will only run on choke.

I love forums.. Made sure all the gas was out, heated around each pilot and pulled them all, EVERY ONE CLOGGED SOLID. Took forever to get the hard junk out. The bike ran before I cleaned them!! Maybe the ultrasonic and vinegar made corrosion or something, but they are all clear now! Now I gotta put the needles back to stock and retry. Thanks!!!!

Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB550 77-78: PD46A vs PD46C, got both, which should I run?
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2013, 10:47:06 PM »
Ichi,
The PD carbed Cb550s are more frugal with fuel mixtures than the CB550's with the earlier carb style.  I do have to operate with more choke and for a bit longer on my 78.  The 78 also gets better gas mileage than the 550s with earlier style carbs.  I note that the 77 has #38 Pilots, while the 78 has #42.  I haven't run a 77 through a warm up cycle, personally.  But, I can imagine it being more lean and needing more choke to coax more fuel out of the smaller pilot jet.

If you had the inclination, you could up the pilot jets to #42.  And that should help with the cold throttle response.  Alternately, you could try opening the pilot screw another turn or 1/2 turn outward, just to test the lean idle mix assumption.  It should improve throttle response, especially during warm up.

The D7's really are better for the CB550 unless you plan to do flat out runs in the desert high heat.

Another item of note is the fast idle cam adjustment.  It is proportional to the amount of choke applied.  Full choke works out to about 3500-4000 shortly after it warms up.  This can be adjusted so that less throttle up is achieved at full choke.  This allows more driveability at partial choke without excessive throttle racing.
I don't like to race a cold engine, so it is natural for me to push the knob inwards to reduce the idle speed.  However, this also reduces the amount of choke applied and leans the mixture for iffy operation when cold.    The older carbs have the choke plates operate independent of throttle control.  So, it is easy to find a choke setting that yields descent throttle up response, and the idle speed controlled by the twist grip as well.  An equivalent arrangement can be made to the PD carbs choke/idle speed adjustment to achieve similar enrichment boost.  It's a bit fiddly, because you get only one shot at a totally cold engine.  So, it may take several tweaks to get the balance right.  But, once done, it works out quite conveniently.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Bankerdanny

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Re: CB550 77-78: PD46A vs PD46C, got both, which should I run?
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2013, 01:02:46 PM »
Guys..

Don't mean to hijack this thread..(this is mainly to Lloyd)..but was wondering about my '77 550K..and the choke settings on it. 

Recently changed plugs from NGK D 8's to D 7's..which has helped with this..but have always had to choke the heck out of it to get started.  Then have to run pretty much on 3/4's choke for about 15 minutes..before I can open choke all the way.  This is in either hot or cold weather (it gets a lot colder here in Colo. than Calif..Lloyd BTW). Even after it's run/gotten warmed-up..if it's sat for more than 1/2 hour..need to choke it again to get started.

This simply seems a bit too cold blooded to me..but remember that the CB 175 and 450 I had in California..also seemed to be cold blooded this way.  My question is: Is this pretty much standard operating conditions for the 550's?  Or is there something more I should do about jetting..et. al..to help the situation? (everything else is stock..air filter..exhaust..etc.).

Thanks for any further enlightenment..

Ichi

My '77 rarely needed choke for more than a couple blocks, particularly in the summer, and it only ever needed full choke to start when completely cold.

What altitude are you at? The PD's run leaner than older carbs, so if you are well above sea level you may need to adjuts your air screws for a richer mixture in general.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: CB550 77-78: PD46A vs PD46C, got both, which should I run?
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2013, 02:23:30 PM »
My '77 rarely needed choke for more than a couple blocks, particularly in the summer, and it only ever needed full choke to start when completely cold.
Was this bike completely stock? ...and were the IMS screws leaned for max idle RPM?  Did this behavior remain with a new air filter?

What altitude are you at? The PD's run leaner than older carbs, so if you are well above sea level you may need to adjuts your air screws for a richer mixture in general.
The PD carbs have mixture screws rather than just air bleed screws.

FYI, the air gets thinner at higher altitudes, making less oxygen available.  This makes carbs tune for sea level become more rich with ascent.  Airplanes have a mixture knob to lean mixtures at higher altitudes.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.